Employer wants us back on site🙁

BrianD3

Looks like we have a few martyrs as well as the usual bad managers posting here with a bit of good old "attack the OP" thrown in.

"I've been back all along, suck it up princess" is a rubbish argument.

While the public health guidance is just that and the HSA won't get involved, that's not particularly relevant. It's like weather warnings - schools get closed during them not because it's the law but because of fear of litigation.

Ask yourselves what happens if:

• The employer orders staff back in advance of public health guidelines
• There is strong and objective evidence that staff don't need to be back
• There is a Covid outbreak in the workplace
• Someone who would have avoided it had they been WFH ends up very ill and is left with long lasting effects.

What is the employer going to do - order staff back and then get them to sign a disclaimer saying that it's not the employers fault if they catch Covid in the office. Actually, some employers would probably attempt that.

Temperature checks at the door and 2 metre spacing are not good enough. This is like doing a H&S risk assessment and going straight to PPE instead of examining whether the activity is necessary in the first place.

In practice, employers have too much power and there are always veiled or not so veiled threats against anyone who takes a case to the WRC, sues, blows a whistle etc. They are blacklisted, shunned, managed out. This is why employers love martyrs and wage slaves with families and mortgages who live paycheque to paycheque. The response to "jump" is, inevitably, "how high".

Mirafiori

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, OP, you could have gone in and stolen the printer/photocopier and all the toners and ink for them; a few reams of paper won't be missed. Not sure how you can collect the light and heat you were referring to though.......


Half the country can't wait to get back to the workplace. The other half are dreading it because of the first half. Any middle manager who feels they need to be literally overlooking their staff is a) a crap manager, b) a crap employee, c) afraid that their job is under threat if the company doesn't need people to manage the other employees or d) all of the above.

I don't think important policy decisions like this are being made by middle managers. Most of the announcements I have heard (including my own employer) are coming from the top.

Red Silurian

BrianD3 wrote: »

Looks like we have a few martyrs as well as the usual bad managers posting here with a bit of good old "attack the OP" thrown in.

"I've been back all along, suck it up princess" is a rubbish argument.

While the public health guidance is just that and the HSA won't get involved, that's not particularly relevant. It's like weather warnings - schools get closed during them not because it's the law but because of fear of litigation.

Ask yourselves what happens if:

• The employer orders staff back in advance of public health guidelines
• There is strong and objective evidence that staff don't need to be back
• There is a Covid outbreak in the workplace
• Someone who would have avoided it had they been WFH ends up very ill and is left with long lasting effects.

What is the employer going to do - order staff back and then get them to sign a disclaimer saying that it's not the employers fault if they catch Covid in the office. Actually, some employers would probably attempt that.

Temperature checks at the door and 2 metre spacing are not good enough. This is like doing a H&S risk assessment and going straight to PPE instead of examining whether the activity is necessary in the first place.

In practice, employers have too much power and there are always veiled or not so veiled threats against anyone who takes a case to the WRC, sues, blows a whistle etc. They are blacklisted, shunned, managed out. This is why employers love martyrs and wage slaves with families and mortgages who live paycheque to paycheque. The response to "jump" is, inevitably, "how high".

We have to fill in an online declaration every morning and get our temp scanned on the way in the door, that protects us against COVID according to the boss. We also have essential workers letters claiming (falsley) that we can't do our work from home

Mirafiori

Mirafiori wrote: »

I don't think important policy decisions like this are being made by middle managers. Most of the announcements I have heard (including my own employer) are coming from the top.

No, they're most certainly not being made by middle managers. But it's the middle managers, in particular those who see themselves as the arbiters of good behaviour, who are squirming in their chairs as they realise that people can work effectively without some min-Hitler breathing own their neck all day.

Dav010

BrianD3 wrote: »

Looks like we have a few martyrs as well as the usual bad managers posting here with a bit of good old "attack the OP" thrown in.

"I've been back all along, suck it up princess" is a rubbish argument.

While the public health guidance is just that and the HSA won't get involved, that's not particularly relevant. It's like weather warnings - schools get closed during them not because it's the law but because of fear of litigation.

Ask yourselves what happens if:

• The employer orders staff back in advance of public health guidelines
• There is strong and objective evidence that staff don't need to be back
• There is a Covid outbreak in the workplace
• Someone who would have avoided it had they been WFH ends up very ill and is left with long lasting effects.

What is the employer going to do - order staff back and then get them to sign a disclaimer saying that it's not the employers fault if they catch Covid in the office. Actually, some employers would probably attempt that.

Temperature checks at the door and 2 metre spacing are not good enough. This is like doing a H&S risk assessment and going straight to PPE instead of examining whether the activity is necessary in the first place.

In practice, employers have too much power and there are always veiled or not so veiled threats against anyone who takes a case to the WRC, sues, blows a whistle etc. They are blacklisted, shunned, managed out. This is why employers love martyrs and wage slaves with families and mortgages who live paycheque to paycheque. The response to "jump" is, inevitably, "how high".

I would have thought schools get shut down for child safety reasons and the fact that some schools may not be able to mitigate against the risks. If they could, they don’t shut, hence why some stay open while some close.

We are going to have to live with Covid, there will never be a Covid risk free environment. But if employers follow Covid safety protocols, the risk of infection is lowered, hence why we have had so few work related outbreaks.

In relation to which model works best for employer/employee, that will be debatable, and no doubt contentious for years to come. But, if your workplace is your office, then it is the employer’s prerogative to decide whether and when you return to it. As of today, there is no law preventing this, and unless someone can provide a link to one, no law to prosecute any employer who brings employees back to an office which follows safety protocols.

purplefields

Deleted User wrote: »

Half the country can't wait to get back to the workplace. The other half are dreading it because of the first half. Any middle manager who feels they need to be literally overlooking their staff is a) a crap manager, b) a crap employee, c) afraid that their job is under threat if the company doesn't need people to manage the other employees or d) all of the above.

That's about the size of it!
although maybe different proportions to 50:50

This thread makes me shudder when I think of office life. I'd forgotten about all the politics and insufferable personalities.

Rrrrrr2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah, OP, you could have gone in and stolen the printer/photocopier and all the toners and ink for them; a few reams of paper won't be missed. Not sure how you can collect the light and heat you were referring to though.......


Half the country can't wait to get back to the workplace. The other half are dreading it because of the first half. Any middle manager who feels they need to be literally overlooking their staff is a) a crap manager, b) a crap employee, c) afraid that their job is under threat if the company doesn't need people to manage the other employees or d) all of the above.

This is the problem with so many employees these days- literally everything is “a problem” and for someone else to solve. Of course they could have went back and collected stationary? What would they have done while in the office? Bought their own? And I did say “some”. Clearly if a small printer etc is needed you speak to the management and see what is possible. Like any normal communicative human being would do

Lux23

Whatever about COVID, demanding that people head back to the office en masse is probably going to result in a load of other respiratory infections, tummy upsets like when kids start school!

PHG

irelandrover wrote: »

I learned a lot when i started from overhearing my colleagues talking. i sat in the middle as that is the way you hear about issues. I sat beside them watching what they were doing. its the way i train the other staff now. yes i could set up a 30 minute video call a day. that costs me 2,5 hours a week. And it isn't as efficient as them sitting beside me. We've prevented a few big issues in projects because someone overheard something. That doesn't happen in WFH.
.

A properly run Daily Stand Up prevents those issues instead of having to ease drop on conversations.

Rrrrrr2

Red Silurian wrote: »

I think most businesses will resist, mainly the corporations who want their untrustworthy staff back in the office and the SMEs down the local shop that rely on office workers for the lunchtime boost...

Also I think if they were committed to such a change they would have legislated for it to come into effect back in January, not give a time frame of "by the end of the year." Also the general timing of it coincided with an increase in office workers complaining that they were being dragged into the office against public health guidelines so I think there was a "quiet now" aspect to it as well

I wonder are there many problems going on with poor employees (ultimately ruin it for the genuine ones) - anecdotally again doesn’t seem to be the case and could be dealt with on an individual basis

Manic Moran

Jackben75 wrote: »

rubbish, with the technology available now, wfh should make no difference at all. If an employer doesn't offer such technology, that is their issue and any staff thus having to go back should either take it or move on to a company that does offer wfh /modern technology. Any company that offers the technology and demand employees come back, for me, display a lack of trust in their employees, perhaps warranted, perhaps not. Either way, management need to wake up and adapt in some shape or form. Personally i think employees should be given a choice, if they choose to wfh, let their work speak and if it doesn't, bye bye. easier said thsan done of course

Unfortunately, unless you want an "always on" sort of environment, there are always 'moments of opportunity" which are missed when working remotely.

If you want to talk to someone, you schedule a meeting, call them on Zoom, whatever. But you have first to know that there is something to talk about in the first place.

It is all but unlikely to have something like "I was at the vending machine, and I ran into George in that product group over yonder who was talking to Jane about this new idea they were considering proposing. That has given my an idea of my own for our project..."

We also have had issues with bringing new hires up to speed. Mark me down under the 'hybrid' camp. There is still merit, especially in environments which require creativity, to having everyone together in the office on occasion, and there is an efficiency to in-person communication which even the best VR can't provide.

irelandrover

PHG wrote: »

A properly run Daily Stand Up prevents those issues instead of having to ease drop on conversations.

We have project daily stand ups. We do not have cross project daily stand ups.

Our office is set up so we sit with our discipline. Projects are made up of multi discipline teams. We've tried the other way and it just wasn't as successful.

PHG

irelandrover wrote: »

We have project daily stand ups. We do not have cross project daily stand ups.

Our office is set up so we sit with our discipline. Projects are made up of multi discipline teams. We've tried the other way and it just wasn't as successful.

You mentioned your team.

If there are cross dependencies between teams then Scrum masters or SPOC between each should be in contact with each other.

I'm not advocating staying at home 100% as grads will be the main ones to suffer. I'm more of a 2 day a week person or week on week off.

We have found retrospectives and refinements have solved nearly all issues. There will always be something that gets through the cracks no matter what

Jackben75

irelandrover wrote: »

I learned a lot when i started from overhearing my colleagues talking. i sat in the middle as that is the way you hear about issues. I sat beside them watching what they were doing. its the way i train the other staff now. yes i could set up a 30 minute video call a day. that costs me 2,5 hours a week. And it isn't as efficient as them sitting beside me. We've prevented a few big issues in projects because someone overheard something. That doesn't happen in WFH.

i think it will be really interesting to see how well trained staff are during this pandemic compared to previous. In my own experience the staff hired during the pandemic arent as well trained up. Training plans will be improved but i still dont think it will be the same as being in the office. We already had a lot of trainings online but some were needed to be done in person.

For my manager it doesnt matter whether i am in the office or not as i still have the 30 minute meeting fortnightly with them. For my direct colleagues and the people i train it is far far better if we are in the office.

sounds like piss poor communication in your team. You shouldn't need to overhear things. Have a daily 15 min standup, that should sort it alone.

Jackben75

Manic Moran wrote: »

Unfortunately, unless you want an "always on" sort of environment, there are always 'moments of opportunity" which are missed when working remotely.

If you want to talk to someone, you schedule a meeting, call them on Zoom, whatever. But you have first to know that there is something to talk about in the first place.

It is all but unlikely to have something like "I was at the vending machine, and I ran into George in that product group over yonder who was talking to Jane about this new idea they were considering proposing. That has given my an idea of my own for our project..."

We also have had issues with bringing new hires up to speed. Mark me down under the 'hybrid' camp. There is still merit, especially in environments which require creativity, to having everyone together in the office on occasion, and there is an efficiency to in-person communication which even the best VR can't provide.

maybe there is an argument for training etc, however it is very doable with the right tools/tech. As for the vending machine, i don't buy that. You have happier workers, whom are given the choice, some are more productive working remotely, others maybe not but the choice should be given. Times have changed. Demanding workers back to an office full time and not giving a choice is nothing but a lack of trust from the employer.

irelandrover

Jackben75 wrote: »

sounds like piss poor communication in your team. You shouldn't need to overhear things. Have a daily 15 min standup, that should sort it alone.

You couldn't cover a project properly in a 15 minute daily stand up. Ours takes a minimum of 30.

The team I was talking about was my competence/discipline team and not my project team.

From your posts you seem to assume that your way of working will sort all problems in every company. I disagree.

In the last 15 months I've seen things that would have been prevented by us being in the office.

PHG

irelandrover wrote: »

You couldn't cover a project properly in a 15 minute daily stand up. Ours takes a minimum of 30.

The team I was talking about was my competence/discipline team and not my project team.

From your posts you seem to assume that your way of working will sort all problems in every company. I disagree.

In the last 15 months I've seen things that would have been prevented by us being in the office.

Not saying yes or no. Every method has flaws. How many in your project team?

irelandrover

PHG wrote: »

Not saying yes or no. Every method has flaws. How many in your project team?

67.

22 in my competence team. 400 in the company and we currently have about 70 ongoing projects across 15 different customers

Jackben75

irelandrover wrote: »

67.

22 in my competence team. 400 in the company and we currently have about 70 ongoing projects across 15 different customers

comes across poorly organised/structured to me, doesn't matter if in an office or wfh. There looks to be a bigger issue here. Fortunately i am retired, however in my time i managed/been involved in multiple projects (agile development approach) on a large scale and 15 mins done fine, you may need to refine or cut in on peoples update at the start but then it should be just fine bar the odd occasion.

JPup

God I found a lot of these comments depressing.

Few office workers need to be in the office 9-5 five days a week. It's 20th century thinking from a time when the technology to work remotely didn't exist. 80%-90% of office staff have been working from home over the past year with record productivity levels. It has been proven beyond all doubt to work at this stage.

Of course some people will want to get back to the old normal, but most won't. And very few really need to. A small portion of the week in the office for collaboration and meetings is ideal for most. Some will need to be in more of course depending on function.

If we go back to the old way of doing things with packed commuter routes at rush hour next winter it would be a disaster in my opinion. Literally throwing away a once-in-a-generation opportunity to improve our society. And for what? Because some dinosaur middle and upper managers are struggling to adapt and are feeling threatened?

Flinty997

It's not a good sign when the water cooler conversations or eves dropping is vital to your job. Though it's often the case.

Flinty997

Jackben75 wrote: »

sounds like piss poor communication in your team. You shouldn't need to overhear things. Have a daily 15 min standup, that should sort it alone.

Depends on the quality of the standup.

Our dept weekly stand up has turned into look what I did, aren't I great. Or just filling the space. Our other section one it's a rambling conversation that has no real structure. Our actual team doesn't have one. You get bits and pieces out if this, but lots of it is irrelevant.

But it's much better than when we were in the office, as we never even did this much back then. You were pretty much siloed on your immediate project or task.

Poor communication is not fixed by location but by people being willing to communicate and learning the value of it.

JimmyVik

irelandrover wrote: »

You couldn't cover a project properly in a 15 minute daily stand up. Ours takes a minimum of 30.

The team I was talking about was my competence/discipline team and not my project team.

From your posts you seem to assume that your way of working will sort all problems in every company. I disagree.

In the last 15 months I've seen things that would have been prevented by us being in the office.

We have seen a lot of that too.
The way WFH is going to go is that a lot of companies will be happy to do that.
Then you will get one p!ss taker who will ruin it for all and WFH is out the window for all employees of the company.
You will definitely not get companies guaranteeing that an employee can WFH forever, so people moving down the country far away from their jobs are taking huge risks there.

Dav010

JimmyVik wrote: »

We have seen a lot of that too.
The way WFH is going to go is that a lot of companies will be happy to do that.
Then you will get one p!ss taker who will ruin it for all and WFH is out the window for all employees of the company.
You will definitely not get companies guaranteeing that an employee can WFH forever, so people moving down the country far away from their jobs are taking huge risks there.

Is that possibly one of the reasons why employers are reluctant to miss the opportunity to return to the office? It will be far more difficult later if wfh doesn’t work out.

Also, I suspect it is a lot easier for employers to provide/ensure one safe office workplace than it is to provide hundreds/thousands of home work spaces. I wonder will employers have to take out liability insurance for employees homes like they do for offices if the home is designated their work space?

Flinty997

Since wfh and moving to the cloud we've had access to phone and video tools we never had before. I've replaced a lot of documentation and training with videos that people actually watch. Where they wouldn't read the docs we had previously.

Also where people wouldn't engage and we'd get some heat for not supporting them. It's hard to argue with a loaf of videos walking through a process. It's also a good way of demonstrating work done to date on a project. Presentations and talks and training can be made available to allb regardless of location and 24/7.

Only for lockdown I don't think we'd have access to those facilities.

JimmyVik

Flinty997 wrote: »

Since wfh and moving to the cloud we've had access to phone and video tools we never had before. I've replaced a lot of documentation and training with videos that people actually watch. Where they wouldn't read the docs we had previously.

Also where people wouldn't engage and we'd get some heat for not supporting them. It's hard to argue with a loaf of videos walking through a process. It's also a good way of demonstrating work done to date on a project. Presentations and talks and training can be made available to allb regardless of location and 24/7.

Only for lockdown I don't think we'd have access to those facilities.

Maybe im the only one, but I find video training is no substitute for face to face training. The info just doesnt sink in for me with videos. Unless its something you've done 50 tomes in the past like AML training.

Flinty997

JimmyVik wrote: »

Maybe im the only one, but I find in person training is no substitute for face to face training. The info just doesnt sink in for me with videos. Unless its something you've done 50 tomes in the past like AML training.

Oh I agree. But since face to face isn't an option and even in normal times you can't have that available 24/7 these are useful addition training resources.

irelandrover

Flinty997 wrote: »

Since wfh and moving to the cloud we've had access to phone and video tools we never had before. I've replaced a lot of documentation and training with videos that people actually watch. Where they wouldn't read the docs we had previously.

Also where people wouldn't engage and we'd get some heat for not supporting them. It's hard to argue with a loaf of videos walking through a process. It's also a good way of demonstrating work done to date on a project. Presentations and talks and training can be made available to allb regardless of location and 24/7.

Only for lockdown I don't think we'd have access to those facilities.

You think that someone in an supervised office wouldn't read a document but while they are home unsupervised they are watching your videos?

The people who would read a document in the office are the people that watch the videos at home. The people that wouldn't read the document are not watching your videos at home.

irelandrover

Jackben75 wrote: »

comes across poorly organised/structured to me, doesn't matter if in an office or wfh. There looks to be a bigger issue here. Fortunately i am retired, however in my time i managed/been involved in multiple projects (agile development approach) on a large scale and 15 mins done fine, you may need to refine or cut in on peoples update at the start but then it should be just fine bar the odd occasion.

You have absolutely no idea how it is organised or structured, you have no idea what is talked about so how you can say it is poor is strange..

We found agile doesn't really work for us since a lot of the items cant be broken down into the short time frames.

Mrs OBumble

Jackben75 wrote: »

comes across poorly organised/structured to me, doesn't matter if in an office or wfh. There looks to be a bigger issue here. Fortunately i am retired, however in my time i managed/been involved in multiple projects (agile development approach) on a large scale and 15 mins done fine, you may need to refine or cut in on peoples update at the start but then it should be just fine bar the odd occasion.

That's great for you in software development, with people who are used to rapid change.

But can you see that this may be different for a Finance department? Or a social housing company? Or a mortgage broker?