Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412146#Comment_119412146

That suggests to me the gate was fully open throughout. I imagine it was usually left fully open anyway. Is there any evidence that Sophie was insistent on it being closed when she was at home? She would hardly be entitled to do so seeing as the driveway was shared with two other properties. How the bloodstains happened is a matter of complete conjecture.

flanna01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412369#Comment_119412369

I agree the blood stains are complete conjecture..

But it clearly proves that Sophie was in contact with the gate in an injured capacity..

Her body was back a good bit from the gate, so either she was involved in a struggle at the gate, or she was trying to exit the gate way?

If she was involved in a struggle by the gate, why did she head back in towards the passageway before meeting her demise?

If the gate was already open, maybe propped open with a rock (which is traditional anyway), that would suggest the attack was carried out whilst she was in motion, probably running (stumbling) back up the passageway, maybe heading for the cottage... That puts the murderer at the gateway to the property, or just outside it??

There was no blood drips found anywhere from the cottage down to the gate....?? Only the blood stain beneath the door handle.

This suggests, the attack occurred between the gate and a few meters inside the passageway.

Logic would suggest the bloodstain on the door was caused by a bloodied sleeve pulling the door to? By the murderer??

So, the altercation happened in that one area, the murderer then was driven to either close the door to avert suspicion by somebody passing by (the neighbours), or went to the cottage to remove something - which is unlikely as there was no blood drops found within the property.

It's hard to believe this is a random attack - The returning to the door is not making any sense to me?

Why worry about an open door with a bloodied body led out in the passageway?

Duke of Schomberg

I've been following these threads about this murder for some time. Now, I'm just a Special Constable, but I've chatted to DCs when on shift, and the bottom line about this case is . . . why not run to your neighbour's house? Well. if its the neighbour that's killing you. Gate closed by Sophie at night, Sophie sees neighbour wedging open gate (using breeze block) in morning, rushes down to confront, argument spirals out of control (long term cannabis use does invoke paranoia) . . .

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412483#Comment_119412483

I've never believed the killing was random. I believe that the killing was planned, it's not only a hunch, it's just that there is a lot pointing into that direction. Most importantly, the killer knew Sophie was in Ireland, and staying at her house, a house which is mostly sitting empty for the majority of the year. He may even have known that it was Sophie's last day in Ireland, - she would hardly spend Christmas alone, regardless of her husband and the state of her marriage, there was still her son in France, and other family members... etc.... So from that aspect the killer must have had some knowledge and room and time for planning, albeit maybe very short.

However the big question is, where did the killing really take place? Was she really killed near or at the gate, or at the entrance of her house? How was the stain at the door to her house caused? During the killing? Or by the killer, returning to the house afterwards to steal something possibly incriminating, like the diary?

I think there is a bit more pointing towards the killing having taken place near the gate and there was some kind of struggle near or at the gate, Sophie possibly trying to get over the gate?

If the killer went back to the house where he left the stain at the door, why wasn't he afraid of being seen by Alfie or Shirley? How come he left no DNA, or other prints at the scene of the murder, but didn't bother much about causing the stain at the door? If he was really that careful, he'd have noticed that stain himself?

flanna01

I doubt it was a planned killing. Several factors point me away from this theory:

1) The sheer brutality of the killing.. This was a bloody mess, with the killer being covered in blood. Strangulation would have been so much easier and quieter. It's apparent the killer used what was available to him at the time, in this case, a concrete block.

2) I reject the theory of this murder being a warning from a drugs cartel - This murder only put everything & everyone under the spotlight.. Not ideal for the nocturnal transportation of high value narcotics. it would have been easier to bundle her into a van and throw her off the cliffs into the sea. There was nothing to be gained by bringing the worlds media and the Capitals detectives to this remote drug smuggling town.

3) The murder was savage beyond belief... It has the hallmarks of a man driven by a blind rage.. The prolonged assault was fueled by a hatred that kept the murderer raining up to fifty blows, one after the other, down onto a fatally injured woman - This wasn't a find her, kill her, move on job.

4)The time window of the murder, and the locality of the incident, point towards somebody near by.

5) The fact that the murder occurred by the gate may, or may not be relevant? Just seems odd that that gate was a cause of dispute previously?

6) Alfie's bandaged hand on the morning of the murder? What are the odds like?

7) I read a report, it stated that in 2014, an investigative team travelled to England to get a statement from an un-named witness? When they arrived there, the witness refused to cooporate and refused to provide a statement...? Why would anyone not want to help in the case of a brutally murdered young Mother?? What reason could there possibly be??

** Was that person Shirley Foster?? **

lintdrummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119413561#Comment_119413561

I don't think there's any evidence to suggest she was killed anywhere other than where she was found. Logically, it makes no sense to have moved her to a wide open location if she had been killed at the house. But there's no trail of blood or other evidence to suggest she was moved. The stain on the door is puzzling. Many believe it was the killer who left that stain. Here's another speculation: There was a minor altercation outside with the murderer that ended with Sophie getting a minor injury. She went back to the house and grabbed the poker/axe, leaving a stain on the door. She then went chasing after the murderer and was killed at the gate. Pure speculation, and that's all we'll ever have without a confession from the killer.

As for her trying to get over the gate, that isn't at all likely either. The blood stains were predominantly on the side of the gate that would face away from the house if it was closed. So it appears she came into contact with the gate in it's open position, probably stumbled into it or was pushed against it is my guess. Climbing over it wouldn't have made any sense in it's open position, it would have been up against the hedge.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412605#Comment_119412605

So, how about:

Sophie has an ongoing beef with Alfie and Shirley about the gate. She wants it kept closed for whatever reasons, keeping animals out or security or something like that. For Alfie and Shirley, this in an unnecessary inconvenience, having to open and close the gate every time they leave and return. Maybe Sophie makes a point of closing the gate every time one of them leaves it open. It becomes one of those minor irritants that festers and becomes a contentious issue.

Sophie gets up on the morning of the crime and makes a light breakfast. As she is finishing Alfie drives past and stops at the gate , which she has made a point of closing the night before. She watches him prop the gate open with a concrete block. Angered by this, she quickly puts her boots on and marches down to the gate to remonstrate with Alfie. An argument ensues, harsh words are exchanged and Alfie loses his temper, picks up the block and bashes her over the head with it, she screams and he realises that he has inflicted a serious injury and proceeds to finish her off.

Panicking, drags her body to one side, off the track and drives back up to his house, noticing as he passes, that Sophie, in her haste to confront him, has left the door open, he stops to pull it closed, dragging his bloodstained sleeve across the door as he does so................??

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119413815#Comment_119413815

2021-04-25_cri_70004548_I1.png

I am not certain that it would be possible to see the gate from the vantage point of the kitchen table.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119413719#Comment_119413719

Interesting points. If the killing was a rage killing and an unplanned killing, I'd say it must have been somebody very local, somebody who knew without doubt or asking anybody else that Sophie would be staying at her house and the Richardsons were absent as well. This would undoubtedly point towards Alfie Lyons and Shirley Foster. This would explain a lof things with ease, like the opportunity to commit the murder, the time to clean up the crime scene, and stating they didn't hear anything as well as being completely alone with Sophie.

The only question in the "Alfie and Shirley" theory would be the motive. I also doubt very much that if Alfie did the killing he could have hidden that from Shirley, so she must have been in on it as well. But the big question remains, why would they kill Sophie in such a rage? ( And I doubt that a simple neighbour dispute over a shed or an opened or closed gate would have been it )

Could it have been as simple as Alfie being high on drugs himself and killing Sophie in rage over some minor issue? I mean this kind of killing these number of blows to Sophie this kind of hatred doesn't happen from one minute to the next. There must have been more to it. One also must not forget that Sophie was only at her house for a relatively short amount of time in any given year, meaning that any argument between neighbours could have been settled, with the fact that she isn't here anyway for the majority of the year...... And then there was quite an age difference between Alfie, Shirley and Sophie. I'd say, in the worst case, Sophie could have outrun them both.

Also, whom did they interview in 2014? Shirley wasn't living in the UK at the time? I think she only left Ireland recently and sold the house, - after Alfie's death?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119413729#Comment_119413729

I've often wondered about the place she was found and whether that's also the place where she was really killed. The stone and the cavity block would certainly point to that she was killed by the gates, but still, how did the stain get to the door? And the stain was clearly Sophie's blood, for all we know. Whoever made the "trip" to or back from the gates to the house had blood on him or herself, if it was Sophie or the killer, no idea? - and lost no blood on the whole way? Also a bit strange to me? Wasn't there a stain on the grass in front of the house? So this "trip" was more likely to completed by whomever over the field in front of the house rather than on that road?

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119413845#Comment_119413845

OK, but she would have heard his car passing.....

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412057#Comment_119412057

Does anybody remember the photo's of the bloodied gate?

This one?

gate.jpg

My theory is; the gate was closed Sun evening probably by Sophie returning from Sullivan's at about 5:00 pm.

Her assailant opened the gate probably early next morning and drove their car through into the lane (skid-marks when it drove off after the murder);

skidmarks.jpg

They may have had a legitimate reason to be there, a local farmer or workman, but had an ulterior motive that morning.

Meanwhile, Sophie had risen an had her breakfast, and washed up her breakfast things, gone upstairs to get dressed, (or to investigate who had come in her gate.)

Maybe her visitor was paying too much attention to her windows, she did not have curtains or blinds and her bedroom light would have been on.

It may not be the first time she noticed someone hanging around, and she went down to confront them.

On the other hand their business there may have been innocent enough in their eyes, but not so in Sophie's opinion.

They may have been accessing her property through the other gate by the pumphouse, into the bottom of her lawn.

A still from a video much later shows the gate and silage stored on the lawn.

pumphousegate2012.jpg

At this stage it would have belonged to her son Phillipe, and I can't imagine him making silage.

thecretinhop

It is interesting that Shirley was well shook by finding the body and was never right after it.... perhaps guilt was the factor. It seems totally umlike they would have done it but I can't shake the feeli g they were involved somehow

Also going to the dump a few hours after I pray the guards checked the car...

Nothing adds up a few years ago dad got hit by a shelve that fell on him knocked him out I came home to this blood everywhere. He was fine needed a few stitches. I was literally wrecked I could barely stand up a few hours after. Going to the rubbish dump after seeing some far far worse which has affected her to this day yet driving was fine like I mean wtf?

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414443#Comment_119414443

This is exactly what I don't get. How did Shirley continue with her planned day after finding her neighbour violently murdered. Alfie and Shirleys behaviour definitely wasn't a normal reaction to such a tragic event.

Xander10

I remember seeing Alfie in one or both of the recent TV shows. Did Shirley feature in either of them?

odyssey06

To square the planned attack / rage murder... could someone have gone there planning to threaten violence / frighten Sophie (but not murder) and she fought back... person lost the head... and then ended in rage murder.

Juat a theory.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414443#Comment_119414443

If Alfie and Shirley actually did it, they had time, they could easily have dumped, whatever they had to get rid of, way sooner, and under cover of darkness. Nobody would have noticed or seen anything. The knew the Richardsons were not here.

The thing is it would have been down to Alfie and Shirley to report the crime. If the trip to the rubbish dump / landfill would have meant to dump evidence, bloody clothes, etc... they could both have driven earlier, then driven back, and then reported the murder.

I am also surprised that the murder was actually reported by Alfie and Shirley, not by the caretaker who was due to visit Sophie in the morning as well.

When was the caretaker due at Sophie's that morning?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414822#Comment_119414822

I am not saying that they did it, but there are a couple of thoughts pointing into that direction. They were the only ones completely alone with Sophie, they claim they didn't hear anything, and they reported the murder to the police.

In light of these known facts, how come the police focused so much on pinning the crime on Bailey, but never on Alfie and Shirley?

Also, why did it take so long and apparently a long wait until Alfie passed away that Shirley decided to sell the property? If they had any guilty feelings about the murder, I suppose they could both have sold earlier, moved away, with the same explanation that Shirley gave, curious people coming to the house, etc... using the place for tourism, etc....

The Richardsons still seem to own their house and haven't sold? - as far as I know.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414926#Comment_119414926

It's a possibility. The question would only be, what was the reason to threaten Sophie? After all, she was only a short period of time during the year at her cottage? Somebody had a reason to go to Sophie's that night either to confront her to maybe demand sex, to threaten, to frighten or to kill.

I've often thought that it could also have been the care taker, if it was a rage killing. Also the caretaker would have been familiar to Sophie, would have been expected to visit, would have known that the Richardsons were not there, and the murder site wasn't visible to Alfie and Shirley, somebody with lot's of local knowledge. Sophie was picky, they didn't agree on something regarding the house, the upkeep, maybe a financial disagreement over repairs?, things turned into a rage, the care taker naturally inexperienced with killing, but in the end, hitting her too hard.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415085#Comment_119415085

The trip to the dump may not have been sinister. What is strange though is that they appear to have shown no shock or emotion at their neighbour being murdered on that day. Most people in that situation would be very shocked and traumatized - Alfie and Shirley continued as normal. This is not normal behaviour at all - like they were not shocked at all. Maybe even rehearsed in what they needed to do.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415176#Comment_119415176

Yes, I know what you're saying. But could it only have been our impression? As far as I know, the only emotion we know of Alfie and Shirley, we've seen on the SKY or Netflix documentary. Also people react totally differently, - don't know how Alfie was doing, when was the last time he used Cannabis? Could have had an influence on his behaviour? I am no expert on this, but I'd suggest it could have been.....

Also, just for the exercise, let's say Alfie and Shirley killed Sophie, what was the real motive? Why? ( I simply don't accept a neighbour dispute about the shed, or who owns what, as it's all in the land registry anyway ) Was it planned or in rage? If it was rage, what could Alfie and Shirley or either of them upset them so much that they felt to kill Sophie? or frighten her, or threaten her? And if they planned to kill her, even more, what would a motive for a long term plan be? In the latter case I would suspect that Alfie and Shirley may have been coerced to do so? But by whom and why? Was such a coercion really drug related?

All theories, as always.....

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415176#Comment_119415176

It's strange that they were allowed out at all that day, driving a car and trailer out and back across a crime scene. I have not seen or heard of anything similar, ever. The Gardai on duty failed completely to implement correct procedure. You could, being generous, attribute that to collective inexperience of dealing with the aftermath of such a crime or else a complete lack of instruction and direction from their superiors at a critical stage of the investigation.

thecretinhop

I had a friend who used do lots of weed mostly fine but he used get very paranoid especially with drink had to hold him back more than once trying to get into a fight where something very innocent was said and he got wrong end of stick..

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415176#Comment_119415176

According to a poster on an earlier since closed thread, Shirley was a broken woman afterwards.

About continuing on the the dump, that was on the advice of the Gardai, and I think I read somewhere that a Garda accompanied her.

To say they continued as normal is an unfair assumption.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416010#Comment_119416010

Apart from continuing to the tip they were not allowed out for several days .

There was no trailer, just rubbish in the boot of Shirley's car.

They were not allowed out and back through the scene, Shirley had already passed out through the scene and beyond the gate before stopping.

Shirleycarout.jpg

On returning Shirley's car was not allowed back through the scene until forensics were finished.

shirleycarback.jpg

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416433#Comment_119416433

I can't find any reference at all for this idea that a Garda accompanied her to the dump, or that it was on their advice... or do you mean it was posted earlier on the thread?

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416463#Comment_119416463

I can't recall where I read about a Garda accompanying Shirley I'll see if I can find it.

As for the Gardai 'advising' her to continue, maybe 'allowing' or 'suggesting' would be a better word.

Edit;

As regards a Garda accompanying Shirley to the dump is probably incorrect, as, if it were the case it would have been mentioned in the reports where Shirley met Bailey on the lane and their versions of that meeting contradicted each other.

Apologies.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416433#Comment_119416433

Im sorry but continuing on with what she had planned for the day is in no way normal behaviour.. She may have been a broken women years after but she certainly wasnt a broken women that morning. I would call it very cold and unemotional to continue with your trivial jobs after discovering your neighbours battered body. I havent seen it anywhere that a guard accompanied her. Also both her and Alfie didnt appear to even think it could be their neighbour - Who the hell else did they think it could be? It appeared they couldnt identify the body ( Finbar Hellen had to do that) but could go to the dump, the town and phone all and sundry to tell what had happened - bizarre behaviour!

How did Shirley get back to her house if she wasnt allowed through the scene? ( she shouldnt even have been allowed walk anywhere around the scene). As far as I'm aware Alfie and Shirley didnt have to move out of their house for a few days while the forensics done their job? Do you think forensics was complete in a few hours!

Also if it deeply affected Shirley as much as was reported why didnt they sell the property years ago?

They certainly didnt shed any tears for Sophie.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416700#Comment_119416700

Who knows what “normal behaviour” would be in those circumstances?

When Shirley alerted Alfie, he went down to the scene, on his way back up to call the Gardai he knocked on Sophie’s back door and window and obviously got no answer. It would have been fairly obvious to them whose body it was. The Gardai realised they were in no fit state to go back down to the scene to identify the body for them and contacted Josie Hellen. Finbarr Hellen happened to be nearby and identified the body.

Shirley’s car would have to be moved from it’s position blocking the gate and the Gardai decided to allow Shirley to complete her trip and on returning left her car outside the cordon. I’d imagine she was escorted back to her house, where else would you suggest she went?

Alfie and Shirley were literally under house arrest in their own home until Gardai and forensics completed their job which I imagine took several days. I believe Ian Bailey was their first non Garda visitor on the 26th.

I read a report about a Garda accompanying Shirley to the dump which was probably incorrect.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417152#Comment_119417152

Evidence of tracks/footprints would have been destroyed by the car passing up the lane. Also walking to the door would also obscure/damage evidence. Not a good start.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417152#Comment_119417152

So your saying that Shirley ( or Alfie) wasn't in a fit state to ID the body but she was in a fit state to drive her car to town and go about her non essential business as normal. Just a typical normal day in West cork - only it wasn't a typical day at all.

If you are driving out your drive tomorrow morning and find your neighbour battered to death you think you would be in a fit state to continue to work, or shopping or whatever. I would imagine most people wouldn't be in a fit state to do anything in those circumstances.

We know Shirley and Alfie wasn't under house arrest because Shirley was on her way to the town at lunchtime driving the very car that drove through the crime scene - how the hell was this allowed.. We know Alfie was wondering around the outside of Sophie's house and knocking on her door looking for Sophie with no thoughts it would appear that the body could be Sophie - that seems farcical to me in an area with so few people - who else could they think the body could be. We know Shirley and Alfie were back at their house that evening - they would have had to walk through the crime scene yet AGAIN to get home. So it would appear that Alfie and Shirley were allowed to trample all over the crime scene.

leath_dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417152#Comment_119417152

"When Shirley alerted Alfie, he went down to the scene, on his way back up to call the Gardai he knocked on Sophie’s back door and window and obviously got no answer."

Could that be how the blood got on the door?

flanna01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418685#Comment_119418685

If he didn't kill her, he would have no blood on his clothing to transfer to the door...

If he had killed her, why would he be knocking on her door....?

Sophie wasn't exactly Alfie and Shirley's neighbour in the true sense of the word. In the years they lived there Sophie would have only been there a handful of times and it seems most of their interactions involved her complaining about things. So besides the shock of seeing a battered body they would have no cause to be in any state of grief. Also, it seems they did not look too closely at the body, which is the correct thing to do, hence why they didn't know who it was.

Regarding the rubbish in the car, there would be no bin collection out there so it was likely foul smelling and putrid. Not something you want to leave in your car for a long period.