Three men arrested after shocking incident involving bar staff on South William Stree

PokeHerKing

PokeHerKing wrote: »

IMHO actions are dictated by the punishment, doesn't matter how many gards are around, if the punishment is a slap on the wrist then it emboldens the perps regardless of the Gards.

Think I read somewhere, criminal actions are a function of the probability of being caught

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

What would you have done?

They were outnumbered substantially. They should have isolated each of them.

There is a guy there with a coat that has yellow at the top. He was running through them to isolate them and throw them off.

I haven't been back to Dublin much since I left for home but I used to socialise on that street a lot and it's sad to see it being knackerised. My Dublin Granny used to say those flats were the slums of the future and she was so right.

dan1895

TheValeyard wrote: »

Always reminds me of this song. Probably be humming it all day now.

Absolute tune.

Kermit.de.frog

DancingDaisy1 wrote: »

They were outnumbered substantially. They should have isolated each of them.

There is a guy there with a coat that has yellow at the top. He was running through them to isolate them and throw them off.

I haven't been back to Dublin much since I left for home but I used to socialise on that street a lot and it's sad to see it being knackerised. My Dublin Granny used to say those flats were the slums of the future and she was so right.

The problems are multi faceted in the city. Too much to go in to in one post.

Part of the social issues is because of the council concentrating ever more social housing in the city center.

When you do that it won't only bring in people who are down on their luck and genuinely make an effort but it also brings a portion of society's ills.

For the latter the city center becomes the natural playground and it's a downward spiral because ordinary people see this stuff and decide it's not worth while going in to town anymore.

Essentially the place is being hollowed out bit by bit.

Then you have the own goal of the drug clinics to top it off.

They are two key problems but there are just so many from policing to justice to housing policy it's hard to know where to begin.

The fact is that those in charge don't care about the city center and it shows in their decisions.

Part of me is glad that some south side areas are now experiencing what has been more and more common on the northside...open drug use, random scraps and assaults...because maybe now the issue will get more attention.

AlekSmart

Deleted User wrote: »

Were you a primary or secondary school teacher? I have a feeling that if primary school teachers were honest they can tell 95%+ of the time how a kid will turn out from the first couple of days of school and meeting the parents.
The pandering to the lowest ability and standard continues to degenerate across the board. I've kept an eye on any syllabus "updates" since I left school and it's just constant removing of content.
As you say the kids who try and who are capable get basically nothing. Obviously big picture you can get benefits later but a kid from the age of 5 being told "in about 18 years this will all pay off now excuse me while I spend the day with the arseholes" is pretty unfair and the kids who might actually do something end up losing out again.

A VERY accurate summation of the issue,which is now reflected across our entire society,all the way up to our Parliament.

We have watched as the very notion of reaching a standard has been removed across society,but then express surprise at the poor quality of our Governments ?

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The trouble is that you don't really have an inalienable right to defend yourself in Ireland. This should be absolutely changed and codified in law to provide more options for victims rather than having to stand there and take it.

Yes you do.

Self defence is recognised in common law and affirmed in the UK case Beckford 1988 and Palmer 1971 for the UK. We can draw assumptions from that.

It was set in law under Section 18, Non Fatal offences against the Person Act 1997

and

Section 2, Criminal justice (Defence of dwelling) Act 2011

How many laws do you want?

winstonia83

winstonia83 wrote: »

It's time for the Gardai to start carrying guns as well like most other European countries. Seems us and UK are the only 2 that don't and nowhere else in Europe would people speak to the police like us and the brits.

We don't have to go that far straight away. In mainland Europe I'm small compared to most of the cops. Even in Amsterdam you could have a laugh with the cops but it was perfectly obvious that they could kick the absolute ****e out of anyone if they needed to. :pac:

Unfortunately we again see the lack of standards along with designing for a fictional, aspirational world where everything is done with assent from everyone.. Gardai shouldn't be "intimidating", their size and physical ability shouldn't matter, all that nonsense.
We got rid of the modest height requirement, because it was discriminatory. Well guess what, discrimination is an important aspect of an awful lot of things. I don't want a surgeon who's half cut or who didn't go to medical school. That's discrimination right there. Gardai/police who ever get out from behind a desk should be able to take care of themselves and provide some kind of a presence. A 5 foot 2 12 stone Garda doesn't do that.

lawred2

How hard would it be to have two guards on the beat at each end of these streets. A visible presence of twenty/thirty guards on the beat would knock most of this crap on the head without much need for physical intervention.

What exactly are our guards doing?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't want a surgeon who's half cut or who didn't go to medical school.

Jesus wept, you are using that to defend a height restriction in the police? You dont see any difference?

Deleted User wrote: »

A 5 foot 2 12 stone Garda doesn't do that.

At 12 stone for 5ft 2in that cop would be pretty well stacked. Should be about 10 stone.

Not withstanding that. I guarantee its the small cops that have the most experience of physical confrontation. If they are still on the beat in the uniform, you can bet your ass they can handle the situations.

Your sincerley
A short arse

conorhal

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The trouble is that you don't really have an inalienable right to defend yourself in Ireland. This should be absolutely changed and codified in law to provide more options for victims rather than having to stand there and take it.

Even in the video the staff are pretending to try and hit them, not actually hit them because they know full well they can't.

You give one of those scrotes a boot up the hole after they hit you with a bottle...guess who is getting the conviction?

That's the problem in those situations.

There really needs to be some sort of 'you started so I'll finish' clause added to legislation that indemnifies good samaritans that intervene and allows for victims to fight back. Something that amounts to 'your attacked someone and he f'd you up? That's a shame'. Something that measures the scrotes own liability for the injuries they suffer.
People's reactions should not be judged in equal terms as those of an aggressor.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We don't have to go that far straight away. In mainland Europe I'm small compared to most of the cops. Even in Amsterdam you could have a laugh with the cops but it was perfectly obvious that they could kick the absolute ****e out of anyone if they needed to. :pac:

Unfortunately we again see the lack of standards along with designing for a fictional, aspirational world where everything is done with assent from everyone.. Gardai shouldn't be "intimidating", their size and physical ability shouldn't matter, all that nonsense.
We got rid of the modest height requirement, because it was discriminatory. Well guess what, discrimination is an important aspect of an awful lot of things. I don't want a surgeon who's half cut or who didn't go to medical school. That's discrimination right there. Gardai/police who ever get out from behind a desk should be able to take care of themselves and provide some kind of a presence. A 5 foot 2 12 stone Garda doesn't do that.

Agree, Exercise and maintaining a certain level of fitness tested annually should be part of the role profile of being a Guard. Even if it means paying them to attend circuit training 2 days a week. Good physique instantly commands more respect. My phone was previously robbed from my hand by a young guy sprinting on Westmoreland St and I chased the guy followed by a Guard who was walking by the Westin. The guard couldn't keep up.

I managed to get the phone flung back at me.

lawred2

lawred2 wrote: »

How hard would it be to have two guards on the beat at each end of these streets. A visible presence of twenty/thirty guards on the beat would knock most of this crap on the head without much need for physical intervention.

What exactly are our guards doing?

Theres probable not 30 cops on duty in the entire Dublin 2. Each arrest requires the cop to return to the station and process the prisoner. If its a serious offence then the person must be detained, questioned, etc so thats those 2 cops of the beat for the rest of the tour.

then theres a plethora of actual other functions they must perform. response to reports, station duties like counter, radio. They need to attend court, cover the Dail, some get sick and others take leave.

Start with 30 on paper, you will probable have less than 15 on outdoor duties starting the shift. That will be further watered down as they take calls and deal with issues they encounter. By the end of the shift you might have 6 Gardai for the entire Dublin 2 area.

This gets dragged up constantly and I repeat myself. Theres only 15000 Gardai for the entire country. Split at present between office and operational duties. They cover protection posts, beats, cars, station duties, court including prosecuting cases. Most people dont realise that Gardai prosecute most cases themselves, that requires Gardai to attend court. They are in offices maintaining statistics and issuing letters and other stuff that people have demanded over the years despite the obvious reduction in operational staff.

Compare Ireland to other EU countries. The police have more duties with less officers.

Spain, circa 200k officers for 50 million population and they dont prosecute their own cases nor perform the non crime duties that Gardai do.

Hungary has a slighlty larger population but yet has more than double the police officers!

London MET has more cops for London than we have for the entire country.

The PSNI is at 6.7k officers to 1.8 million people. Thats not that much more than the republic but they cover an area thats only a quarter the size.

See where Im going with this?

PokeHerKing

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Jesus wept, you are using that to defend a height restriction in the police? You dont see any difference?



At 12 stone for 5ft 2in that cop would be pretty well stacked. Should be about 10 stone.

Not withstanding that. I guarantee its the small cops that have the most experience of physical confrontation. If they are still on the beat in the uniform, you can bet your ass they can handle the situations.

Your sincerley
A short arse

There's exceptions to every rule but broadly speaking a force of 6' plusers is going to have an easier time controlling a situation than 5'2 -5'10 group. Height and reach is a huge advantage in a fight. That’s not discriminatory, its fact.

Faugheen

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Yes you do.

Self defence is recognised in common law and affirmed in the UK case Beckford 1988 and Palmer 1971 for the UK. We can draw assumptions from that.

It was set in law under Section 18, Non Fatal offences against the Person Act 1997

and

Section 2, Criminal justice (Defence of dwelling) Act 2011

How many laws do you want?

They don't care about the laws that are or aren't there, it's all about making false or misleading statements to whip people up into a frenzy.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's discrimination right there. Gardai/police who ever get out from behind a desk should be able to take care of themselves and provide some kind of a presence. A 5 foot 2 12 stone Garda doesn't do that.

A 5 foot 2 Gardai could probably de escalate the situation without brute force and a GSOC enquiry

ClosedAccountFuzzy

A huge part of this is a judicial problem. I'm not saying that we need to lock people up at enormous expense but we do need to intervene properly and early with community service orders, social worker interventions, very tough use of the probation service and so on.

There are electronic tag enforced curfews and so on.

There's no need to go down the American crime & punishment route but we do need to start looking at how we can tackle what is seriously problematic antisocial behaviour and petty crime.

It's not even driven by theft or financial type motives, it's just sheer thuggery and aggression. It's basically bullying because they can bully without consequence.

I think we aren't taking it seriously enough.

We could also do with distinguishing between "children" and "youth". This notion of sending 16 and 17 year olds to the "children's court" sends all the wrong messages.

Even the name of it. Call it "the Youth Crime Tribunal" or something that doesn't sound like "Play Court".

Niner leprauchan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Jesus wept, you are using that to defend a height restriction in the police? You dont see any difference?

Like it or not it has an effect.

At 12 stone for 5ft 2in that cop would be pretty well stacked. Should be about 10 stone.

I'm being very generous with 12 stone for one I have in mind. The kids in the shop one time had great fun with him. :rolleyes:

Not withstanding that. I guarantee its the small cops that have the most experience of physical confrontation. If they are still on the beat in the uniform, you can bet your ass they can handle the situations.

They've survived but that's really not the point.

Your sincerley
A short arse

Ah, makes sense. I'm a fat **** and can accept that it makes me worse at some things. I'm bald as well so I'll never be a hair model. I'm not tall enough to make it as a basketball player either. But I'm too tall to make it as an F1 driver. I'm not talented enough to be a professional soccer player.
It's ok to accept that some things aren't for you.

conorhal

conorhal wrote: »

There really needs to be some sort of 'you started so I'll finish' clause added to legislation that indemnifies good samaritans that intervene and allows for victims to fight back. Something that amounts to 'your attacked someone and he f'd you up? That's a shame'. Something that measures the scrotes own liability for the injuries they suffer.
People's reactions should not be judged in equal terms as those of an aggressor.

Already exists in both civil and criminal law.

Civil law (Miscellaneous provisions) Act 2011 indemnifies a good samarathan from civil liability

Non fatal offences against the person Act 1997 and the Defence of Dwelling Act 2011 both grant a person the right to use force to defend themselves, other people, their property and that of other persons.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

A 5 foot 2 Gardai could probably de escalate the situation without brute force and a GSOC enquiry

De-escalation to a lot of people seems to mean letting the scum do what they want.
Letting kids run rings around the Gardai without "escalation" just reinforces the perception that there are no consequences to their actions. Big picture.

SeaFields

spurious wrote: »

No police, no whinging. They got their warning, didn't take it. Boo hoo.

I love Poland.

Saw the same in Portugal. English lad coked off his head. Refused admission. Try to throw a few punches at security. They gave back enough to put him on his hole. His friends dragged him away. Five minutes later he comes running back shirtless looking to finish it. He didn't walk away the second him. Police arrived. Quick word with bouncers as regards what happened. Drove off again happy they did what was needed.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Like it or not it has an effect.



I'm being very generous with 12 stone for one I have in mind. The kids in the shop one time had great fun with him. :rolleyes:


They've survived but that's really not the point.


Ah, makes sense. I'm a fat **** and can accept that it makes me worse at some things. I'm bald as well so I'll never be a hair model. I'm not tall enough to make it as a basketball player either. But I'm too tall to make it as an F1 driver. I'm not talented enough to be a professional soccer player.
It's ok to accept that some things aren't for you.

Stop digging and stop answering A with B. I didnt say 'survived' did I?

PokeHerKing

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Height and reach is a huge advantage in a fight. That’s not discriminatory, its fact.

Care to advise where I claimed it was?

PokeHerKing wrote: »

There's exceptions to every rule but broadly speaking a force of 6' plusers is going to have an easier time controlling a situation than 5'2 -5'10 group.

I disagree. Height is by far the lesser physicaly attribute required to dictate the outcome.

Theres many 6ft beanpoles that couldnt defend themselves and plenty of smaller women that are ferocious.

Theres also this thing called training. A certain Mr Mayweather or McGregor is taking your average 6ft beanpole every day of the week

Faugheen

Faugheen wrote: »

They don't care about the laws that are or aren't there, it's all about making false or misleading statements to whip people up into a frenzy.

I should have learnt by now

Professor Moriarty

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Care to advise where I claimed it was?



I disagree. Height is by far the lesser physicaly attribute required to dictate the outcome.

Theres many 6ft beanpoles that couldnt defend themselves and plenty of smaller women that are ferocious.

Theres also this thing called training. A certain Mr Mayweather or McGregor is taking your average 6ft beanpole every day of the week

It isn't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Mark Twain

PokeHerKing

[HTML][/HTML]

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Care to advise where I claimed it was?



I disagree. Height is by far the lesser physicaly attribute required to dictate the outcome.

Theres many 6ft beanpoles that couldnt defend themselves and plenty of smaller women that are ferocious.

Theres also this thing called training. A certain Mr Mayweather or McGregor is taking your average 6ft beanpole every day of the week

As I said, there's exceptions to every rule. Naming two top professional fighters as an example is the definition of the exceptions.

We're taking averages here as we're applying it to community policing. Your training comment is pretty weak as well. I'm still backing the well trained 6footer against the well trained 5'2 5'10.

Your average 6foot plus person is taking your average 5foot 2 person everyday of the week. That's the point. Plus from a visual perspective six 6' plus gards is more intimidating looking then a mix bag of heights.

NewbridgeIR

A real “nothing to see here” / “boys will be boys” vibe from this social democrat.

https://twitter.com/killianodris/status/1405825916706725888?s=21

lawred2

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Theres probable not 30 cops on duty in the entire Dublin 2. Each arrest requires the cop to return to the station and process the prisoner. If its a serious offence then the person must be detained, questioned, etc so thats those 2 cops of the beat for the rest of the tour.

then theres a plethora of actual other functions they must perform. response to reports, station duties like counter, radio. They need to attend court, cover the Dail, some get sick and others take leave.

Start with 30 on paper, you will probable have less than 15 on outdoor duties starting the shift. That will be further watered down as they take calls and deal with issues they encounter. By the end of the shift you might have 6 Gardai for the entire Dublin 2 area.

This gets dragged up constantly and I repeat myself. Theres only 15000 Gardai for the entire country. Split at present between office and operational duties. They cover protection posts, beats, cars, station duties, court including prosecuting cases. Most people dont realise that Gardai prosecute most cases themselves, that requires Gardai to attend court. They are in offices maintaining statistics and issuing letters and other stuff that people have demanded over the years despite the obvious reduction in operational staff.

Compare Ireland to other EU countries. The police have more duties with less officers.

Spain, circa 200k officers for 50 million population and they dont prosecute their own cases nor perform the non crime duties that Gardai do.

Hungary has a slighlty larger population but yet has more than double the police officers!

London MET has more cops for London than we have for the entire country.

The PSNI is at 6.7k officers to 1.8 million people. Thats not that much more than the republic but they cover an area thats only a quarter the size.

See where Im going with this?

That we need more cops!? I doubt anyone was in the dark about that.

Not sure why you mention London though. London has near twice the population of entire island of Ireland so it's not a stretch to expect a large police force.

But I don't think AGS would be stretched to breaking point by putting 30 lads on the beat. Didn't ask for 3000.

Sure you'd get triple that turning up for policing around the Aviva or Croke Park.

whisky_galore

NewbridgeIR wrote: »

A real “nothing to see here” / “boys will be boys” vibe from this social democrat.

https://twitter.com/killianodris/status/1405825916706725888?s=21

Shur it'll be grand....

joseywhales

I mean the solution is sterilization in return for benefits. We could be generous and let someone receive unemployment for two years before sterilization being a requirement to receive more aid. They don't have to take it, they have a choice.

NewbridgeIR

NewbridgeIR wrote: »

A real “nothing to see here” / “boys will be boys” vibe from this social democrat.

https://twitter.com/killianodris/status/1405825916706725888?s=21

Just had a gander at his posts. Just some UCD law student who's still in the virtuous "know it all" stage of their lives.