Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119311554#Comment_119311554

I did. But I'm going to bed now.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119311479#Comment_119311479

I could imagine, Bailey could only have bribed a local junior lower rank Guard who would have messed up something beyond the knowledge of Gilligan, or before Gilligan got there?

That is if Bailey bribed anybody at all in this matter. It's just a speculative thought as it's beyond imagination that any rage crime would have no DNA at all? That is, if it was a rage crime at all.....

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119311577#Comment_119311577

So...you're making stuff up?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119311577#Comment_119311577

Doesn't Foster claim Bailey was left behind the cordon? So if his DNA was found he had an excuse. Also anyone's prints or DNA found on the gate would not have menat much as people were passing it and using it all the time

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119311596#Comment_119311596

Bailey or anybody visiting Alfie and Shirley could have left DNA in the area. Opening and closing the gate, touching something, leaving prints in the area. This could easily have happened days before the murder. Also, who knows who has touched that brick before the murder as well? After all, somebody must have placed it there at some point? It's probably all difficult to prove and after all these years, it's most likely impossible to make good on all the mishandling of the case by the Guards. And then there is the question about any other murder weapon. After all, how did all that blood end up at her door? She could hardly have walked back and then to the gates again, bleeding....

Also, I wouldn't be certain of the murder site. It could easily have been that the murderer picked up that brick on the way to Sophie's house, knocked her unconscious unexpectedly by a blow of the brick at her entrance door, causing all that blood there, then carried her down near the gates, and delivered further blows. A strong man, like Bailey, could have done that.

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119311466#Comment_119311466

It was dark when the killing took place. How then might the killer have systematically removed any trace of him being at the scene? I am talking about the area where her body lay , not the house. This would be difficult to accomplish in broad daylight. I think he just fluked it, got a lucky break. The local cops had no prior experience of such cases and were clueless about evidence gathering and, crucially ,how to secure the sight until the forensic boys arrived from Dublin. It is probable crucial evidence was never recovered because of this.

Evergreen_7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119311374#Comment_119311374

Yes I’m aware of that, thanks. It’s more nuanced than that when it comes to why people become serial killers, it’s not always planned, it can evolve and they get a taste of it so to speak.

in any case, I don’t believe Bailey is a serial killer, but he’s a narcissist looking for his next ego feed. A bruised ego could absolutely tip his rage into murder, especially after a feed of drink.

or, it could be someone else, but there’s no evidence and if there was it’s been “lost”

Evergreen_7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119311596#Comment_119311596

That’s an old rumour that circulated from the beginning with no proof. Baileys dna wasn’t found anywhere, that’s the problem. None.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119311668#Comment_119311668

These are all good points.

I think the killer has gotten away with murder because he either knew that the local police was totally incompetent of handling the matter, or he was bribing the local police (even blackmailing them if he knew that they were occasionally in on local drug trafficking) or he was a police officer himself, like that often mentioned Guard from Bantry, as one of the theories are going.

It is quite possible that if drug smuggling in the area was happening and Sophie learned about it during her visits to the area, then Bailey would most certainly have known about it in greater and longer detail. He lived in the area all year round, he's a journalist, he knows how to ask questions and how to find things out without asking too obvious questions....

The Ireland I recall back then, wasn't a place of competence and careers, everyone capable and with ambitions emigrated to somewhere. Sorry if this sounds offensive, but this is how I remember Ireland back then. I couldn't see that the local Guards ever had to deal with murder, were familiar how to handle a crime scene or gather evidence, any kind not even DNA. Also the fact that the time of death could never be determined is a form of gross incompetence on part of the police. Somebody having to come from Dublin for that, is just an excuse. I'd say any local doctor could have determined or narrowed down the time of death.

Having no clear time of death, means the time frame for the murder was rather long. The only time of death we have is sometime from the late evening to the early morning. This makes it even harder to investigate, lots of potential suspects with potentially no real alibi and even more room for speculation.

it's never local gardai who do forensics even today they call in the forensic dept. That is why the crimes scenes are and were sealed off . Sophie's body scene was sealed off for the arrival of forensics and they wanted the body moved but were overruled by a local garda

kirk.

Honestly the issue of testing the block now is a complete red herring, nothing of evidential value will come of it

Probably window dressing to make it sound like something new will come up

It's still hard to overlook that bailey has told people that he killed Sophie.

It shouldn't be ignored imo

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119312981#Comment_119312981

It would make sense. I am not that familiar with all the police procedures. However waiting for somebody from Dublin and that, quite some time later on, isn't that professional. I would have expected that forensics would come from Cork, a bit closer than Dublin.

Also, I disagree that Sophie's house and the murder site was "difficult to find for an outsider" as it was often claimed, also in connection to the forensics specialist arriving from Dublin. Somebody who is from anywhere in Europe, ( not North America ) and with a decent sense of direction who can add two and two together can find the place with ease.

A couple of years later, I was at the site myself, found it with ease, same as Jule's house and the one Bailey used as a studio.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119311287#Comment_119311287

If you think there could be an angle like that surely it would be more reasonable to suspect the people we know in the area involved in narcotics... such as Alfie Lyons of the sound sleep.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119313111#Comment_119313111

It would make sense. I am not that familiar with all the police procedures. However waiting for somebody from Dublin and that, quite some time later on, isn't that professional. I would have expected that forensics would come from Cork, a bit closer than Dublin.

The garda forensics team are in Dublin

flanna01

On the night / morning of the murder, the only known facts are these:

1) Sophie had a telephone conversation with her Husband shortly before midnight.

2) The Husband cut this call short for about 15 minutes due to a 'business issue'

3) The Husband rang Sophie back and resumed the conversation.

4) Sophie had laced up her boots before going out to meet her demise - Hence no mad panic to escape the house

5) There was a loaf of bread exposed on the worktop with a knife beside it - Suggesting somebody was eating / preparing to eat.

6) The first Gard on site noted that Sophie had wet blood around her nose - Hinting that the blood hadn't conjealed.

The above, may point at a morning killing as opposed to a night time killing?

Maybe this would explain the speeding car leaving the vicinity early in the morning, overtaking another car on a hairpin bend?

Sophie's murder was an act of sheer rage... You can clobber somebody with a block, watch them fall in a heap, and think ... Oh Fcuk, what have I done.... But the killer continued to smash her face in... In all likely hood until he ran out of breath. This was personal.

Once Sophie was dead, it appears that the killer returned to the house to pull the door to (close it)

Why?

We know there was no money taken, it wasn't a robbery, and there was no struggle inside the house.

Also, one would imagine that Sophie screamed at the top of her lungs when she realised what was happening..

Nobody heard her... Strange?

Polly701

I've always thought this murder was committed in the early morning. Yet one more reason why it was less likely to be Bailey.

I wonder if she saw someone at the gate and went down to investigate?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119315538#Comment_119315538

I think the pathologist also noted that the food Sophie had consumed was consistent with having had breakfast.

The severity of the blows to the head could not only have been rage, they could also have been to "send a message".

That much rage in the early hours of the morning would point to a very deranged mind or a madman.

The speeding car is at least another clue. This part of Ireland isn't a place which is known for hectic lifestyles at any time of the morning, daytime and evenings. A speeding car is certainly out of place, plus the roads are also not made for that as well...... So whoever was speeding had an extraordinary reason for it.

The fact that neither Alfie nor Shirley heard anything is something strange as well. I always thought they were telling lies that they didn't hear anything at all, maybe they were coerced in doing so? Could have been if it was drug trafficking related or if that bent Guard from Bantry was involved....

The killing in the morning would in my opinion also not point to Bailey. I don't think Bailey could have gotten away clean, if he killed Sophie at 7am and returned home at 8am, running the risk of being seen full of blood. 8am would still have been dark at this time of the year, but some people would have been out and about. Even if he took Jule's car, he'd have to clean it, and Jules or one of her guests staying over would probably have been up by then, noticed that the car was missing, etc...

kirk.

What's this message the killer was sending ,?

Drugs and messages , coercion is all fanciful imo

kirk.

My feeling is too many clues point to bailey

Not enough to convict but points in his direction

What was that point in one of the movies where he refused to talk , can't remember what it was but was revealing

joinme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299034#Comment_119299034

Winner 🏆 Best boards post 2022!

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119315696#Comment_119315696

The message the killer could have been sending was "This is what's going to happen to anybody interfering or trying to interfere into my / our affairs".

And those who knew what was going on regarding drug trafficking knew what was meant by that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119315702#Comment_119315702

The problem is that there are way too few clues pointing to Bailey. There are also too few clues pointing at anybody. Focusing on Bailey is also the reason other suspects and motives were never seriously investigated. There isn't even a motive for Bailey, neither weak, nor strong, nothing. No fingerprints, no footprints, no DNA, nothing. If he walked on the roadside to her house, somebody could easily have seen him, especially if the murder was in the morning, if he walked over the hills and countryside, chances were high, he'd left footprints, - not even a fool would have run that risk regardless if the police were looking for footprints, or had competence or not...

flanna01

New person of interest reason for cold case review?

Indo reporting new person of interest is what is driving the cold case review.

This could be interesting..

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119316082#Comment_119316082

Anything of interest behind paywall, or just more flannel?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119316082#Comment_119316082

I do not know who that is or could be? A new person of interest would be somebody else, other than Bailey at least.

I see it impossible by now for a solid conviction in a trial. Also, more than 25 years onwards, people died, moved on, memories faded naturally, also DNA gets older. It would surprise me very much, if any of us could account for what we were doing and whom we were with, one specific night, more than 25 years ago.

If Bailey's blood or DNA can't be matched to the crime scene and the victim at all, his cuts and bruises he's reportedly had are completely irrelevant. Bailey doesn't even need to explain how to kill a turkey or cut down a tree, if he'd gotten the cuts and bruises at the crime scene, it would be there, but it simply isn't, thus he couldn't have gotten them there.

They'd have to match murderer to murder weapon beyond reasonable doubt. Murder weapon was this brick, or is understood to be that brick. By now this brick has been handled by so many people, also that brick was most likely lying out in the open prior to the murder, - thus it could contain anybody's DNA and anybody could have touched it before the murder, theoretically any of us, if we'd been there prior to the murder and touched that brick at some point.

Also, if it came to trial, the police incompetence handling the evidence and the investigation will always be hanging above the prosecution.

kirk.

The new person is someone Marie Farrell saw following Sophie , apparently connected to Daniel du plantier

EdHoven

If I remember correctly the letter written by the person from Schull to Nick Foster was about a watch.

Now if SF saw a watch on Sophie then later the watch was gone to me the killer removed the watch so as not to reveal the time of the attack. That the writer waited until after Alfie's death to send a letter (not an email) makes me think the writer might be SF. Just my opinion.

Suddenly AGS have a person of interest "at the location at the time" there was only Sophie, Alfie and Shirley there.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/new-person-of-interest-triggered-sophie-toscan-du-plantier-cold-case-review-says-top-officer-41827939.html

flanna01

Sophie, Alfie, Shirley and / or the killer as well.

You would imagine that Sophie tried to defend herself during the attack.. The natural reaction is to cover your head with your arms / hands.

And given the severity of the onslaught, it's highly probable that Sophie's watch was broken and stopped at the time of impact?

Suppose the killer did remove the watch? What if this is true???

Why would the killer not want the time of her death known?

What motivation is there to hide the time of death? It has to be relevant to the murderer?

The contents of Sophie's stomach contained nuts & fruits - Akin to a breakfast cereal perhaps?

The lights were off at the house - Morning time perhaps?

The blood around Sophie's nose was noted as being still wet - Not conjealed / Recent death time line?

Sophie had at least two glassed of wine the previous evening with a neighbour, speculation that she had at least another glass back at her home - Her blood and urine showed no alcohol readings - Suggesting that a lot of time had passed before her demise - The next morning perhaps?

Who found the body....? Would it suit their alibi if it was a middle of the night attack? Heard nothing? Seen nothing?

Like Bailey with his cuts & scratches... Didn't Alfie have his hand freshly bandaged on the morning of the murder? I believe he passed it off as a dog bite... Even though they didn't own any dogs? (Later passed of as minding somebody else's dog)?

kirk.

Bailey references the new suspect above on his podcast with mick Clifford

He seems to know that's who it is

DNA is a non runner I reckon unless that actually have DNA for re-examination which they don't

I can't see anything extracted now having any evidential value , it'd just get thrown out

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119316228#Comment_119316228

I've read that in a local paper a while ago, but I wouldn't believe a word Marie Farrell says. She's unserious and has proven that before several times.

Apart from that the police could and should still investigate that lead. I recall it's about a man, who has been seen together with Sophie prior to the murder. That man is apparently part of the Toscan du Plantier family, possibly even related, lives in Paris, and still alive.

However if they checked the airline records or ferry records back then, I'd say, he would have come up, - if the police did a proper job, which is also very much in question.

I still see the husband wanting to kill his wife, with the objective to avoid a costly divorce the highest motive of all, it's most certainly about a huge amount of money, - if it's realistic at all that Daniel hired this guy to kill Sophie is something else. It's as possible as Bailey killing her at this point.

However, that's also difficult to prove today. If this person of interest's DNA is found in the house, or around the evidence they've gathered, he could easily argue, having visited the cottage with Sophie before, as he was a part of the family, etc.... Also flight records from that far back are probably no longer available today and Marie Farrell isn't really a credible source, the court would never believe her.

kirk.

Bailey also says he has given new evidence to Drew Harris lol

There's something so off about bailey it never gets old