Accountancy quotes are really high?

The likes of Fenero can do similar for 150 a month https://www.fenero.ie/pricing/

gudede

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The likes of Fenero can do similar for 150 a month https://www.fenero.ie/pricing/

That’s really cheap!! Bonkers really.

In saying that, it seems that this company isn’t linked to an accountancy body, so they don’t have the same regulatory issues. ALM, insurance for example.

gudede

gudede wrote: »

That’s really cheap!! Bonkers really.

In saying that, it seems that this company isn’t linked to an accountancy body, so they don’t have the same regulatory issues. ALM, insurance for example.

They're excellent. Very well known in the world of contracting. I used them previously as a proprietary director of one of their umbrella companies for 2 years and I can highly recommend them.

They may not do this kind of work though, but it's no harm to ask.

Repo101

FutureGuy wrote: »

Hi all,
LLC in the process is being formed and I’ve been looking at quotes for accountants. It’s an e-commerce store.

It’s just myself so just need the basic accounting done. Two quotes already and both have come in at over €3,000 plus VAT. Includes Form 11, CT1 return, Limited Company Accounts, year end and 36 hours book keeping.

Can anyone help me here. I was advised to look at putting aside 1,000 for the first year.

FutureGuy wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

The person advising is a business consultant working with a number of startups including e-commerce so I must be missing something.

The list of work above is what was quoted to me as what I would need, not what I have asked for specifically. If there are some basic things I can do myself to save money, I will. I just want the bare minimum to get me started.

The July changes to EU vat are definitely worth of scrutiny. I’m hoping to launch in August so the dust will have settled somewhat.

FutureGuy wrote: »

Around 6,000-7,000

It’s free mentoring from The Local Entrerprise Office (the person owns his own consultancy) but the only thing we discussed regarding the accountancy part is the price. Obviously I want to have a competent person doing the books. :-)

I'd be extremely wary of 'business consultant' types. They tend to do more damage and offer bad advice to start-ups all while extracting cash from the business.

It would entirely depend on what you expect to be done. Based on what you have put on here, I would expect that you will be registering for VAT, PAYE and CT. If you're going to be making some sales in Ireland make sure you set up VAT on a cash receipts basis as I've seen good businesses destroyed by cash flow and poor planning.

For €1,000 you would be getting very little service. Also a limited company would be required to submit a set of abridged financial statements annually along with a B1. This can be done by yourself but you need to be aware that the CRO are inspecting annual returns and financial statements more regularly. You will also be obliged to report your exports to Revenue, which could also be done by yourself.

Jeremy Beagle wrote: »

The likes of Fenero can do similar for 150 a month

At that rate, I suspect it's all being subcontracted to India and it's very unlikely that anyone worth their salt is reviewing the work.

Out of interest Future Guy how much did you pay to set up the company?

My advice to you would be to speak to someone who is willing to teach you how to manage it all yourself. IF you put the effort in now you can save yourself a fortune.

Repo101

Repo101 wrote: »

At that rate, I suspect it's all being subcontracted to India and it's very unlikely that anyone worth their salt is reviewing the work.

You'll find it isn't.

Larbre34

3,200 plus da Vat for dat.

Jim2007

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

I would also recommend starting off as a sole trader, it keeps your costs to a minimum. The only reason you need a ltd company is to protect yourself if things go wrong. If you’re adequately insured, what’s the worst that can happen to you financially?

Have you ever experienced a business failure?
- Had creditors knocking on your door day and night
- Being accosted every time you or your wife leave the house by people wanting their money back
- Your kids bullied in school by kids who’s parents lost a job or money over you
- Family and friends shunning you because of your failure or because you lost their money
- The bailiff visiting you and walking away with your property
- Your motor vehicle being repossessed
- Having no credit and being forced to cash only transactions
- Being declared bankrupt
- Having your financial affairs supervised when declared bankrupt
- The publicity of your failure

You won’t know if you have sufficient insurance until you see the size of the award against you and the worst thing that can happen to you is that you could be declared bankrupt and have to go through the humiliating experience of having your personal affairs questioned and supervised.

As a professional accountant (retired) I worked on about 20 liquidations and personal insolvencies and I can’t recall a single case where it was a pleasant experience for the people involved.

Statistically speaking 9 out of 10 new businesses will fail, so recommend an approach that leaves people exposed in a situation where they have say 90% chance of a bad outcome is not advisable.

Jim2007

Repo101 wrote: »

At that rate, I suspect it's all being subcontracted to India and it's very unlikely that anyone worth their salt is reviewing the work.

There seems to be a big gap between your suspicions and reality. Yes there have been few articles recently and talk about it, but it is a long way from being a common practice.

And furthermore Indian Chartered Accountants are every bit as competent as Irish ones and on top of which like most former British colonies they the same type of commercial legal framework as Ireland. They may very well represent a serious thread to accounting practices across the British Isles in the coming years.

My advice to you would be to speak to someone who is willing to teach you how to manage it all yourself. IF you put the effort in now you can save yourself a fortune.

It takes about 6 or 7 years to qualify as an accountant and the failure rates are very high, out of the 23 people who started with me back in the day, only 5 actually made the grade. So having someone teach you a bit on the side is not going to get you there. All it does is produce a false sense of confidence that often turns out to be expensive in the end.

Learning sufficient bookkeeping to be able keep the basic accounting records and perhaps reduced your cost a little is realistic but beyond that no.

It never ceases to amuse me how people can clearly understand that trying to doing surgery after watching Casualty is a bad idea, but read a couple of news paper articles, a DIY book and social media and you’re a financial expert.

Repo101

Jeremy Beagle wrote: »

You'll find it isn't.

How do you know? The pricing makes no sense unless it's being subcontracted.

Repo101

Jim2007 wrote: »

It takes about 6 or 7 years to qualify as an accountant and the failure rates are very high, out of the 23 people who started with me back in the day, only 5 actually made the grade. So having someone teach you a bit on the side is not going to get you there. All it does is produce a false sense of confidence that often turns out to be expensive in the end.

Learning sufficient bookkeeping to be able keep the basic accounting records and perhaps reduced your cost a little is realistic but beyond that no.

It never ceases to amuse me how people can clearly understand that trying to doing surgery after watching Casualty is a bad idea, but read a couple of news paper articles, a DIY book and social media and you’re a financial expert.

It's a bit hysterical to compare doing your own books to performing surgery. I assume you also have experience in subcontracting work to India which can be as low as 20c an hour?

I'd be very wary of people giving you recommendations to use firms charging peanuts and then making comparisons to keeping your own books and records to performing surgery.

Jim2007

Repo101 wrote: »

How do you know? The pricing makes no sense unless it's being subcontracted.

What do you think juniors are for??????

Jim2007

Repo101 wrote: »

It's a bit hysterical to compare doing your own books to performing surgery. I assume you also have experience in subcontracting work to India which can be as low as 20c an hour?

I'd be very wary of people giving you recommendations to use firms charging peanuts and then making comparisons to keeping your own books and records to performing surgery.

And I'm pretty sure you don't have any real experience of when things go wrong.

Repo101

Repo101 wrote: »

How do you know? The pricing makes no sense unless it's being subcontracted.

Because if you read what I posted, I was a customer of theirs for 2 years. I know who was doing my books.

Gloomtastic!

Jim2007 wrote: »

Have you ever experienced a business failure?
- Had creditors knocking on your door day and night
- Being accosted every time you or your wife leave the house by people wanting their money back
- Your kids bullied in school by kids who’s parents lost a job or money over you
- Family and friends shunning you because of your failure or because you lost their money
- The bailiff visiting you and walking away with your property
- Your motor vehicle being repossessed
- Having no credit and being forced to cash only transactions
- Being declared bankrupt
- Having your financial affairs supervised when declared bankrupt
- The publicity of your failure

You won’t know if you have sufficient insurance until you see the size of the award against you and the worst thing that can happen to you is that you could be declared bankrupt and have to go through the humiliating experience of having your personal affairs questioned and supervised.

As a professional accountant (retired) I worked on about 20 liquidations and personal insolvencies and I can’t recall a single case where it was a pleasant experience for the people involved.

Statistically speaking 9 out of 10 new businesses will fail, so recommend an approach that leaves people exposed in a situation where they have say 90% chance of a bad outcome is not advisable.

Thanks for that. I've been both a creditor and a debtor and have experienced most of the above - mainly by me as a creditor, thank goodness. Whether they were a sole trader or a limited company made no difference to me, I just wanted the money that was owed to me and getting to the top of the 'must pay' list was my no. 1 priority. :rolleyes:

The OP is a start up. They are coming to the realisation that what they budgeted for and what things really cost, are like chalk and cheese. He needs to keep his costs to a minimum and starting off as a sole trader helps achieve that. I don't know what they're selling - a product or a service. Their insurance premium, whether it's public or product liability, will probably be based on their turnover. That is zero at the moment but at least they will be covered.

ebbsy

gudede wrote: »

€1,000 would not do that work. A cowboy would do it but been an e-store, you will have various queries around the new VAT rules which start on 1st July so wouldn’t recommend it.

An electrician would charge €150 per hour minimum, but someone advised you that an accountant would do over 40 hours work for €1,000.

I’m happy to give you a quote. I’m Cork based.

Cowboy indeed. Never a truer word spoken.

I have been in practice for 23 years, and I agree with the above, €1,000 is an absolute nonsense price.

- There may well be more than 36 hours work
- The work will have to be checked (Before Vat returns etc)
- The person charging €1,000 will end up just dropping it when he finds out
what is really involved.

Pie in the sky.

Anyway good luck to the OP.

Repo101

Jeremy Beagle wrote: »

Because if you read what I posted, I was a customer of theirs for 2 years. I know who was doing my books.

I did read but unless you were in their office you have no idea who was doing what.

Jim2007 wrote: »

What do you think juniors are for??????

Juniors charge out rates would be at least €45 in Dublin. So you are getting a junior doing work with nobody reviewing? How many hours work from Irish staff are you getting? You do realise that €150 a month would be about 3 hours work for a junior with no profit?

Jim2007 wrote: »

And I'm pretty sure you don't have any real experience of when things go wrong.

That's just another assumption and an incorrect one.

Seve OB

Repo101 wrote: »

Juniors charge out rates would be at least €45 in Dublin. So you are getting a junior doing work with nobody reviewing? How many hours work from Irish staff are you getting? You do realise that €150 a month would be about 3 hours work for a junior with no profit?

Charge out rate does not equal the juniors salary!

Repo101

Seve OB wrote: »

Charge out rate does not equal the juniors salary!

Nobody suggested it did! Some really poor takes in here and some really bad attempts at a strawman argument.

Let me ask the question again as there seems to be a real struggle understanding some basic concepts; the average juniors charge out rate is €45 which is a cost allocated to the job. €150 p/m would give you about 3 hours work unless you're making the ridiculous assumption that they are a charity and are willing to run jobs at a loss. How are you getting bookkeeping, payroll, VAT returns etc. etc. for €150 if it is not being subcontracted to Asia?

It is very clear there are a couple of cowboys in here with no idea on how accountancy firms are run, offering accountancy advice to entrepreneurs!

If you want a terrible job then pay €150 a month. Nobody worth their salt would do that work, for that price.

gudede

A payroll provider would charge €150 a month, just to process the monthly payroll. Never mind the other stuff.

I hope the Government regulates the term accountant. It’s a joke that anyone can call themselves an accountant.

I started a new client last week and the previous accountant allowed the company to have a loan with itself. How is that possible??? €300k tax issue now.

Peanuts/monkeys!!

Can you explain how the company had a loan with itself?

gudede

whatnow! wrote: »

Can you explain how the company had a loan with itself?

Had a branch, maintained two different datasets and done an internal cost+ margin recharge for CT purposes.

Bit of a mess.

Jim2007

Repo101 wrote: »

Juniors charge out rates would be at least €45 in Dublin. So you are getting a junior doing work with nobody reviewing? How many hours work from Irish staff are you getting? You do realise that €150 a month would be about 3 hours work for a junior with no profit?

At what point do you think you might stop digging?

ebbsy

The problem will be as well when the client gets the letter with the Harp on it.

That would be another cost.

Repo101

Jim2007 wrote: »

At what point do you think you might stop digging?

It's very clear this topic is well beyond the scope of your knowledge.

Seve OB

Repo101 wrote: »

Nobody suggested it did!

Well you did.

Now I’m only talking about this particular point. Nothing about the value of the work or would it cover the requirement.

You said €150 gets you about 3 hours work from a junior who’s charge out rate is €45 per hour.

You do realise that a charge out rate includes profit?

Third overheads
Third labour
Third profit

Gloomtastic!

OK. Mod hat on I'm afraid. Can we leave discussions of what constitutes a good rate to charge for accountancy services to some other thread please. The OP is not interested. They are just trying to start a business.

The Gloomster!

Ah the internet:)