Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354525#Comment_119354525

Oh, I see. Fair enough. I got the impression there was still police tape across the entrance.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353366#Comment_119353366

The car would have to be forensically examined. I would suggest this hasn't happened, as neither Shirley nor Alfie were suspects at the time.

I would also be inclined to think that if Alfie and Shirley were in on it in whatever way, then the Guards would have been in on it as well. What I find hard to believe is they both heard absolutely nothing that night even though they lived so closely to Sophie, only giving rise to the idea that they are hiding something. I am also guessing that if Alfie and Shirley were in it, it wasn't out of their own volition, they were coerced in some way shape or form by whomever to play along, to be complicit, or even to carry out.....

jimwallace197

I dont buy the narcotics angle although it would certainly provide a motive. Even if she saw them unloading a shipment along the shore or otherwise, you still wouldn't murder someone over it or especially murder them in the manner that she was. Alot of the hits ordered in Ireland are shootings where the hitman exits the scene as quickly as possible & its a quick one or two shots preferably to the head. Its not a fight down in a ditch where you drop a block on the victims head with the neighbors just right up the road. Its in no way comparable to Veronica Guerin, she was continually reporting on drug related activities in gangland Ireland, was threatened, assaulted & warned her life was under threat on numerous occasions. And then killed in a cold quick way.

Id put Alfie Lyons as a suspect ahead of a narcotics related murder.

Despite what her friends & family said about her being fiery & confrontational sometimes, I still dont believe she would have left the house in the early hours of the morning unless it was for either someone she knew or someone in a position of authority. She was a woman on her own in a foreign country in the middle of the night or early morning. I dont know any woman that would open the door or leave the house willingly in that situation unless they were drunk and she wasn't.

Alfie lyons does tick alot of boxes but I think what saves him is that Shirley Foster provides an alibi & she was a schoolteacher in England for many years, so not exactly the type that covers up for her partner if he commits a murder. Now he may have carried it out without her knowing but like Jules Thomas, I think she would have known deep down if he had committed it. By all accounts, she seems like a decent person.

Drug related killing, its just not the way they are carried out normally & even if she saw them down by the coast unloading drugs, how would she have known from her viewpoint that that's what they were unloading or carrying. Its not as if drugs give off some sort of glow.

French hitman ordered by DTDP, I dont buy it either, the guy was divorced numerous times already & hes a film producer for gods sake. Yes, his manner after the murder was not what you'd expect of a husband but I can understand it especially from the French artist types. They're not exactly known for their ability to handle difficult situations. Claims about financial difficulties, I dont think anyone knows the extent of this. He bought that house for STPD not long before she was murdered so its not like he was close to bankruptcy but even if he was, sell it off & some of his other assets. I think this financial difficulty angle has been exaggerated. By all accounts, STDP didnt have much money when she met him & was a single mother so its not exactly like he was money motivated in marrying her. Also he remarried within 18 months of her death & they dont exactly come cheap. There was no life insurance policy on STDP as far as im aware.

So, its down to a position of authority or someone she knew that we havent heard about yet imo.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354880#Comment_119354880

After the body was discovered both Alfie and Shirley should have been treated as suspects given their proximity to the murder scene. It would appear they were not treated as suspects at all which is strange.

Also Shirley or Alfie apparently didn't know the body was Sophie. I find this incredible that they didn't have an inkling that it could be their neighbour. Finbarr Hellan had to identity the body.

The windows on their home seem to have been wooden single glazing windows. I remember these type of windows - they couldn't keep out the cold or sound so I do find it hard to believe they heard nothing.

I agree with you that Alfie and Shirley could have been covering for the/a Gardai. I believe they knew more of what actually happened.

I find their behaviour post murder most odd and definitely not how other people would react after their neighbour was murdered at the end of their lane.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355089#Comment_119355089

Good post Jim, rlyLike you, I struggle with the drugs gang theory.

I also agree that the known facts, allied to instinct, make it unlikely that she left the house in the dead of night to confront a stranger. Very few women would do that.

The French hitman also seems a long shot but I keep coming back to Daniel DP having the most to gain from Sophie's demise. There is no question that a divorce would have cost him dearly. And the discarded bottle of wine suggests a scenario where someone known to Sophie, probably French, turning up at her door with a bottle - a surprise guest type of situation. If the current cold case review reveals that the man in the beret identified by MF was in Ireland ( or even out of France) at the time of the murder, then this idea gains traction. Incidentally, I believe I read somewhere that there was a life insurance policy on Sophie and that he stood to benefit.

I'm doubtful about the Garda theory too, there's no evidence to support it. The only thing that suggests it appears to be local gossip. I do, however, believe that the man MF was with that night was a Garda. A married Garda.

Like you, I just cannot accept that Alfie and Shirley neither saw nor heard a thing. A woman is beaten to death yards from the front of their house and they remained totally oblivious.

I will say this: In the ranking of possibilities explored here, the IB sexual rejection theory is one of the least likely.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355205#Comment_119355205

I still have Alfie, with or without Shirley's collaboration, a possible suspect.

But a few points; apart from Shirley being allowed to leave the area to go to the dump, they were literally under house arrest.

The house was searched, they were questioned but they were not treated as suspects at that stage no more than anyone else.

It would have been very strange if particular attention was not paid to them early on, as person/s of interest.

About them not knowing who the victim was, they probably knew 99% who it was, but it meant someone going to the body, looking at it and saying to the Gardai 'yes that's Sophie'.

The Gardai for whatever reason chose to "make contact" with the house keeper, perhaps at Alfie's bidding or perhaps because they believed Josie Hellen knew her better, or perhaps Alfie and Shirley were in no state to return to the scene to identify the body.

Josephine Hellen was not too keen to approach the body.

Queue Finbarr Hellen, Josie's husband, who happened to be in the immediate locality about his farming business and was alerted by the Garda activity.

I don't know how well Finbarr Hellen knew Sophie to identify her, but it was accepted, this was around noon time.

Shirley did not continue her trip to the dump for another 2 1/2 hours , as she met Bailey on the road as he made his first visit to the site at 2:20.

By then it was well known around around the area and even in Cork city, if not the name, then at least that it was a French woman.

About the windows , I don't know, maybe they were double glazed, but Alfie and Shirley slept at the opposite end ,ie , the western end, and Alfie maintained conservatory at the front of their house would have blocked any sound, if there was any.

Alfie especially, and perhaps Shirley maybe knew more than they let on, but don't forget they were both " blow-ins" and found themselves in the middle of this surreal nightmare that would have been very alien to them.

I don't know how I would behave in a similar situation, but if the Gardai told me it was ok to carry on to the dump, I probably would have complied.

tinytobe

Regarding the way Sophie was dressed, I've had a few thoughts.

Would she really have opened up the door to a Guard in her night clothes? Somebody with authority or not, I'd suggest that she would at least have dressed. Authority means official, and that would suggest one wants at least to be dressed halfway properly? This would only have taken an extra 2 to 3 minutes.

I would suggest the possibility that she opened up the door to somebody she knew well, somebody she may have trusted, somebody who wasn't authority and somebody who had no interest in sex with her.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355909#Comment_119355909

Don't forget, she stuck her bare feet down into laced-up hiking boots,

and was found with just a housecoat over her nightclothes, in the middle of winter.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355909#Comment_119355909

I don't think she would have put walking boots on just to answer the door. she knew she was going outside.

dmc17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355967#Comment_119355967

To me that indicates going out voluntarily to check something early morning and not intending to stay out too long

OwlsZat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119351877#Comment_119351877

Yes, she named three people none of which were actually in the car with her. It's come up more recently that it was a local AGS member.

This matter should be investigated and the legal validity of protecting the anonymity of this person be challenged. It is known there is a 2nd sighting of the man on KB. Obviously, this person should be put made pick out the new suspect from the lineup to validate MFs most recent recollection.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119355909#Comment_119355909

Dressed as she was it was Unlikely she responded to a knock on the door.

Most likely she responded to something going on outside ( please don’t say it was to check the pump)

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356129#Comment_119356129

Is that Marie saying there was a Garda as her car-share companion that night?

If so that would be 4 different people.

Maybe she got a bit confused.

These dogging sites can be a bit crowded, even in mid-winter.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356135#Comment_119356135

I'd say if she was to meet Bailey, she would hardly been dressed like that.

What about the Richardsons? When were they at the property last? Could it have been the murder had something to do with them?

Also, dressed in night clothes, I'd suggest that she would probably only opened up the door to another woman, not a man, and certainly not Bailey. If it wasn't Shirley, her housekeeper would have been it whom she'd opened the door to dressed as she was. However I don't think these two women had any motivation of murdering Sophie.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356404#Comment_119356404

I dont think she opened the door to anyone. She was dressed ( coat over pyjamas and hiking boots slipped on) to just pop outside for a short while - maybe she needed fresh air, maybe she needed to get something from her car, maybe she went down to close the gate. She didnt leave the house in a hurry as she was able to get her coat and boots on. She left the house voluntarily.

Going back to your point though regarding her clothing - although she was in nightclothes she was fully covered. Speaking as a woman I would have no problem with someone male or female seeing me in full pyjamas. Having said that though there is no way I would open my door to anyone late at night or very early morning if I was on my own.

I have often wondered about the Richardsons. We know very little about them. Their house was supposedly empty when the murder occurred. I suppose it is possible though that someone could have been hiding out in this house. I would have thought the gardai checked this house as part of the investigation - but as we know in relation to this case alot of obvious checks were not actually done at all by the Gardai so its quite possible it wasnt investigated.

Polly701

Perhaps the unknown person who had been using Sophie's house and then couldn't because the locks were changed had been 'staying' in the Richardson's house while it was empty. Maybe they had a chance encounter that morning when she stepped out of the house for whatever reason. Maybe she accused him of previously staying in her house? Maybe he 'lost the head'?

I have no idea who committed this murder but someone did.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357852#Comment_119357852

I've had that thought as well, that Sophie might not have opened the door to anyone, might not have expected anybody, and was surprised by somebody. Why she went outside, we can also only speculate. Could have been anything from getting something out of the car, to maybe a stray dog, a stray animal on her property, anything to get her attention. The killer may even have planned this as well.

I don't know if the Guards ever searched the Richardson's house, or how quickly they were informed of the murder. I also see absolutely no motive for the Richardsons to consider murdering Sophie. However if they lived in the UK they could have travelled to their house with ease, driving taking the ferry, don't know if this would have been tracked as well? But given the remoteness of the location, a car would have been seen.

At the same time, if somebody picked Sophie's lock, one could as well have done the same with the Richardson's. Don't know if that was ever considered.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358270#Comment_119358270

Maybe we're all getting this totally wrong as well. It could also have been that Sophie wasn't murdered by one single person, or a man, it could also have been 2 or 3 people. They planned this, stuck to their story, maybe one or two were Guards, or close to the Guards, incompetence in the investigation was expected as well. Afterwards they cleaned up the murder site, methodically and quickly 2 or more could have done that, maybe she wasn't even killed where she was found, but she was placed there. We all don't know that.

Drugs and drug trafficking in the area is one thing, but the general situation is that this area of Ireland isn't really a violent place or known for violence. It's not that Leo Bolger ever attempted killing the Ungerers, and vice versa..... This would imply this wasn't in relation to the local circumstances, it was about Sophie, it was about a blow-in foreigner and getting her out of the way was necessary to somebody. Whatever the reason or motive was....?

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356404#Comment_119356404

Why would she not have answered the door wearing nightclothing covered by a robe? We don't know the precise time of her killing but she was either preparing to go to bed or had just got out of bed and came down to the kitchen so that would explain her attire, not that it's of the slightest significance. I don't attach much significance to there being no screams or noises heard either. She was probably stunned or subdued into submission before she could cry out and before the fatal blows were administered. She was wearing boots but she may have worn these around the house anyway.She may well have opened the door a fraction and whoever was outside pushed his way in. Whatever transpired inside the house, if anything did, we don't know. So, why did she end up at the gate? She had either been fleeing in terror until apprehended and killed at the spot or she had ventured out to meet or confront somebody at the gate. I know there was the mysterious bloodstain found on the front door but that could have come from the (bloodied) killer entering or re-entering the house with the intention of stealing something. Cash, jewellery or, perhaps, a bottle or two of expensive French wine.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360210#Comment_119360210

Since you ask why? It's just a speculation, same as yours. This case has many loose ends, leaving a lot of room for speculating or a good and long conversation in a pub......

Since you mention the inside of the house, I've always had the feeling that the scene was staged, cleaned up, something like that. Of course that could have been anything, a woman leaving the house longer, trying to leave everything in order, but also, she had a cleaning lady. It might not mean anything, but again, it could.

If she ran, or fled the terror, I am surprised that no decent footprints of her boots were ever found. Possibly not on the road, where Shirley was driving, but immediately near her house. Also, there is the question on whether she ran straight through the field to the gates.

chooseusername

Of course her attire was significant.

If she was dressed in the outdoor clothes she was seen in on Sunday or in different outdoor gear would that be significant?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360210#Comment_119360210

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360333#Comment_119360333

The only thing we can say with an element of certainty is that the encounter was unexpected for Sophie and she expected only to be outside for a short period of time, otherwise she would have dressed differently.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356309#Comment_119356309

Maybe she wasn`t out at all that night.

OwlsZat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358270#Comment_119358270

Wasn't Alfie accused of using her bath and all? Perhaps she had enough and went home before Christmas to threaten Alfie that he was not to be using her house across Christmas when it was due to be empty for a long stretch.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360762#Comment_119360762

That was about 3 years previous and they were supposed to getting on ok at the time of the murder, according to Alfie anyway.

It’s doubtful it was Alfie using the bath anyway.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360719#Comment_119360719

You’d wonder why she said she was though. Maybe it was Hubby and they worried in case van was seen around the roads.

oceanman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360210#Comment_119360210

but as far as we know noting was stolen from the house...open to correction on that though.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361222#Comment_119361222

There was discussion of a fire iron missing same as a diary. Not certain about that one as well....

Polly701

She had changed the locks earlier in 1996 iirc.

Polly701

And there was speculation that Alfie had been the one using her house but that was never confirmed I believe.

Surely it is significant that a woman who was murdered by her home had changed her locks earlier that year? The person who had been entering the house never came forward to rule themselves out.

saabsaab

Possible missing items scene..

Axe/poker

Diary

Wine bottle?

Watc