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The BBC again: ‘No whites need apply’

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    #152
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    80% >>>>>>>>>> 20%

    Simple maths.

    The whole reason to do this is to more closely represent their society, so no, 20% non white does not "leave whites way under represented"

    Well yes, i got that. The question at hand is whether racial discrimination is the right way to achieve it.


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    #153
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    If they are making a target of have 20% of their staff non white....

    Who exactly do you think fill the other 80%
    1 they are not restricting non-whites as you implied.
    2 20% of UK population is non-white so they re trying to be proportional.

    Are you not ok with the proportion? What proportion would be ok with you?


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    #154
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,989 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Lol yeah funny way of looking at it. I suppose they mean a minimum of 20% non white, not maximum. Either way it would leave whites way under represented.

    Explain ?...


    With diagrams....


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    #155
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,648 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Well yes, i got that. The question at hand is whether racial discrimination is the right way to achieve it.

    So the question is... Should the BBC have a staff make up that more correctly represents society.

    If the answer is yes, then how do they go about it, considering the current staff make up is completely unrepresentative of society.


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    #156
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    So the question is... Should the BBC have a staff make up that more correctly represents society.

    If the answer is yes, then how do they go about it, considering the current staff make up is completely unrepresentative of society.

    You are happy with racial discrimination being the route to that perfect pizza pie of representation and thats a point of view. I don't agree. If my son is denied an opportunity because of the amount of melanin in his skin, that's an issue. The same goes for anyone else's son. How far do we go with this pizza pie? "Correct" amount of gay people, blind people, bilingual people, Korean people, Christian people? Ever decreasing circles...


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    #157
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    dubrov wrote: »
    Any links?

    I can believe social mobility increased for Asian kids but it wouldn't make sense across the board

    https://direct.mit.edu/rest/article/94/3/712/58001/The-Effects-of-Affirmative-Action-Bans-on-College

    There's also this one from UC, which found that the ban on affirmative action increased the signaling value of attending the school among minorities.

    https://academic.oup.com/aler/article-abstract/15/1/252/108515?redirectedFrom=fulltext

    I have seen some papers (which I cannot currently find) that sugges that banning AA leads to minority students enrolling more in less selective schools, which ultimately causes a decrease in those people's wages by a few per cent when they're a decade out of the institution, but I've also seen other papers suggesting that minorities that are recruited to "elite" and selective schools on the basis of AA (as opposed to those minority students that are there on pure merit) are much more likely to drop out than those who attend less selective institutions on merit. Which seems worse than just being down 5% on a high-at-any-rate wage.


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    #158
    dubrov
    Registered Users Posts: 3,581 ✭✭✭dubrov


    suicide_circus wrote:
    You are happy with racial discrimination being the route to that perfect pizza pie of representation and thats a point of view. I don't agree. If my son is denied an opportunity because of the amount of melanin in his skin, that's an issue. The same goes for anyone else's son.

    That's ultimately what it comes down to. Do you agree with discrimination in the short term to achieve a more equitable society long term?


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    #159
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,989 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    You are happy with racial discrimination being the route to that perfect pizza pie of representation and thats a point of view. I don't agree. If my son is denied an opportunity because of the amount of melanin in his skin, that's an issue. The same goes for anyone else's son.

    Do you know anyone white that has been discriminated against for a job ? Anyone at all? Just one


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    #160
    larva
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭larva


    Im sick of government policy that discriminates against a persons outward appearance or sexual preference. I understand the basis for having multiple people of different backgrounds expressing their views o a panel or board but banning a person applying for a job based on the colour of their skin is bending the knee too far.


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    #161
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    listermint wrote: »
    Do you know anyone white that has been discriminated against for a job ? Anyone at all? Just one

    Anyone who applies for the job which is the subject of this thread


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    #162
    Tilden Katz
    Registered Users Posts: 379 ✭✭Tilden Katz


    km991148 wrote: »
    So moving on from positive discrimination, I'm looking for alternatives.

    Why not suggest some yourself?


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    #163
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,648 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    You are happy with racial discrimination being the route to that perfect pizza pie of representation and thats a point of view. I don't agree. If my son is denied an opportunity because of the amount of melanin in his skin, that's an issue. The same goes for anyone else's son.

    Obviously to date opportunities for people with a high level of melanin in their skin have been extremely limited. That's evident and quantifiable. So imagine how black fathers have been feeling for decades that their sons opportunities have been restricted due to the colour of their skin. If you get a little put out by the BBCs attempts to right that wrong, well eggs and omelettes come to mind.


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    #164
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    dubrov wrote: »
    That's ultimately what it comes down to. Do you agree with discrimination in the short term to achieve a more equitable society long term?

    It is no way certain that a more equitable society will be achieved via discrimination.


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    #165
    Girly Gal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭Girly Gal


    Jobs should be got on merit, best person for the job should get it, irrespective of gender, race, creed or sexuality.


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    #166
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,989 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Anyone who applies for the job which is the subject of this thread

    Do you know anyone white that has been discriminated against for any job ? At all.

    Also note that there are multi ethnic policies across most large international organisations.

    Again do you know anyone at all , just one ..


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    #167
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,989 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Girly Gal wrote: »
    Jobs should be got on merit, best person for the job should get it, irrespective of gender, race, creed or sexuality.

    Have you consider merit can also include perspective this can also come from gender , race or socio economic background.


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    #168
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Obviously to date opportunities for people with a high level of melanin in their skin have been extremely limited. That's evident and quantifiable. So imagine how black fathers have been feeling for decades that their sons opportunities have been restricted due to the colour of their skin. If you get a little put out by the BBCs attempts to right that wrong, well eggs and omelettes come to mind.
    The end justifies the means


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    #169
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    listermint wrote: »
    Do you know anyone white that has been discriminated against for any job ? At all.

    Also note that there are multi ethnic policies across most large international organisations.

    Again do you know anyone at all , just one ..
    I dont want to know such people, thats the point.


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    #170
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,648 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    The end justifies the means

    Hopefully


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    #171
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    listermint wrote: »
    Have you consider merit can also include perspective this can also come from gender , race or socio economic background.

    Would you consider having a diversity of opinion as important as diversity of melanin content?


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    #172
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,989 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    I dont want to know such people, thats the point.

    So no you don't actually no anyone white that has ever been discriminated against for a job despite multi ethnic policies existing in majority of large MNCs

    Grand.

    So would you say your feeding irrational fear then ? And if not then why not because you have no evidence of these polices impacting white peoples participation in the workplace.


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    #173
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,492 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    dubrov wrote: »
    It's about balancing company efficiency with social equity.

    If it was all about efficient companies, you can forget about employee rights in general

    ...talent should rise to the top each time...regardless of ethnicity, gender, sexuality.

    Hiring is a competitive process... where employers should choose new hires based on experience, qualifications, ability and personality...

    Equity ? Sure, equity...
    the quality of being fair and impartial.
    "equity of treatment"

    Be fair, be impartial, ignore race, gender, sexuality and hire based on experience, qualifications, ability and personality...


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    #174
    larva
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭larva


    listermint wrote: »
    Do you know anyone white that has been discriminated against for any job ? At all.

    Also note that there are multi ethnic policies across most large international organisations.

    Again do you know anyone at all , just one ..

    As part of my job, I know of loads of white males that have been looked over based on colour and gender quotas


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    #175
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,989 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Would you consider having a diversity of opinion as important as diversity of melanin content?

    Do you think they are mutually exclusive?


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    #176
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,989 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    larva wrote: »
    As part of my job, I know of loads of white males that have been looked over based on colour and gender quotas

    Have you evidence of this , some links and or court cases to back up your claim. Because it seems like something that would make the courts.


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    #177
    Girly Gal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭Girly Gal


    listermint wrote: »
    Have you consider merit can also include perspective this can also come from gender , race or socio economic background.

    Hence why I said the best person for the job should get it


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    #178
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,989 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Girly Gal wrote: »
    Hence why I said the best person for the job should get it

    And let's say a company is hiring and they want to see more female voices in their organisation because the organisation is heavily skewed male and their customers are equally split.

    Would you think that having a skewer towards a female hire might come with merit as best person for the job then .


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    #179
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    listermint wrote: »
    Do you think they are mutually exclusive?

    No indeed. I dont believe someone's perspective is based on melanin content. I believe people should be considered for a job based on the content of their character and CV, not what colour their skin is.


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    #180
    larva
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭larva


    listermint wrote: »
    Have you evidence of this , some links and or court cases to back up your claim. Because it seems like something that would make the courts.

    Yes i do. Its called government policy to give a particular position to a certain minority if they applied for the job and it helps fill a certain quota to bring parity ie not all white males but a 60/40% "diversity" just to make things appear more equitable.


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    #181
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,989 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    larva wrote: »
    Yes i do. Its called government policy to give a particular position to a certain minority if they applied for the job and it helps fill a certain quota to bring parity ie not all white males but a 60/40% "diversity" just to make things appear more equitable.

    Okay can you provide some links to these cases please.


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