Employer wants us back on site🙁

irelandrover

I really dont understand the love of the hybrid system. It seems the worst option from an employee perspective.
100% WFO means you don't need to have a home office. 100% means you don't need to live anywhere close to the office so you can live in cheaper areas.

A hybrid system means you have to remain close enough to the office while also having to provide a home office. A fixed day hybrid system is clearly the worst option of all.

irelandrover

irelandrover wrote: »

I really dont understand the love of the hybrid system. It seems the worst option from an employee perspective.
100% WFO means you don't need to have a home office. 100% means you don't need to live anywhere close to the office so you can live in cheaper areas.

A hybrid system means you have to remain close enough to the office while also having to provide a home office. A fixed day hybrid system is clearly the worst option of all.

Depends on circumstances I suppose. It works for me, I live relatively near the office anyway so the odd day or two here and there is fine with me. I'd also have the option of full time wfh if needed so could move further away from the office if I wanted. Hybrid mightn't work for some though.

TP_CM

TP_CM wrote: »

That sounds like mgmt who have failed to adapt. People are so obsessed with the most ideal option that they are willing to throw away an amazing new way of living simply for that. They want parents to spend less time with kids. They want people to go back to Centra rolls. They want people to drop kids off at creches from 7:30am - 6:30pm all over again. That was all fine and well when there was no alternative.

Open a group chat every morning for sporadic questions, have 3 calls daily with video cameras, have better documentation for new joiners with FAQs and frequent mistakes made. Set up video tutorials on Teams which are recorded and can be looked back upon. There's a list the length of my leg of ways to help junior staff.

It may not be ideal depending on your industry, and particularly if mgmt aren't very creative, but if it's 80-90% effective and reduces road traffic, increases family time, allows people to save money and eat more healthily, it's simply a no-brainer. And if people want to go back because they can focus better, don't like their family, or helps them disconnect in the evening, by all means give them the option.

People are learning instruments, languages, completing degrees, all online. There is no excuse for those 3 newbies having learned nothing in a full year. Tell your mgmt to wake up and do their job. God, anyone can be a manager if all they need to do is replicate the model which they inherited. They need to stop lamenting the way things should be or used to be.

I would thank this twice if I could.

Any company who can't train staff online, and worse, who can see staff aren't getting trained properly but aren't fixing the issue, are simply badly managed.

irelandrover

irelandrover wrote: »

I really dont understand the love of the hybrid system. It seems the worst option from an employee perspective.
100% WFO means you don't need to have a home office. 100% means you don't need to live anywhere close to the office so you can live in cheaper areas.

A hybrid system means you have to remain close enough to the office while also having to provide a home office. A fixed day hybrid system is clearly the worst option of all.

I wouldn't say it's the worst option, some people clearly feel going to the office for the full 5 days is worse but i think in general some people are so desperate for any improvement in their working conditions that they'll take the hybrid as it's better than nothing.

C3PO

wicklow_hunter wrote: »

Management are not following government guidelines. Leo was talking about august for office workers to return

Are pharma companies not considered to be "essential" in which case those guidelines do not apply?

irelandrover

Deleted User wrote: »

Depends on circumstances I suppose. It works for me, I live relatively near the office anyway so the odd day or two here and there is fine with me. I'd also have the option of full time wfh if needed so could move further away from the office if I wanted. Hybrid mightn't work for some though.

Fair enough. Obviously 100% WFO with a long commute is the worst. A hybrid suits me as well as i live close to the office and have space for an office.

However if i was picking a job now and needing to buy a house then hybrid would be the worst. with 2 kids i need three bedrooms. With 100% WFH i can buy a cheaper 4 bedroom house far from work and use one as an office. With 100% WFO then i can buy a 3 bedroom house close to work. With a hybrid i need a 4 bedroom house close to work.

C3PO

irelandrover wrote: »

I really dont understand the love of the hybrid system. It seems the worst option from an employee perspective.
100% WFO means you don't need to have a home office. 100% means you don't need to live anywhere close to the office so you can live in cheaper areas.

A hybrid system means you have to remain close enough to the office while also having to provide a home office. A fixed day hybrid system is clearly the worst option of all.

I love working a "hybrid" model - suits me perfectly!

Brendog

To be honest OP its the employers decision when they want staff back in the office.
I know in my office they have requested our staff return to the office and are aiming for a 5 day week by the end of the summer.
In saying that, they facilitated extra seating so that everyone is at least 1 metre apart.


You're well within your rights to fight it, but at the end of the day its the employers choice and they have the last say...

BronsonTB

Right to request WFH being discussed in terms of law changes. But that will take time.

Worth keeping an eye on OP as even though not an option now, it may in the future. For now it is better to return as no legal right not to.



(ref Down the page on this gov link)

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/6b64a-tanaiste-signs-code-of-practice-on-right-to-disconnect/

HillCloudHop

I would love to have your problem. I've been working on site everyday during the pandemic.

BronsonTB

TP_CM wrote: »

That sounds like mgmt who have failed to adapt. People are so obsessed with the most ideal option that they are willing to throw away an amazing new way of living simply for that. They want parents to spend less time with kids. They want people to go back to Centra rolls. They want people to drop kids off at creches from 7:30am - 6:30pm all over again. That was all fine and well when there was no alternative.

Open a group chat every morning for sporadic questions, have 3 calls daily with video cameras, have better documentation for new joiners with FAQs and frequent mistakes made. Set up video tutorials on Teams which are recorded and can be looked back upon. There's a list the length of my leg of ways to help junior staff.

It may not be ideal depending on your industry, and particularly if mgmt aren't very creative, but if it's 80-90% effective and reduces road traffic, increases family time, allows people to save money and eat more healthily, it's simply a no-brainer. And if people want to go back because they can focus better, don't like their family, or helps them disconnect in the evening, by all means give them the option.

People are learning instruments, languages, completing degrees, all online. There is no excuse for those 3 newbies having learned nothing in a full year. Tell your mgmt to wake up and do their job. God, anyone can be a manager if all they need to do is replicate the model which they inherited. They need to stop lamenting the way things should be or used to be.

What a fantastic post! Won't work for all but certainly should be adopted where it is possible. Sometimes management can be older & alot less willing to change or consider anything other than what they see as the old 'Norm' returning. I'd imagine newer companies with younger management will have better options & flexibility.

BluePlanet

It's probably because management is crap, and they presume everybody is dossing and want to have you back in the office to 'keep an eye on'.
Which is basically justifying their existence?

Or, the business is paying over the odds to rent the space and it's looking like the big elephant in the room on the books, so force everybody back in to justify the expenditure.

Antares35

irelandrover wrote: »

I really dont understand the love of the hybrid system. It seems the worst option from an employee perspective.
100% WFO means you don't need to have a home office. 100% means you don't need to live anywhere close to the office so you can live in cheaper areas.

A hybrid system means you have to remain close enough to the office while also having to provide a home office. A fixed day hybrid system is clearly the worst option of all.

Depends on how many days you are expected to do in the office. Two for example was my max before I walked. Thankfully didn't have to. But I'd be willing to commute two days in exchange for being at home the next five. And as an alternative to five days in the office, for me it still wins. I see your point re office space though and that is a consideration.

irelandrover

Antares35 wrote: »

Depends on how many days you are expected to do in the office. Two for example was my max before I walked. Thankfully didn't have to. But I'd be willing to commute two days in exchange for being at home the next five. And as an alternative to five days in the office, for me it still wins. I see your point re office space though and that is a consideration.

I think i should have been a bit clearer. For the people who were doing a long commute then a hybrid is better than their current situation, so of course they are happy.

I was really talking if you were taking up a new job. If you can WFH 100% then you are free to choose a house in any location based on your needs such as family/price instead of based on your office. If you are WFO 100% then you do not need to buy a house that has space for an office. If you are hybrid then you need to buy a house close to work that has space for an office.

Antares35

irelandrover wrote: »

I think i should have been a bit clearer. For the people who were doing a long commute then a hybrid is better than their current situation, so of course they are happy.

I was really talking if you were taking up a new job. If you can WFH 100% then you are free to choose a house in any location based on your needs such as family/price instead of based on your office. If you are WFO 100% then you do not need to buy a house that has space for an office. If you are hybrid then you need to buy a house close to work that has space for an office.

Again it depends and is different for everyone. I haven't changed jobs but I was willing to increase my commuting time in exchange for a hybrid. So, we are living in Dublin and I was spending an hour each way to and from the office..I'd be willing to increase that up to two hours if it means I get to keep my current job which I am happy in, and I don't mind buying further away and commuting more those two days. And yes we will need somewhere with space for an office, so for us as a couple with soon to be two kids, that translates into a four bed house.

AdrianII

Good thread this. It really as people split down down middle.

The social aspect I definitely needed back and the office brings that. The ask for people go back to normal as if the last 16 months didn't happen is crazy.

I run a small team and I must say it is very hard to gage what is going on at times, I also find that the old brainstorming sessions are badly missed. Training new staff is extremely hard and then when they are remote you don't know if they are sinking or swimming.

On the otherwise, I think some people are working there bums off and removing WFH will feel like a punishment asking them to commute and sit in traffic again.

But if the employers makes a decision end of,. We too have been told end of August, no mention of hybrid, back in office from what I see. Which is disappointing.

purplefields

The DayDream wrote: »

You're not working with the public, so temperature checks at the door, masks, screens, sanitizer, and learning to step back not forward when conversing with a colleague and you should be fine.

That's what we do at my work, we also serve about 20 members of the public and share 3 workstations amongst 6 of us on each day. We have been back open since last August (essential service). No one has gotten sick and we are in a county with high cases.

You have to have robust measures in place and there has to be a manager willing to be a pain in the hole to remind everyone about them. My cousin worked in a place didn't take it seriously enough, he caught covid from a customer but recovered.

16 people in an office you can manage keeping measures in place easily and the only danger is they are totally asymptomatic, no fever etc. I take temperatures of customers and colleagues all day one day a week, never had anyone enter the building not pass the temp check and as I said we didnt get any outbreaks. People also are very aware of the symptoms at this stage.

The symptoms are changing.
Fever, Cough, loss of smell are Alpha. Delta is different.

I didn't like working in a office before. I certainly wouldn't like it now. Sharing an enclosed space with 16 others, exhaling all over the place - no thanks.

L1011

The DayDream wrote: »

so temperature checks at the door,

These really do nothing except give a small number of people a sense of security. People ill enough to set one off should have already stayed at home

Some of the automated ones don't work with masks on, meaning people are handling their masks and going unmasked in busy areas. This makes them worse than useless.

Red Silurian

Office workers who can work from home are supposed to do so under govt guidance, however there is no law stating this has to happen so you've just got to do what your employer requests

I say this as somebody who has been back in the office 5 days a week since last July

There is new legislation due to come in before the end of the year as announced in January, but I doubt the govt will be bothered when the time comes to push the legislation through

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-laws-will-give-employees-in-the-state-the-option-to-permanently-work-from-home-1.4458770

purplefields

Red Silurian wrote: »

There is new legislation due to come in before the end of the year as announced in January, but I doubt the govt will be bothered when the time comes to push the legislation through

I'm curious as to why you believe the government won't bother with this? - Commercial property prices, or some other reason?

I would have thought that even the environmental impact of people not stuck in traffic would be reason enough.

JimmyVik

Ours pushing for a return too.
We were all supposed to go back a couple of times now, but then further lockdowns happened just before.

AdrianII

AdrianII wrote: »

I run a small team and I must say it is very hard to gage what is going on at times, I also find that the old brainstorming sessions are badly missed.

I also run a team and I don't understand why you might be finding it hard. I have a video meeting at least once a day with them, where they share their work and I give feedback. I honestly don't see any major difference between meeting in person or a video conference.

Are people just totally blinkered to how different offices work? Some offices have massive amounts of cooperation between staff that's severely limited online, and others don't. .

Pretending to not understand how other offices don't handle wfh as well as your own is tiresome and frankly makes a person look stupid.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are people just totally blinkered to how different offices work? Some offices have massive amounts of cooperation between staff that's severely limited online, and others don't. .

Pretending to not understand how other offices don't handle wfh as well as your own is tiresome and frankly makes a person look stupid.

Thinly veiled attack. Well, not really.

Let me have a go at that. I think if you can't manage your team remotely then you're terrible at your job and it could make you "look stupid".

There. Am I doing it right?

Jackben75

Deleted User wrote: »

Are people just totally blinkered to how different offices work? Some offices have massive amounts of cooperation between staff that's severely limited online, and others don't. .

Pretending to not understand how other offices don't handle wfh as well as your own is tiresome and frankly makes a person look stupid.

rubbish, with the technology available now, wfh should make no difference at all. If an employer doesn't offer such technology, that is their issue and any staff thus having to go back should either take it or move on to a company that does offer wfh /modern technology. Any company that offers the technology and demand employees come back, for me, display a lack of trust in their employees, perhaps warranted, perhaps not. Either way, management need to wake up and adapt in some shape or form. Personally i think employees should be given a choice, if they choose to wfh, let their work speak and if it doesn't, bye bye. easier said thsan done of course

purplefields

Deleted User wrote: »

Are people just totally blinkered to how different offices work? Some offices have massive amounts of cooperation between staff that's severely limited online, and others don't. .

Pretending to not understand how other offices don't handle wfh as well as your own is tiresome and frankly makes a person look stupid.

I don't understand how certain offices can't handle WFH. I'm not pretending either.
Offices are just people sitting at desks, using computers.

purplefields

purplefields wrote: »

I don't understand how certain offices can't handle WFH. I'm not pretending either.
Offices are just people sitting at desks, using computers.

I think WFH separates the wheat from the chaff. It exposes bad managers for all to see. The appearance of doing your job well through social manipulation simply doesn't work in a remote working environment.

So I understand why some managers yearn for WFO.

irelandrover

Jackben75 wrote: »

rubbish, with the technology available now, wfh should make no difference at all. If an employer doesn't offer such technology, that is their issue and any staff thus having to go back should either take it or move on to a company that does offer wfh /modern technology. Any company that offers the technology and demand employees come back, for me, display a lack of trust in their employees, perhaps warranted, perhaps not. Either way, management need to wake up and adapt in some shape or form. Personally i think employees should be given a choice, if they choose to wfh, let their work speak and if it doesn't, bye bye. easier said thsan done of course

I learned a lot when i started from overhearing my colleagues talking. i sat in the middle as that is the way you hear about issues. I sat beside them watching what they were doing. its the way i train the other staff now. yes i could set up a 30 minute video call a day. that costs me 2,5 hours a week. And it isn't as efficient as them sitting beside me. We've prevented a few big issues in projects because someone overheard something. That doesn't happen in WFH.

i think it will be really interesting to see how well trained staff are during this pandemic compared to previous. In my own experience the staff hired during the pandemic arent as well trained up. Training plans will be improved but i still dont think it will be the same as being in the office. We already had a lot of trainings online but some were needed to be done in person.

For my manager it doesnt matter whether i am in the office or not as i still have the 30 minute meeting fortnightly with them. For my direct colleagues and the people i train it is far far better if we are in the office.

Rrrrrr2

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Could have gone in and collected some of those things from the main office if you needed them?

Yeah, OP, you could have gone in and stolen the printer/photocopier and all the toners and ink for them; a few reams of paper won't be missed. Not sure how you can collect the light and heat you were referring to though.......


Half the country can't wait to get back to the workplace. The other half are dreading it because of the first half. Any middle manager who feels they need to be literally overlooking their staff is a) a crap manager, b) a crap employee, c) afraid that their job is under threat if the company doesn't need people to manage the other employees or d) all of the above.

Red Silurian

purplefields wrote: »

There is new legislation due to come in before the end of the year as announced in January, but I doubt the govt will be bothered when the time comes to push the legislation through

I'm curious as to why you believe the government won't bother with this? - Commercial property prices, or some other reason?

I would have thought that even the environmental impact of people not stuck in traffic would be reason enough.

I think most businesses will resist, mainly the corporations who want their untrustworthy staff back in the office and the SMEs down the local shop that rely on office workers for the lunchtime boost...

Also I think if they were committed to such a change they would have legislated for it to come into effect back in January, not give a time frame of "by the end of the year." Also the general timing of it coincided with an increase in office workers complaining that they were being dragged into the office against public health guidelines so I think there was a "quiet now" aspect to it as well