Margins from suckler beef

Dickie10

squinn2912 wrote: »

Interested to know have many gone from sucklers to weanling - beef. Does it leave any more for you? You don’t have the calving, horninb, tagging or weaning

id never calve another cow, some hardship if your counting your time, probably more profit when you take in less feeding, less vet bills, less straw, work tagging, dehorning , weaninig the calf, less dosing as young claves, dead calves , sections, empty cows etc, horrible work, you have 150 ewes lambed in a month.

minerleague

Easten wrote: »

Hard to know what to do, I've tried bits of them other systems like bucket calf rearing but that was a waste of effort for me. Its fair bad to be in the seller box of the mart with 20 hereford which are really no more than whitehead jersey.
I done double sucking the Cows for a few years when the calf price was reasonable and you could get a good quality calf, I think that left me the most profit but that was an awful lot of hardship with Cows refusing the calves to them going full mental and even refusing there own calves! but at least I wasn't down at the local shop wondering should I put in a fiver less petrol into the Car this week.
I've done the Teagasc and had some young fella with his calculator telling me about reseeding, AI, new sheds and expansion. I told him I've been there done that, spent that 20 years tending plasterers on the building to pay for the land and sheds. Work of an Ape.
A few years back you could justify working and Sucklers but not now.
It still boils down to the margins and with my current Suckler system I'd need 3 times the amount to make anything near what an ordinary job would pay.
The SFP has only gone on the opposite direction, I'm getting less now with the cuts to my unit values.
As you can tell by now I'm fairly deluded by the system, but disappointed that so many seem to be in the same boat and theirs no real alternatives.

About 12 -14 years ago I had a bord bia inspection, the inspector ( young progressive type farmer ) was pointing out all I was doing wrong ( not stocked heavy enough, fields not sprayed or reseeded, more fertilizer and sheds needed etc) Now in fairness he was doing all these things himself , AI BB bulls for export market and all the rest. Found out after he leased out the farm and went working 9-5 3 years afterwards ( vet bills , bad weather, sick calves etc)

Albert Johnson

blue5000 wrote: »

+1
We managed to coax our lot into the yard a month ago and load 5 for the mart. Lad who took them in for me said one of them cleared a pen in the mart. They looked quiet on martbid, got a few bids so I didn't have to bring them home again. Haven't heard anything since so I'm guessing they haven't broke across the Shannon yet as the mart was on the far side.

Every generation is getting madder, they're fine with just me, but trying to do anything needs to be well thought out beforehand. Moved a bunch yesterday and a day old calf took off at a tangent under electric fences.......I'll keep ye posted;).

I think part of the problem with wild cattle is they're just not used to humans.

I'd agree that suckler stock seem to be getting wilder each year, whether it's down to (lack of) handling, genetics or other I don't know. I encounter a lot of stock weekly and even the "wild" cattle seem to be getting worse and worse annually, some of them are approaching unmanageable tbh. They're not usually as bad when at home in a stable environment but when brought to a mart or other strange setup they go cracked entirely.

It's a bad sign when a calf a day or 2 old is flighty, there usually fairly docile for the first few days while they figure out what's what in the world. Anything that's wild from the get go usually turns out to be a total lunatic as time goes on in my experience.

A neighbour had a bull calf with Spastic paresis a few year's back and due to his condition he was fattened and slaughtered as a beef bull. The bull in question was demented wild and would start trembling with fear when approached and attempt to charge when cornered. The cow he was bred out of is a quiet animal and calved that particular calf outside in late spring. Her owner went down the field in a few hours after she calved to throw an eye on both cow and calf. He couldn't find the calf and started searching through an area of rushes and eventually came across the sleeping calf. As soon as the calf noticed him he seemingly let a bellow and took off through the rushes and nearby hedge and finished up in the adjoining field, remember he was only a few hours old at this stage. My neighbour said he knew straight away that the calf would always be a wild hoor and he was 100% right in that assumption.

dh1985

Auld lad would walk through the cattle and spend decent amount of time with them daily. 95% as quiet as lambs. The rest would still be manageable and follow you if called. Work a paddock system here and think it has a lot to do with it as well as the handling. They would knock you over alright but it would be looking for a scratch is all.

Say my name

Greyside's crowd will be doing eye tests on calves shortly. :pac:

Cattle can't roll their eyes like humans can apparently.
I wonder is eye muscle linked to docility?
The actual eye not rib eye muscle.

SuperTeeJay

Hard Knocks wrote: »

A few minutes every day is all it needs

Correct.It's all about the way they are handled from birth.Calves here born inside will always be quiet as they are used to close human contact twice daily.Dosent matter what breed they are.Salers/lims cows are our quietest cows here.The odd cow that calves in April/May their calves will not be as quiet due to less contact.

K.G.

Our fr heifers are absolutely belting the living daylight s out of us at the moment.they just being friendly rubbing off youbut you d want to be careful with them

Finty Lemon

Count Mondego wrote: »

I can't wait for the day that Irish dairy farms aren't producing pure dirt beef cattle.

Most suckler bred cattle are scrap despite the perception of good beef genetics.
Bred from bad stock bulls, badly fed cows with no milk, born too late, fed shyte silage as weanlings, non existent grass management in year 2.
The fact that ICSA were calling for upward movement on 30 month limits says it all about the suckler sector.

grassroot1

The amount of lads that have got kicked by suckler cows must be very high
well on this threat anyway

Who2

grassroot1 wrote: »

The amount of lads that have got kicked by suckler cows must be very high
well on this threat anyway

They are the devil, I think they started COVID too.

Grueller

grassroot1 wrote: »

The amount of lads that have got kicked by suckler cows must be very high
well on this threat anyway

I think a lot of lads would have.

I bought in 4 bulling heifers once upon a time (2014), they were 7/8 limousin, not wild but excitable when the routine was broken. I was loading them from a slatted pen to go to the out farm and one ran straight through me. My heel stuck in the slat as I fell and I heard an awful crack before excruciating pain. I had torn my posterior cruciate ligament. It is the lesser known, lesser damaged brother of the anterior cruciate ligament.
I underwent two operations and have never been the same since. I got back to playing sport but was never the same ever since. I now walk with my right foot slightly turned out and over after it. That in turn is causing my ankle to roll slightly. Any frosty day I now have my share of pain in that knee and ankle.
I am not saying that it is only sucklers that cause injury but that is my gift from sucklers. Now to be fair I have a first cousin that stepped off a kerb and twisted his knee and ended up with a drop foot from it so there you go.

Albert Johnson

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Most suckler bred cattle are scrap despite the perception of good beef genetics.
Bred from bad stock bulls, badly fed cows with no milk, born too late, fed shyte silage as weanlings, non existent grass management in year 2.
The fact that ICSA were calling for upward movement on 30 month limits says it all about the suckler sector.

I wouldn't go as far as to say "Most suckler bred cattle are scrap" but there's plenty of poor coloured continental cattle about. You've raised valid points as to genetics and the nutritional treatment of stock particularly as calves/weanlings.

A lot of lad's will keep any sort of a heifer to make a cow, throw a scrub bull on her and keep her and the resulting calf on a rough spot that's eaten to the clay and still expect €800 for runt of a weanling in November. I've yet to encounter any animal that survives on fresh air and sprat rushes, let it be a FRx or a double muscled BB they all need looking after or you'll end up with a total screw. If you make a bad job of suckler's then you'll make a bad or even worse job of calf to beef, weanling or store to beef ect. A suckler cow is fairly forgiving in that she'll eat any auld bad grass or silage, granted she might not milk off it or go back incalf but she'll live on it all the same. If you put a bundle of reared calves into some of the spots I see suckler cow's they'd melt away and with store's you'd end up selling them at lighter weights then they were bought.

Cavanjack

Hard Knocks wrote: »

A few minutes every day is all it needs

Buy in nearly all continental cattle here and rarely have a problem with wild ones. If they are wild it’s straight into the shed for fattening. 2 altogether since September and one of them was a quiet enough stag but didn’t want to chance him out to grass with the rest of the bullocks this year.
Walk through them twice a day when they arrive or when they go to grass in the spring. Use paddocks here so find that helps. Have a good few bulls and struggle to get them up some of these mornings they are that settled.
Walked through a field of friesian heifers a few weeks ago and thought I wouldn’t get out of the field. Pets!

Albert Johnson

Cavanjack wrote: »

Buy in nearly all continental cattle here and rarely have a problem with wild ones. If they are wild it’s straight into the shed for fattening. 2 altogether since September and one of them was a quiet enough stag but didn’t want to chance him out to grass with the rest of the bullocks this year.
Walk through them twice a day when they arrive or when they go to grass in the spring. Use paddocks here so find that helps. Have a good few bulls and struggle to get them up some of these mornings they are that settled.
Walked through a field of friesian heifers a few weeks ago and thought I wouldn’t get out of the field. Pets!

I never thought I'd say it but if there too quiet it can be problematic and almost dangerous at times. I was doing a bit of fencing for a fella lately and he had a mix of CHx and HEx bullocks in the field. The CHx were bought as weanlings last autumn and the HEX were bought and reared as sucks in spring 2020 (lockdown project for the kids).

The CHx are far from wild but maintained a respectful distance and went about grazing while we were working. The HEX are pets and a pure nuisance as they are stuck in everything, one of them ate the cardboard box the staples come in and another chewed the handle of a hammer I left down for a minute. There continually looking to be scratched and will walk in on top of you or butt you with there heads if being ignored, tbh I'd be wary of letting children near them because it's one thing when there a suck calf but another when there touching 500kg.

Charolois 19

Albert Johnson wrote: »

I never thought I'd say it but if there too quiet it can be problematic and almost dangerous at times. I was doing a bit of fencing for a fella lately and he had a mix of CHx and HEx bullocks in the field. The CHx were bought as weanlings last autumn and the HEX were bought and reared as sucks in spring 2020 (lockdown project for the kids).

The CHx are far from wild but maintained a respectful distance and went about grazing while we were working. The HEX are pets and a pure nuisance as they are stuck in everything, one of them ate the cardboard box the staples come in and another chewed the handle of a hammer I left down for a minute. There continually looking to be scratched and will walk in on top of you or butt you with there heads if being ignored, tbh I'd be wary of letting children near them because it's one thing when there a suck calf but another when there touching 500kg.

Christ but it's the truth, I bought in two shx from the dairy herd just as a experiment, never again, both would be 400+ mark now, but one impretucular is dangerous looking for scratches and petting, they won't leave you alone for a second, the rest are curious without overstepping the line, but id be weary of the neice or nephew without a gate between them

MIKEKC

cute geoge wrote: »

Not been smart ,but suckling is dying slowly .The future for beefi n this country is raising dairy x beef bred .AA comand the premium price in the factory that is what lidl/aldi want anyway.Would not be better off chancing a few beefxdairy bred suck calves .At the moment you could pick them up handy and they are easier handle then sucklers and it would suprise me if they would not leave you with more profit

Agree completely the only thing I can't understand is why it's taking so long to die. Had a lot of sucklers here, as soon as decoupling came in sucklers went out. Dairy bred beef now. Making as much money with a lot less hardship.

Base price

K.G. wrote: »

Our fr heifers are absolutely belting the living daylight s out of us at the moment.they just being friendly rubbing off youbut you d want to be careful with them

The same goes with all our FR/HEx/AAx and continental calves that we reared even though I said I wouldn't buy in calves to rear this year. Hand reared calves are different and can't be classed in the same bracket as suckler reared calves. IMO teat/bucket reared bulls (especially dairy breeds) are the most dangerous when the reach sexual maturity from 16months/2yo as they have no fear of humans.
I've had a few aggressive suckler cows over the years but for only a few days after calving and they would settle back to normal. The most aggressive animal that I ever came across was a nine year old Friesian cull cow that we bought in. She was a fookin bitch and would charge across the field as soon as she saw you. She lasted less than two weeks before she got her non return ticket.

Albert Johnson

Base price wrote: »

The same goes with all our FR/HEx/AAx and continental calves that we reared even though I said I wouldn't buy in calves to rear this year. Hand reared calves are different and can't be classed in the same bracket as suckler reared calves. IMO teat/bucket reared bulls (especially dairy breeds) are the most dangerous when the reach sexual maturity from 16months/2yo as they have no fear of humans.
I've had a few aggressive suckler cows over the years but for only a few days after calving and they would settle back to normal. The most aggressive animal that I ever came across was a nine year old Friesian cull cow that we bought in. She was a fookin bitch and would charge across the field as soon as she saw you. She lasted less than two weeks before she got her non return ticket.

You'd wonder how the cow came to make it to be nine year's old if she was that aggressive? I'm not doubting your story as you'd have as much experience with stock as anyone but surely she wasn't that bad for her previous owner to have kept her that long. Sometimes an animal that's a real pet for one person can be downright dangerous in strange situations for different people.

An elderly local man landed to the mart with a cull cow of his own one evening. He wouldn't be in great form and had an older Merc lorry with a heavy timber ramp and loading gate's. I dropped the ramp and let off the cow who looked to be visibly agitated. Sure enough she ran down off the lorry and I just got the pen gate closed when she charged, I'd be well used of wild stock but this cow would do serious harm to you if she could at the time. By then her owner was out of the lorry and couldn't believe how aggressive the cow was, he'd only have a small herd in a tie up byre and said that he could do anything with the cow at home. The cow was pacing around the pen, pawing the ground and looking for an escape. Her owner walked over and started scratching her through the bars and talking to her. Being honest I thought she'd break his arm but she actually settled enough to get her up the chute. It's amazing that they know who's good to them, if anyone else had went near her she'd have gave it to them but she calmed down for him.

Base price

Albert Johnson wrote: »

You'd wonder how the cow came to make it to be nine year's old if she was that aggressive? I'm not doubting your story as you'd have as much experience with stock as anyone but surely she wasn't that bad for her previous owner to have kept her that long. Sometimes an animal that's a real pet for one person can be downright dangerous in strange situations for different people.

An elderly local man landed to the mart with a cull cow of his own one evening. He wouldn't be in great form and had an older Merc lorry with a heavy timber ramp and loading gate's. I dropped the ramp and let off the cow who looked to be visibly agitated. Sure enough she ran down off the lorry and I just got the pen gate closed when she charged, I'd be well used of wild stock but this cow would do serious harm to you if she could at the time. By then her owner was out of the lorry and couldn't believe how aggressive the cow was, he'd only have a small herd in a tie up byre and said that he could do anything with the cow at home. The cow was pacing around the pen, pawing the ground and looking for an escape. Her owner walked over and started scratching her through the bars and talking to her. Being honest I thought she'd break his arm but she actually settled enough to get her up the chute. It's amazing that they know who's good to them, if anyone else had went near her she'd have gave it to them but she calmed down for him.

Maybe it was the same fookin cow :rolleyes:
OH phoned the guy that sold her through the mart - Ireland is a small place and it's not that difficult to know someone that knows that person and get their phone number. He bought her as a springer and said that he had not issues with her other than she was a bit flighty in the parlour and the field. He sold her cause she had a high milk cell count.

Danzy

If you haven't found yourself lying in shi7 next to the crush,with a sore head wondering where you are or what happened....

wrangler

Albert Johnson wrote: »

You'd wonder how the cow came to make it to be nine year's old if she was that aggressive? I'm not doubting your story as you'd have as much experience with stock as anyone but surely she wasn't that bad for her previous owner to have kept her that long. Sometimes an animal that's a real pet for one person can be downright dangerous in strange situations for different people.

An elderly local man landed to the mart with a cull cow of his own one evening. He wouldn't be in great form and had an older Merc lorry with a heavy timber ramp and loading gate's. I dropped the ramp and let off the cow who looked to be visibly agitated. Sure enough she ran down off the lorry and I just got the pen gate closed when she charged, I'd be well used of wild stock but this cow would do serious harm to you if she could at the time. By then her owner was out of the lorry and couldn't believe how aggressive the cow was, he'd only have a small herd in a tie up byre and said that he could do anything with the cow at home. The cow was pacing around the pen, pawing the ground and looking for an escape. Her owner walked over and started scratching her through the bars and talking to her. Being honest I thought she'd break his arm but she actually settled enough to get her up the chute. It's amazing that they know who's good to them, if anyone else had went near her she'd have gave it to them but she calmed down for him.

The bunch of cattle that I had that took 5 weeks to get in went into the shed for fattening for three months.
The day they went to the factory the lorry backed into the factory and as soon as we let down the ramp they charged out smashing the gates before we opened them. They never quietened down despite being in the shed for three months

DBK1

Albert Johnson wrote: »

I never thought I'd say it but if there too quiet it can be problematic and almost dangerous at times. I was doing a bit of fencing for a fella lately and he had a mix of CHx and HEx bullocks in the field. The CHx were bought as weanlings last autumn and the HEX were bought and reared as sucks in spring 2020 (lockdown project for the kids).

The CHx are far from wild but maintained a respectful distance and went about grazing while we were working. The HEX are pets and a pure nuisance as they are stuck in everything, one of them ate the cardboard box the staples come in and another chewed the handle of a hammer I left down for a minute. There continually looking to be scratched and will walk in on top of you or butt you with there heads if being ignored, tbh I'd be wary of letting children near them because it's one thing when there a suck calf but another when there touching 500kg.

I keep both continentals and bucket reared white heads. The biggest issue I have is with a bunch of 5 U grade limousines that were bought in one batch last August. They are so quiet it’s impossible to do anything with them. They’re no problem out in the field as they’d follow you anywhere but getting them into the crush for dosing or anything is a disaster. A few times I had to actually put my shoulder to their arses and push them into the crush. That was ok when they were 350kgs but at 550-600 kgs now it’s not that simple.

I have a whitehead then that would follow you to Mars looking for a scratch in the field, try get her into a pen or crush and she’d kill you to get away so it’s not all simple with the dairy bred either.

I’ve a relation I help out with when it comes to dosing, loading stock etc. and it’s all bucket reared dairy bred bullocks he keeps. A pure nightmare to do anything with, they are so quiet they won’t move anywhere. The haulier hates going down there to load as well. It wouldn’t be uncommon to spend an hour trying to load them. The ramp has to be all covered in straw, meal put in at the front of the trailer and try coax them in. One time it was that bad we had to get a gate behind them and gently keep pressure on it with the tractor loader to push them up the ramp. They would stand looking at the ramp all day no matter how how tightly they were penned up.

Give me a few flighty limousines any day of the week rather than that messing.

Toplink

Easten wrote: »

I have found the costs involved in the Suckler beef system have kept on rising and yet the prices for the cattle after do not match. Looking back over the life of one of the cows I culled this year She had 9 calves. Her 1st calf a bull made 720, her last calf sold a few weeks back another bull made 810.
90 euros price increase in 9 years.
Every other commodity has doubled in price in the last year.
Looking back on what I used to pay a few years back
Vet call out fees gone from 40 to 100
Weanlen Crunch gone from 5.50 to 8.50 / bag
Silage 9.50/bale to 13.5
Mart fees 5/head to 10
CAN 195 to 240
Farm Insurance 375 to 705

I could list many more but the main point is the beef price has not risen in line with these. Lads telling me cattle are very dear now at the moment. Jezz I'd hate to see what they think low prices are.
I run what I think is a fairly average farm, 27 Sucklers selling the Weanlens from 9 -12 months
Yes the ad Weanlen makes 1100 in the ring, but I also have the ad small heifer only making 700.
Doing the homework on the numbers I'm coming out with about 3.5k profit without paying myself a cent, add on the EU monies and I'm up to 10k. Feck knows what would happen if I ever went down with tb, the feed bills would be the end of it.
10k works out at less than 200 bucks a week. 200 bucks for a farming system where all you are basically doing is running to stand still.
Suckler beef is at the stage now where you would be better off keeping next to no animals and just collect the EU money

Thanks Easten,

I'll be using this data along with our own to present a business case to the ould fella for a method change in 2023.

Busy fools.

Finty Lemon

Curious about the notion that things used to be better for suckling farms, I went looking for old figures on suckling margins this evening.
The 2001 figures on average were as follows:

Gross output was €705 per hectare before premia.
Variable costs €465 leaving a gross margin of €240

Fixed costs were €435 per hectare leaving a dead loss of €195 per hectare
So in 2001 a standard 25 hectare farm was losing €4875 annually from suckling

Nothing has changed in almost a quarter century. It doesn't make money, it never did, it never will.

I dont see why more farmers exiting breeding beef cattle don't go in to agreements with neighbouring dairy farmers to buy there calves on farm and avoid mart fees etc.

Other options could be contract rearing of heifers etc. It would avoid all the trips to the mart for part time operators.

If staying in sucklers then its key in my opinion to have an easy calving bull, use clover, have a tight calving window, try to shorten winter costs.

Suckler bred bullocks should be well over 400 kg at the factory at 26 months or something is up.

If going down the dairy stock route then id buy plain fresans bullocks or hereford heifers and only have them in for December through to mid Feb if possible.

Finty Lemon

Deleted User wrote: »

I dont see why more farmers exiting breeding beef cattle don't go in to agreements with neighbouring dairy farmers to buy there calves on farm and avoid mart fees etc.

Other options could be contract rearing of heifers etc. It would avoid all the trips to the mart for part time operators.

If staying in sucklers then its key in my opinion to have an easy calving bull, use clover, have a tight calving window, try to shorten winter costs.

Suckler bred bullocks should be well over 400 kg at the factory at 26 months or something is up.

If going down the dairy stock route then id buy plain fresans bullocks or hereford heifers and only have them in for December through to mid Feb if possible.

I think you miss the point that going to the mart is a big part of the attraction for some lads. Nothing beats selling a pen of shapy red weanling bulls for big money, irrespective of the costs behind them. Friesians and black whiteheads just don't have that buzz. I know one man who walked away from a relatively profitable contact rearing enterprise because he missed the mart too much. He made money from the heifers off the dairy man but it burned a hole in his pocket so he had to back to the ring. An addict :rolleyes:

Dinzee Conlee

Finty Lemon wrote: »

I think you miss the point that going to the mart is a big part of the attraction for some lads. Nothing beats selling a pen of shapy red weanling bulls for big money, irrespective of the costs behind them. Friesians and black whiteheads just don't have that buzz. I know one man who walked away from a relatively profitable contact rearing enterprise because he missed the mart too much. He made money from the heifers off the dairy man but it burned a hole in his pocket so he had to back to the ring. An addict :rolleyes:

Ah, but Finty, what are we all here but addicts. Why would anyone chose to work in a minimum wage, dangerous job when there are better jobs to be had, except they are addicted...

Just cos you might have a classier drug like black and whites that leave you slightly more money - doesn't mean you're not an addict either

_Brian

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Ah, but Finty, what are we all here but addicts. Why would anyone chose to work in a minimum wage, dangerous job when there are better jobs to be had, except they are addicted...

Just cos you might have a classier drug like black and whites that leave you slightly more money - doesn't mean you're not an addict either

Minority of the discussion is if lads are making an insignificant amount or small profit, but, for the majority in suckling in particular the discussion is around how much they are loosing in reality. 60-70% at last I saw were at best break even.

Dinzee Conlee

_Brian wrote: »

Minority of the discussion is if lads are making an insignificant amount or small profit, but, for the majority in suckling in particular the discussion is around how much they are loosing in reality. 60-70% at last I saw were at best break even.

Oh, I know. My post was mainly in jest.

Finty Lemon

Finty Lemon wrote: »

I think you miss the point that going to the mart is a big part of the attraction for some lads. Nothing beats selling a pen of shapy red weanling bulls for big money, irrespective of the costs behind them. Friesians and black whiteheads just don't have that buzz. I know one man who walked away from a relatively profitable contact rearing enterprise because he missed the mart too much. He made money from the heifers off the dairy man but it burned a hole in his pocket so he had to back to the ring. An addict :rolleyes:

He could do the heifers and the mart and break even

MIKEKC

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Curious about the notion that things used to be better for suckling farms, I went looking for old figures on suckling margins this evening.
The 2001 figures on average were as follows:

Gross output was €705 per hectare before premia.
Variable costs €465 leaving a gross margin of €240

Fixed costs were €435 per hectare leaving a dead loss of €195 per hectare
So in 2001 a standard 25 hectare farm was losing €4875 annually from suckling

Nothing has changed in almost a quarter century. It doesn't make money, it never did, it never will.

I see that Derek Dean is pushing his campaign for a coupled payment for suckler cows. According to DAFM he is getting over e55,000 in payments. He is already getting a coupled payment from the reference period and now wants another which will of course mean another cut in everyone's payment. He certainly produces good stock so I presume these leave a profit. (If not he should change his system). One wonders what the man expects given the overall budget is being cut. There are thousands of farmers making do with a lot less

Finty Lemon

MIKEKC wrote: »

I see that Derek Dean is pushing his campaign for a coupled payment for suckler cows. According to DAFM he is getting over e55,000 in payments. He is already getting a coupled payment from the reference period and now wants another which will of course mean another cut in everyone's payment. He certainly produces good stock so I presume these leave a profit. (If not he should change his system). One wonders what the man expects given the overall budget is being cut. There are thousands of farmers making do with a lot less

Can anyone justify the proposal for a coupled suckler cow payment in 2021?

Bass Reeves

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Can anyone justify the proposal for a coupled suckler cow payment in 2021?

There is a cohort out there that think the Suckler cow is the most important production vehicle since the sliced pan arrived.

Most are divorced from economic reality. For many of them they see it as a way of reducing the effect of convergence which is coming down the track like a runaway train.

While some consider the failure of EU Parliament, Comission and Council of Ministers to reach an agreement as a victory for those against convergence it is far from it. Most momentum is for convergence, front loading and payment capping.

The general thrust now is for capping in Ireland to be below 100k and maybe in the 60-80k range. The argument against convergence is flawed as well with front loading likely to help balance to any smaller farm units. It interesting that Flor McCarthy had harsh words about the upward only convergence that IFA was selling as the answer to convergence which we all knew was BS but the agri media never challenged them.on it.

Now we have an attempt to trap farmers with coupled payments that will encourage lads to hold onto or to re-enter suckling and encourage overproduction to benefit processor's.

It just show the lack of commercial reality by these lads and the unquestioning attitude of a lot of the agri media

Grueller

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Can anyone justify the proposal for a coupled suckler cow payment in 2021?

No. Complete folly and I have 40+ sucklers here alongside a small dairy herd. I will be letting them off next spring/summer and rearing on the cattle from the dairy herd.

grassroot1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is a cohort out there that think the Suckler cow is the most important production vehicle since the sliced pan arrived.

Most are divorced from economic reality. For many of them they see it as a way of reducing the effect of convergence which is coming down the track like a runaway train.

While some consider the failure of EU Parliament, Comission and Council of Ministers to reach an agreement as a victory for those against convergence it is far from it. Most momentum is for convergence, front loading and payment capping.

The general thrust now is for capping in Ireland to be below 100k and maybe in the 60-80k range. The argument against convergence is flawed as well with front loading likely to help balance to any smaller farm units. It interesting that Flor McCarthy had harsh words about the upward only convergence that IFA was selling as the answer to convergence which we all knew was BS but the agri media never challenged them.on it.

Now we have an attempt to trap farmers with coupled payments that will encourage lads to hold onto or to re-enter suckling and encourage overproduction to benefit processor's.

It just show the lack of commercial reality by these lads and the unquestioning attitude of a lot of the agri media

Capping wont work those with the bigger entitlements will just split the holding and form companies some already have.

grassroot1

Grueller wrote: »

No. Complete folly and I have 40+ sucklers here alongside a small dairy herd. I will be letting them off next spring/summer and rearing on the cattle from the dairy herd.

With respect you would say that, if you are leaving suckler production and moving into dairy/dairy beef
I cannot see west Cavan and Leitrim becoming a hot bed of calf to beef units.
Historical payments are wrong as are payments for owning land whether producing or not so we are back I guess trying to define an "active" farmer

_Brian

grassroot1 wrote: »

With respect you would say that, if you are leaving suckler production and moving into dairy/dairy beef
I cannot see west Cavan and Leitrim becoming a hot bed of calf to beef units.
Historical payments are wrong as are payments for owning land whether producing or not so we are back I guess trying to define an "active" farmer

But west Cavan will have long expensive winters for hungry suckler cows, marginal land isn’t the most productive for heavy cows.

Bass Reeves

grassroot1 wrote: »

Capping wont work those with the bigger entitlements will just split the holding and form companies some already have.

While some will up to half will not will the Goldophin farm or Ballydoyle split up there setup to claim the payment. Will the farms owned by Larry do it maybe they will but unlikly. Any farm in a company setup would struggle to disentangle payments out of the company into individuals names. It could create tax implications that would out weight any longterm benefit this would be especially where the benefit might be marginal. As well it might make sense to some to opt out of greening if you could secure the rest within the cap.

grassroot1 wrote: »

With respect you would say that, if you are leaving suckler production and moving into dairy/dairy beef
I cannot see west Cavan and Leitrim becoming a hot bed of calf to beef units.
Historical payments are wrong as are payments for owning land whether producing or not so we are back I guess trying to define an "active" farmer

The problem is that coupling payment encourages production for the sake of production. As well at present there is a a structure payment to sucklers of about 150-180/cow. this would not be compatible with a couple payment. Suckler farmers could be no better off with maybe a lump of money gone from the pot

amacca

Deleted User wrote: »

I dont see why more farmers exiting breeding beef cattle don't go in to agreements with neighbouring dairy farmers to buy there calves on farm and avoid mart fees etc.
.

Because there are less of them producing a calf that's worth rearing. It's not viable either imo

Narrow arsed short gestation runts off bony extreme friesians.

By the time you put in the milk replacer, crunch nuts, dose, squeeze, dehorn, winter (probably twice with a good percentage of them with associated costs like silage minerals etc) you are also losing money.....they would need to be paying you to take certain stock from the dairy herd imo

And then on the other side where they arent the worst stock they are looking for good/to very good money for only average stuff reducing the margin too.

The simple fact is a lot of the time there's either been too much charged or not enough paid out the other end if you are a calf rearer. ( obviously its still worthwhile for some eg: Maybe if you have economies of scale and can pump them from the get go with meal or something)

Finty Lemon

grassroot1 wrote: »

With respect you would say that, if you are leaving suckler production and moving into dairy/dairy beef
I cannot see west Cavan and Leitrim becoming a hot bed of calf to beef units.
Historical payments are wrong as are payments for owning land whether producing or not so we are back I guess trying to define an "active" farmer

Leitrim is funnily enough becoming a hotbed of dairy calf rearing, if such a term can be used. There's a good share of lads rearing dairy stock and getting on well at it. Mixing with sheep seems to be working. Continental cows and heavy land was always a strange combination.

Albert Johnson

_Brian wrote: »

But west Cavan will have long expensive winters for hungry suckler cows, marginal land isn’t the most productive for heavy cows.

Marginal ground isn't very productive for anything tbh, the clue being in the term marginal. Let it be in West Cavan or West Mayo I don't see dairy calf to beef being the salvation of reformed suckler farmer's in most cases. Granted suckling wasn't ever a profitable endeavour ever since the payments were uncoupled but I don't think looking at a shed of black and white bullocks will be much better (or cheaper) from October to May.

Grueller

grassroot1 wrote: »

With respect you would say that, if you are leaving suckler production and moving into dairy/dairy beef
I cannot see west Cavan and Leitrim becoming a hot bed of calf to beef units.
Historical payments are wrong as are payments for owning land whether producing or not so we are back I guess trying to define an "active" farmer

But Grassroot, why am I leaving it? If you are involved in the cattle trade in and around Carnew mart you will know the local man that buys the weanlings for shipping. He buys nothing under €3 per kilo. He has bought the lions share of my weanlings with years. I still can't make any meaningful money, even at that money. Why would you couple such a thing again?

Albert Johnson

Albert Johnson wrote: »

Marginal ground isn't very productive for anything tbh, the clue being in the term marginal.

I despise the term (not your fault at all).

A lot of land isn't managed right, it's missing a lot of factors that would improve it significantly and is receiving a lot of treatments that only aid it in failing harder.

Abuse something enough through lack of knowledge it won't be productive.

grassroot1

Grueller wrote: »

But Grassroot, why am I leaving it? If you are involved in the cattle trade in and around Carnew mart you will know the local man that buys the weanlings for shipping. He buys nothing under €3 per kilo. He has bought the lions share of my weanlings with years. I still can't make any meaningful money, even at that money. Why would you couple such a thing again?

I am afraid the only show in town is dairying and I am not criticising your move its logical but you can move to dairy and hold you bps which is based on historical production in suckler beef.
I just think a coupled payment is better than a payment per acre.
Poor performing suckler farmers wont make excellent calf to beef units either.
The reality is no beef system is viable

Grueller

grassroot1 wrote: »

I am afraid the only show in town is dairying and I am not criticising your move its logical but you can move to dairy and hold you bps which is based on historical production in suckler beef.
I just think a coupled payment is better than a payment per acre.
Poor performing suckler farmers wont make excellent calf to beef units either.
The reality is no beef system is viable

Unfortunately Grassroot I was a young farmer that bought his entitlements himself. I could only afford units of €78 value at the time. Convergence has helped but trust me, I have no big legacy payments from sucklers.

Anto_Meath

If you have a farmer with marginal land and he is running 15 -20 suckler he would lot less work to do than if he was rearing 40 -50 dairy beef calves. Many of these lads are part time farmers so sucklers suits them.

Albert Johnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I despise the term (not your fault at all).

A lot of land isn't managed right, it's missing a lot of factors that would improve it significantly and is receiving a lot of treatments that only aid it in failing harder.

Abuse something enough through lack of knowledge it won't be productive.

I'm not that fond of the term either but it is what it is. Management does play a part and undoubtedly horsing out slurry and compound fertiliser ab lib isn't a help in most cases. However mankind has spent hundreds if not thousands of years trying to make land out of bog, heather, rock and daub in certain areas. Even after generations of Herculean effort (think of The Field) a lot of it is little better than a resting place for wild fowl. Let it be Frx bullocks or CHx cows and calves I can't see either excelling on such ground.

Albert Johnson

Albert Johnson wrote: »

I'm not that fond of the term either but it is what it is. Management does play a part and undoubtedly horsing out slurry and compound fertiliser ab lib isn't a help in most cases. However mankind has spent hundreds if not thousands of years trying to make land out of bog, heather, rock and daub in certain areas. Even after generations of Herculean effort (think of The Field) a lot of it is little better than a resting place for wild fowl. Let it be Frx bullocks or CHx cows and calves I can't see either excelling on such ground.

It is what it is, depending on perspective, it's amazing what a change in perspective does. I would suggest most farmers would benefit considerably spending a few thousand exploring knowledge of soil health, holistic management and the like. Running heavy cont cattle on ground where more suitable primitive breeds would thrive, for example, appears to be a basic error.

Bass Reeves

grassroot1 wrote: »

I am afraid the only show in town is dairying and I am not criticising your move its logical but you can move to dairy and hold you bps which is based on historical production in suckler beef.
I just think a coupled payment is better than a payment per acre.
Poor performing suckler farmers wont make excellent calf to beef units either.
The reality is no beef system is viable

The problem is if no beef system is viable ( and I disagree) and thee is little difference in margin why do you subsidize one to maintain or increase production which pulls down the price of all product. It really come down to farmers unwilling to change there system.

There are a few other reasons to stay away from coupling. On better land it may encourage farmers to remain in sucklers rather than change to Dairy X beef or to dairying and even into sheep. While on marginal land where often BPS payments are small you are double rewarding some farmers with increased unit payments and a coupled payment. Suckler payments decimated sheep production from a lot of marginal land. Neither do I think that there should be a ewe premia as sheep is now the most profitable drystock sector and there should be no encouragement given to lads to enter it which may drag down profitability again.

Whether we like it or not milk production will expand for a while more. calf numbers will increase and we are only one newspaper or TV scoop/program away from a calf export ban. We have to deal with the reality that we are heading for a kill of over 30K/week from the dairy sector alone if exports are banned. On the other side we have 850-900K suckler cows producing about 650K calves at very low profitability.

Decouple payments give you a choice to what method of production you decide there should be no other encouragement to farm any system.....I even think the suckler and ewe as well as bull calf production schemes should be stopped and let lads manage there system with in a converged payment system with whatever eco payments are available

grassroot1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The problem is if no beef system is viable ( and I disagree) and thee is little difference in margin why do you subsidize one to maintain or increase production which pulls down the price of all product. It really come down to farmers unwilling to change there system.

There are a few other reasons to stay away from coupling. On better land it may encourage farmers to remain in sucklers rather than change to Dairy X beef or to dairying and even into sheep. While on marginal land where often BPS payments are small you are double rewarding some farmers with increased unit payments and a coupled payment. Suckler payments decimated sheep production from a lot of marginal land. Neither do I think that there should be a ewe premia as sheep is now the most profitable drystock sector and there should be no encouragement given to lads to enter it which may drag down profitability again.

Whether we like it or not milk production will expand for a while more. calf numbers will increase and we are only one newspaper or TV scoop/program away from a calf export ban. We have to deal with the reality that we are heading for a kill of over 30K/week from the dairy sector alone if exports are banned. On the other side we have 850-900K suckler cows producing about 650K calves at very low profitability.

Decouple payments give you a choice to what method of production you decide there should be no other encouragement to farm any system.....I even think the suckler and ewe as well as bull calf production schemes should be stopped and let lads manage there system with in a converged payment system with whatever eco payments are available

In effect though you are using beef farmers payments to solve dairy farmers problems.
The suckler is being scapegoated to allow the expansion of dairy on two counts.
1. Remove the suckler and make beef farmers buy the problem excess dairy calves, transferring the beef mans bps to the dairy man in the process.
2. Removing the suckler cow will lessen the need for dairy cows to be removed to sort the climate bill.
If you believe that too many beef animals are coming to market because of the suckler cow Bass then you also have to blame the dairy cross calf and the cull dairy cow.
I agree with you however suckler beef production is unviable.