Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

Evergreen_7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342526#Comment_119342526

I lean towards a morning killing for a few reasons, but was fully convinced after reading this recent Reddit thread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MurderAtTheCottage/comments/vml384/was_sophie_killed_in_the_morning/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343234#Comment_119343234

Some compelling reasoning there for a morning murder.

“The stomach contained a recently ingested meal apparently mostly fruit including yellow skins and possibly nuts" ... Her husband Daniel said that her habit was to have a glass of wine with cheese. There were partly consumed cheeses covered with glass on top of the fridge in the pantry and a stoppered half consumed bottle of red wine, which matches Daniel’s observations. The half full bottle of wine in the pantry indicates about 3 glasses have been drunk. This would allow a single glass of wine each night of her stay, Friday 20th, Saturday 21st and Sunday 22nd. This would also match the 2 empty glasses on the draining board and one with dregs on the mantlepiece. One glass per night. It doesn’t make sense, especially for a French person, to eat fruit like oranges together with wine and cheese... If she consumed one or more units of wine before bedtime and died no more than 2-3 hours afterwards alcohol should be detected in urine.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343234#Comment_119343234

For those reasons, I also tend to believe, it was a morning killing, but since there was no confirmed time of death, it's also partly a guessing game.

However, if it was a morning killing the time frame for cleaning up the murder site would have been very short. That would be the only objection I would have.

Evergreen_7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343297#Comment_119343297

Who says anything was cleaned up? The killer might have worn gloves, especially on a cold night. No dna from anyone except Sophie was found under her fingernails, which admittedly sounds crazy, but the ballistic boys from Dublin who tested it were unlikely to be involved in any sort of cover up. It seems to me the killer was extremely lucky tbh. Also, testing then for fibres, dna etc, is not what it is these days.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343325#Comment_119343325

As far as I know the scratches Sophie had, were from somebody else? It's hard to imagine that these scratches were administered by somebody wearing gloves? Maybe the scratches were from the brambles and briars only?

The posted link also mentions something interesting:

"If Sophie was running for her life it would be difficult to catch her, especially if her killer was drunken.

The blows that were made, were almost all against her head and were accurately aimed.

Finally, the killer used a concrete block from the pumphouse to deliver a final blow to the victim. It took considerable effort to obtain this block. The block could not merely been picked up from the pumphouse, it required lifting and breaking the wooden and asphalt felt "lid", moving the outside corner block and then retrieving the desired block. Moreover it required that the killer either knew or saw that the block was loose and not cemented in place. He needed enough light to accomplish all this. Doing this in the dark, even using the light of the moon would have been difficult. If there were clouds then I would argue it would have been impossible."

This would imply that Bailey would have to have chased after her, in darkness. And we know that Bailey drank quite a bit that night.

I am also guessing that if there was a chase, Sophie would have outrun Bailey. I don't know why I think that way, it's just a hunch. This would imply the killer was physically active, pointing to either a professional or semi-professional, or even a Guard.

Also regarding that pumphouse and the cavity block. If he did it in complete darkness the only way this could have worked, is that he knew that pumhouse very well and has been to the property often. Meaning the killer could find anything in the dark, so familiar was he with the surroundings.....

And if it was early morning the killer would have to have lived with the risk of beeing seen. He must have guessed that Sophie hat a reason for visiting, possibly to most likely had a schedule to keep, people doing repairs on the house, a cleaning lady was apparently expected as well...

I am also wondering why Dr. O'Conner didn't narrow down the time of death? I would have expected that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343325#Comment_119343325

Could have worn gloves and long coat and if he didn't bleed he would know any blood was not his. Maybe she scratched at his coat, the one he burned

A report from 2008 quotes Dr Harbison "I took scrapings from the fingernails of both hands and placed them in plastic bags . . . A number of hairs, almost a dozen, were adherent to and even wound around fingers of the right hand. Because of dried blood these were removed with difficulty and some of them parted. I found one long and one very short hair adherent to the back of the left hand." Bailey gave gardaí a sample of his DNA in January 1997.

Also quotes Liam Horgan, the Garda superintendent in charge of the investigation, confirmed in a telephone interview that three sets of DNA tests have been conducted "over time, as the technology improved". The tests have been inconclusive so far, but Supt Horgan said the samples, held in a secure place in Dublin, could still yield the identity of Toscan du Plantier's killer. Several years have passed since the tests were last conducted. "Some blood samples are so minuscule that they could not be analysed. As technology advances, we can go back to it," Supt Horgan said.

I don't believe the killer had to know of the pump and block. he just searched around for something to finish her with. He may have had a torch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343325#Comment_119343325

It seems to me the killer was extremely lucky tbh

A lot of truth in that

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343582#Comment_119343582

It could also have been that way.

A rage killing by somebody who's killed for the first time, - leaving lot's of traces and DNA around, but having the unexpected luck of dealing with a totally incompetent police force not gathering evidence.

It would have been a lot of coincidences in favour of the killer, but I honestly don't believe that's happened.

The killer came specifically for Sophie and he knew she was there.

TaraghGreen

Is Bailey an Irish citizen? I ask because I know many Brits that have lived here decades and aren't citizens.

flanna01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344176#Comment_119344176

What's that got to do with the price of chips?

Totally irrelevant.

Irish citizenship does or does not add weight to one being a murderer.

TaraghGreen

I thought I had responded to a post that raised the issue of Bailey being an Irish citizen and I was merely asking if that was true. In legal matters, I'd think that could be important. I do not think it has any bearing on his guilt or innocence.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344191#Comment_119344191

Legally it could only be a question about possibly getting deported back to the UK in the case of a conviction. However I am not sure about that. There is sort of free movement between the UK and Ireland, and that way before both countries have entered the EU. Brexit doesn't change that. British citizens have even voting rights in Ireland, once resident in the country, - the same goes for Irish living in the UK.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344176#Comment_119344176

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344183#Comment_119344183

Welcome to the thread @TaraghGreen

I don't know the answer to your question,

but you may get a sensible answer here from someone who knows, eventually.

TaraghGreen

Thanks. :)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344176#Comment_119344176

I don't think he is an irish citizen, I may be wrong

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344191#Comment_119344191

What do you think happened, your theory if any?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343951#Comment_119343951

There were some small spots of blood on her but too small to analysed. i also wondered since it was a very cold night was there a layer frost on the briars and did the DNA adhere to the frost. Did the frost melt in the morning and wash any DNA away

I doubt the garda forensic guys like Detective Spoon were incompetent. They had solved another murder b DNA in 1995

Also, Bailey had absolutely no motive for murdering Sophie.

No one here knows anything of Bailey's possible motives for anything. If she rejected him he may have lost his head

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345232#Comment_119345232

One can always speculate.

But I think the point is that he had no apparent/obvious motive.

And virtually all murders are motivated by something.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345232#Comment_119345232

I don't think that Bailey was interested in sleeping with Sophie. Also, remember, Bailey is a journalist, - his job is getting things out of people, getting things his way. This would mean the right time and opportunity. I doubt very much that Sophie was waiting for some sexual encounter at either 1 or 2am or some time from 6 to 8 am that night / morning. If the killer killed her at that time at night or morning, it wasn't a chance encounter and sexual rejection, it was something which happened before that night.

Also that endless "Bailey did it" attitude did not allow for a broader approach, like looking at motives. Bailey had nor real motive, Bailey barely knew Sophie, Sophie was rarely at her house in Ireland as well, - this is all regardless if Bailey seen Sophie from a distance or a little closer whilst being at Alfie's and Shirley's.

However there were a couple of people who were clearly better of, if Sophie was either dead, or would be stopped for good regarding doing something.

Her husband would clearly have been financially better of, if Sophie didn't exist anymore.

Any drug traffickers would clearly have been better of, if they knew with certainty that Sophie would never be in their way.

And if the motive was sexual / relationship oriented, it would have been something with a bit of a longer history. Ex-lovers, in France, maybe a possible casual lover living in the South West of Ireland at the time? One just doesn't kill a woman that way if one barely met her, never really talked to her longer.

Bailey simply doesn't qualify here at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345324#Comment_119345324

to say absolutely is stating it as factual

But I think the point is that he had no apparent/obvious motive.

then they should have said no obvious motive rather than absolutely no motive. Loose generalisations would not stand in a court

And i would see it as a possible motive that she rejected him so it is not true to say absolutely no motive,,.no one here knows bailey or any of his possible motivations to that extent

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345497#Comment_119345497

This is the number one difficulty I have in accepting the argument that IB is the killer. I recognise the possibility that he may have done it, but, if he did, why?

He had no obvious association or connection with Sophie. There is no evidence that the motive was sexual in nature so to propose such is purely speculative.

I've tried to remain open minded on the Bailey theory but , the more i study the case, the harder it is to accept that he was involved in the crime.

There are a number of other issues which, to me, require further explanation. In particular, why AL and SF heard nothing, why Daniel did not come to Ireland and why Marie Farrell's male companion was not identified.

TaraghGreen

I don't know what to believe at this point. My hope is there's DNA that can solve this case and bring justice to Sophie's family. It's occurred to me that nationality /citizenship could play a role in any trial since that's been an ongoing issue with the investigations.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345539#Comment_119345539

Rejection could of course be a possible motive.

The notion though of a drunk Bailey hiking an hour's walk in December weather expecting sex with a relative stranger, murdering her after being rejected, cleaning up, hiking back home and acting normal the next morning doesnt seem possible. It would also be pretty stupid of Bailey to arrive at the murder scene the next morning if he done it.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345590#Comment_119345590

Yes,

Statistically, the motive is more likely to be money, jealousy or marital issues than a reaction to a sexual rejection.

I would add that, from my perspective there were others who had a more credible motive, whose behaviour was also open to question and who would more fit the bill as suspects.

It is difficult to see how Bailey would have been in the frame at all without Marie Farrell's contention that she had seen him at the bridge.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345559#Comment_119345559

You basically summed it all up. The story would have been different, if Bailey knew Sophie, they've met personally every time she was in Ireland, etc.... And if Jules would have suspected that Bailey and Sophie were having an affair, Jules would have ended the relationship, - I don't think she would have tolerated cheating plus physical abuse together.

The one explanation I've heard is that Alfie and Shirley didn't hear anything is that they have a big conservatory in front of their house, muffling any sound. I don't know if that was ever explored, might be true or not..... It sure is odd, and something, I've also thought often.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345590#Comment_119345590

That's exactly my thought. If somebody wanted to have sex with Sophie that night one would have to expect that Sophie certainly wasn't waiting for a sexual adventure that night. Also Sophie would have outrun Bailey anytime, she wasn't drunk, but Bailey was. If there was a chase and a struggle which is suggested, the killer must have been agile and physically fit, at least similarly as Sophie. This would at least exclude Alfie from a fitness point of view and from a drunkenness point of view Bailey. Also Sophie would have been very familiar with the surroundings, possible hiding places, and that with the advantage of darkness. I doubt Bailey had that knowledge to the same extent.

This would suggest, the killer scanned the area, if he wanted to have an advantage over Sophie. He was probably checking out the area prior to Sophie's arrival.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345539#Comment_119345539

OK, perhaps "absolutely no obvious motive" would be a more accurate description.

And if sexual rejection was a "possible" motive in this case, it follows that jealousy, marital issues, neighbourly disputes, etc. etc. are also "possible" motives.........

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345590#Comment_119345590

It would also be pretty stupid of Bailey to arrive at the murder scene the next morning if he done it.

on the contrary he would be making an alibi if he got inside the cordon and went near the body. Then any DNA of his would be explained

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345660#Comment_119345660

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345660#Comment_119345660

Also Sophie would have outrun Bailey anytime, she wasn't drunk, but Bailey was. If there was a chase and a struggle which is suggested, the killer must have been agile and physically fit, at least similarly as Sophie. This would at least exclude Alfie from a fitness point of view and from a drunkenness point of view Bailey

Not necessarily because you do not know how drunk Bailey was or how it would affect his running ability. You write as if you know things you can only speculate on. He also could have driven there rather than hiking. There is no proof the killer cleaned up, perhaps they just got lucky. No one knows, not even the gardai, although i suspect they know more than they say

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119346122#Comment_119346122

Yes, I am speculating like everyone else of us here.

I don't know what the Guards know or knew back then, however I suspect that there are a good few number of people still alive today and out there who know exactly what happened that night.

If DNA evidence doesn't get the killer, then maybe a death bed confession is a possibility.