Sophie: A Murder in West Cork - Netflix.

leath_dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418724#Comment_119418724

As a possible alibi. "If I killed her why would I have knocked on her door, which I told you I did?"

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418859#Comment_119418859

Its quite possible that Shirley driving and plundering through the crime scene (and then being allowed drive her car to town later that day) destroyed forensic evidence. Alfie putting his prints on Sophies door and footprints all over her property could very well have been done on purpose.

I wonder why Alfie wasnt a gent and go to the dump instead of Shirley. He could have at least travelled with her! In most houses and still now this would have been a mans job.

Anyway its the last time I will comment on Alfie and Shirley. There is no proof they were involved in any way but I still think their behaviour was very very odd beyond belief on that day. I definitely think they should have been investigated as much as Bailey was.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418926#Comment_119418926

Their conduct here is multiple times more suspicious than say Bailey burning rubbish or buying bleach! All of which AGS made great play of...

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419276#Comment_119419276

Bailey burned clothes and footwear.

People are making some strange assumptions. Firstly Josephine Hellen made a statement saying Alfie and Shirley and Sofie were friends. Are people sure that Alfie was aware that Sofie was in Ireland alone? Because if he wasn`t, then he would certainly have gone knocking on her door and even if he knew she was alone he still couldn`t have been sure that the body was Sophie`s. I think it was a perfectly normal response to events.

Some of the theorizing about the dump is ridiculous. Lets say Alfie and Shirley were in cahoots and attempting to cover up a murder by disposing of bloody clothes. Where would be a good place to hide these clothes? In the car that Shirley abandoned yards from the body before they called the Gardaí? Really?

For those who haven`t read about it earlier in the thread. The doctor examined Alfie`s hand and determined it was not a recent injury.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419467#Comment_119419467

Well we don't know what they went to the dump with do we?

The rubbish should have been handed over to the Guards and the car checked. Nothing should have left the scene until forensics were done.

Were they friends or weren't they? If they were friends, and lived adjacent, but didn't know if she was there alone or not? You are contradicting yourself.

Given how poor the search function is, perhaps you can re-add the original source for the doctor's examination.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419533#Comment_119419533

Could be 1/2 doz. wine bottles in a carrier bag?

Unlikely to be a major spring clean, nothing visible in the car in the photo above in post 1792 (Shirleycarout)

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419880#Comment_119419880

Wait... a wine ... bottle?

*dum dum dum*

:)

Thanks, I can't make out what's in the car, but if that was all it was, hardly seems like something that needed to be brought to the dump that day or else it'd stink the place up.

jimwallace197

I dont think Alfie actually did it but I fully agree with other peoples sentiments that their behavior is unusual in that after a murder of their neighbor like that, Shirley was looking to dump rubbish. Like, wtf, just leave it outside if its smells that bad. Its very strange & I always believed them not hearing anything & Sophie not running towards their house was highly unusual as well. What saves them imo is that Shirley was a teacher in England for many years & I dont believe she would have helped Alfie cover up a murder like this irrespective of her feelings toward him & her possible dislike of Sophie.

People react differently to traumatic events, yes, but I still think the last thing you'd be thinking about is the rubbish when your neighbor has been murdered in a manner such as that.

Another aspect of the case I found interesting was that STDP had a serious issue/falling out with a former colleague where she subsequently left the job in France, it was quite nasty if I remember correctly. Now he was subsequently ruled out & we all know she wasnt a shrinking violet so maybe she rebuffed a local's advances in town previously & this was his way of getting revenge. She heard/saw him coming in the gate or down at the gate, ran down there to tell him to f**k off and then he over reacted because he was well on it or high.

Now, whether that local was a gard, a local scummer or Bailey is up for debate. But I think for her to leave the house in the middle of the night like even though she was fiery would suggest to me, she was at least familiar with this person before or again he was in a position of authority.

• I dont believe DTPD ordered the hit, just completely out of character for a man in his position/nature & the manner of the killing would suggest anything but a professional killing
• I dont buy the drugs angle killing as again, how would she have known they were importing drugs in the local area & even if she did, theres no evidence of her reporting the crime to the gards
• I dont buy the Bailey angle because if he was an alcoholic and as nutty as they tried to portray him (the gards) then surely he would have left behind DNA evidence of some sort & certainly wouldnt have reported on the crime in the morning unless he has huge balls which I dont think he has.
• I dont think Alfie or Shirley did it but they have known who actually did and stayed out of it. Ireland was a very different country back then & minding your own business was much more commonplace especially in relation to someone you didnt particularly like.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419533#Comment_119419533

Just because you don`t know what they went to the dump with doesn`t mean that the Gardaí didn`t know or do a thorough examination of the contents of the car.

You just keep making assumptions and I didn`t contradict myself. Just because they were friendly with each other wouldn`t necessarily mean that they lived in each others ears.

I don`t know who the original source for the doctor examination was. It wasn`t me.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420320#Comment_119420320

Nor does it mean they did. That seems to be an assumption you have made. Just as you have made an assumption that this source is reliable.

I've known my neighbour for over 20 years, we say hello, smile and comment on the weather maybe once a week or so. If I found him dead at the bottom of the drive tomorrow morning I'd be quite shocked and very sad but I wouldn't curl up into a ball and withdraw from the world. I'd do whatever needed to be done with the Gaurds and whatever else and then I'd carry on about my day. And I'm fairly certain most people would do the same.

This idea that Shirley should have been more upset about the death of a woman who was practically a stranger to her is just Miss Marple level delusion.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420836#Comment_119420836

She didn't find an elderly neighbour dead of obvious natural causes...

A couple of posts back they were described as friends. Now they were practically strangers! But regardless...

It was an isolated spot. It's not so much about being upset about the personal connection to the victim as in would you not be a bit freaked out if someone was killed in the place where yours is one of the only houses? Would the thought that it could have been you not start to occur to you...

Gussie Scrotch

I don't think that Alfie or Shirley were involved in the crime.

But I do think that the circumstantial evidence suggesting possible involvement far outweighs that which points towards IB.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420910#Comment_119420910

I believe she had lived all her life in a fairly rough part of London so had probably already seen or come across her fair share of violence. No one says she wasn't shocked or that she didn't worry about it being her next, in fact it was stated that she was never right again afterwards. But the idea she should have had some immediate emotional collapse is either naive or misogynistic.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420974#Comment_119420974

Who is talking about an immediate emotional collapse?

Just why the need after such a shocking discovery, which may have implications for her future there, to go out driving on not especially urgent business.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420974#Comment_119420974

Im speaking as a woman. Shirley must be as hard as nails to be able to drive alone as she did after discovering the body, she must have had to walk past the body a few times that day - no shock, no emotion, no fear of a murderer on the loose, no compassion for her female neighbour. I can tell you most women wouldnt be able to continue like that. She then lived in her home for a further 25 years after the murder took place with no fear it seams that the murderer could return. Most people would have had a 'for sale' sign up on that place within a few months after the murder. For most people their idyllic peaceful home would have been ruined - not so for Alfie and Shirley it seems. I know I would not have returned to the house Alfie and Shirley lived in even if I was paid to do so.

Im convinced Shirley knows more about who committed this crime.

saabsaab

Interesting comments from the review.

'There were no obvious fingerprints at the scene. Many of the “many fingerprints” in the house were identified as belonging to the housekeeper and members of her family, a garda statement of 1997 said, but “a few” fingerprints remained unidentified. It is not clear whether they have ever been identified.

“Forensics are vital to a cold case investigation,” Alan Bailey said. Extracting DNA from samples that were deemed too minuscule to test has solved many famous crimes, he said. In 2009, DNA extracted from an inside seam of a velvet jacket worn by serial killer Mark Nash linked him to two women he was later convicted of murdering.'

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420225#Comment_119420225

Just out of curiosity, do you have an idea or a theory on who did it and why you think he did it?

I am only asking because, I don't. I just have a number of possibilities.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421200#Comment_119421200

I'd say, that's another tough nut to crack. A velvet jacket worn exclusively by somebody is one thing. But in this case, anybody's DNA or fingerprints could be there at Sophie's house outside or inside, even the estate agent selling the place to Sophie? And anybody's DNA or fingerprints found in the house, can calmly admit to having been to the house, but not have committed the murder.

Forensics is certainly vital, however it'll surprise me very much if they could make a match beyond reasonable doubt. Also, anybody could have touched the cavity block or the stone, they were all in the driveway up to the house. If suppose Bailey visited Alfie and Sophie and used the stone to keep the gate open while visiting, then his fingerprints could easily be on the stone.

MonkieSocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421918#Comment_119421918

Forensics is certainly vital, however it'll surprise me very much if they could make a match beyond reasonable doubt. Also, anybody could have touched the cavity block or the stone

If somebody's DNA was found on the cavity block on top of the blood stains on the cavity block.

That would be indicative of a murders DNA

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422110#Comment_119422110

If the tests are that exact, then it'll be very hard for the accused to explain this otherwise.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421200#Comment_119421200

"Many of the “many fingerprints” in the house were identified as belonging to the housekeeper and members of her family,"

I asked this question before on this thread;

Does anyone think that throwaway remark " many fingerprints belonging to family members (of the housekeeper) in the house" just a little sinister? What business did 'family members' other than Josie have in that house?

Perhaps having a bath? poking around in her drawers?

Had the relationship between Sophie and the Hellens soured?

I know Alfie had a boundary dispute with Finbarr Hellen.

A couple of horses on Alfie's land in this photo;

horses.jpg

I don't recall seeing Alfie as having horses anywhere.

Sophie shared several boundaries with Hellen.( besides the area around her house she had another 8 parcels of land dotted around Dunmanus about 16 acres in total)

Some of the boundaries have blurred shall we say, others have disappeared altogether on Google maps.

Sophie and Finbarr Hellen also shared some commonage just down the lane past the gate.

Josie is supposed to have said that Sophie allowed the Hellens to have their horses on her land, but we only have one side of that story.

I believe the 'secondary gate' as Sheridan called it may have been the cause for dispute rather than the gate in the lane.

It appears to be a newish hung gate, closing onto the pumphouse.

secondary gate.jpg

Both gates are shown as wide open in the crime scene photos, so it's reasonable to assume they were found in that position when the body was discovered.

The gate in the lane open is one thing, but finding her gate into her lawn open is different matter.

The same gate about 15 years later with silage bales stored on Sophie's/ Phillipe's lawn;

secondary gate2.jpg

I wonder, was Sophie trying to define/formalise her property boundaries?

tinytobe

It's possible that Alfie and Shirley rented out the land, for the horses to graze there.

To the rest of your questions, I don't have the answers to.

I also don't think Sophie kept anything important in the drawers as she was absent for most of the year. Anybody poking around wouldn't find anything exciting.

What I've noticed in the first picture, is that there were two cars parked at Alfie and Shirley's. A visitor? Or did they actually have two cars?

How much land did Sophie really own there? Was her property all the way down to the secondary gate?

flanna01

The boys in France are taking their time reporting back...

After the amount of time passing since they left these shores, I would assume they hit a brick wall with their DNA sample?

Realistically, that was probably the last roll of the dice in helping to solve this case.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422577#Comment_119422577

I was wondering about that myself and I don't think they were having a vacation in France.

It's possible that they've got nothing at all, otherwise we've heard about it by now.

As far as I know they are questioning one man. And to identify and match a DNA sample would also not take several weeks or months.

So I am guessing this is also another dead end. The man in question will probably admit to an affair with Sophie but not murder unless they are able to really pin it on him without reasonable doubt.

The very last "roll of dice" I would suggest may be a death bed confession by somebody who either did it, or knows a lot more.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422455#Comment_119422455

How much land did Sophie really own there? Was her property all the way down to the secondary gate?

The bit around the house went down to that gate;

house.jpg

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420225#Comment_119420225

Her reputed physical bravery would count for little against a larger, stronger assailant. She was 5ft nothing and of a petite build. No chance.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119431126#Comment_119431126

Light build and very small. Almost everyone would be able to get the better of her unless she was armed.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119432724#Comment_119432724

It's hard to say. I would speculate: She's young and agile and it's dark and she knows the area well. That could also have been an advantage, unless the murderer was very athletic? Maybe this would speak for the theory it was a Guard?

jimwallace197

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119431126#Comment_119431126

Not necessarily, with enough will or anger & a weapon of sorts from the house it would make anyone a threat.

saabsaab

Yhe evidence of a struggle would show she tried to escape. She may have had some weapon (poker/axe or wine bottle even) but her small size and light frame would mean she hard little chance once she got to grips with the attacker(s), even an average man or woman.