First olympic transgender athlete to compete at Tokyo 2020 **MOD NOTE IN OP**

martingriff

Going by results I have seen not sure a medal is a sure thing. I don't think it should be allowed. Larel gets a medal uproar, Laurel does bad uproar. The decision just seemed arbitrary

SouthWesterly

Mike Murdock wrote: »

They do that and their careers are over. They'll be labelled transphobes and almost certainly lose sponsorships because of it. The mob on Social Media will make sure of it.

If that's the case they need to grow some testerone creating organs and make a stand for whats right.

If they won't then they need to stop moaning and get on with it.

Rothko

Rothko wrote: »

I think that'd be better than them being heartless. Instead it's just down to stupidity or being uneducated.

It’s not that they’re uneducated. It’s that they are very, VERY educated in an awful, damaging, internally inconsistent ideology, and taught to silence heretics and stick their fingers in their ears when obvious contradictions arise.

wpd

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

I would absolutely love to see the other entrants make a stand on this matter and refuse to compete. Default award the gold to this individual to highlight the ridiculousness of the whole thing.

so you think the other entrants victimising here would make a postive statement??
If she has complied with the rules and qualified then I dont think such a display is fair.
The issue is whether the rules should allow to be there competing

AllForIt

As someone of a compeditive nature myself (in 2 individual sports) I can't fathom how that weighlifter can in good conscience feel good about beating others when there isn't a level playing field. Mind you she wouldn't be the only person to have a win at all costs attitude in sport, with all the advangaes it brings them when one is succesful.

meeeeh

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

I would absolutely love to see the other entrants make a stand on this matter and refuse to compete. Default award the gold to this individual to highlight the ridiculousness of the whole thing.

Yes let's make them stand on this while ignore this:

https://sportsmedicine-open.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40798-020-00293-4

As I said it's good that fairness in weight lifting is suddenly so important to some. Spare me the babble about fairness, sportsmanship and conscience.

endacl

wpd wrote: »

so you think the other entrants victimising here would make a postive statement??
If she has complied with the rules and qualified then I dont think such a display is fair.
The issue is whether the rules should allow to be there competing

Apparently, the issue of what is ‘fair’ isn’t a consideration…

meeeeh

endacl wrote: »

Apparently, the issue of what is ‘fair’ isn’t a consideration…

Considering the amount of golden medals won by doping you are a bit late to the party... You are placing disproportionate amount of attention to an athlete who will be nowhere near the medals and ignoring constant cheating through the decades. Hypocrisy at it's best and this thread is full of it.

Tilden Katz

meeeeh wrote: »

Considering the amount of golden medals won by doping you are a bit late to the party... You are placing disproportionate amount of attention to an athlete who will be nowhere near the medals and ignoring constant cheating through the decades. Hypocrisy at it's best and this thread is full of it.

How do you know that?

Are you still persisting with this whataboutery. Doping is a problem so let’s allow other forms of cheating? Not a great take.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Sadly, I don't think it's how little they care about women, I think it's how little they understand that biological men aren't the same as women.

Disagreed. They understand fully. Everyone does, since early childhood when you learned about whether you had a peepee or a weewee.

They're just indoctrinated and practising cognitive dissonance to a point way beyond absurdity.

I don't think they don't care about women in general but they do only care about certain women's issues of concern, dismissing others.

Gentlemanne

Not sure why the same posters who are thread banned from similar topics are allowed to post.

The same posters who say ohhh she's had male puberty so she has an advantage, were arguing against trans youth from getting healthcare.

So what are trans people meant to do? Reminds me of some oldies saying "oh I support gay rights... But.."

It's not about suddenly caring about weightlifting. I don't care about the sport of weightlifting. I do care though about members of my sex working hard to compete in particular tournaments and losing out to someone with different biology that gives them a physical advantage.

ceadaoin.

meeeeh wrote: »

Considering the amount of golden medals won by doping you are a bit late to the party... You are placing disproportionate amount of attention to an athlete who will be nowhere near the medals and ignoring constant cheating through the decades. Hypocrisy at it's best and this thread is full of it.

Why don't you start a thread about doping in sports rather than dragging this one off topic? This one is about laurel Hubbard, so obviously a "disproportionate amount" of posts will be about her lol. I mean, its literally in the title.

One thing I will say is history has shown the lengths some athletes will go to in order to cheat and win. They definitely wouldn't take advantage of these rules though.

Gentlemanne

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Not sure why the same posters who are thread banned from similar topics are allowed to post.

The same posters who say ohhh she's had male puberty so she has an advantage, were arguing against trans youth from getting healthcare.

So what are trans people meant to do? Reminds me of some oldies saying "oh I support gay rights... But.."

You can misrepresent it as condemnation of someone merely for being trans all you like - and you folks will because you don't have much else, but this is about an unfair situation for competitors. It does not mean the same thing as "I hate trans people".

And I don't understand why you're making out that it's hypocrisy to be against administering puberty blockers and against unfairness in women's sports. They're two different situations.

There isn't a situation where gay people were given the opportunity to have an unfair advantage.

Bizarre take from someone - saying that there's a bunch of hypocrites on this thread for objecting to this but ignoring doping in sports... even though there is zero evidence of the same members ignoring doping in sports, just the fact that it's not being discussed on a thread which isn't about doping in sports.

Schrodinger's thread.

Reminds me of:

https://youtu.be/xSVqLHghLpw

meeeeh

Tilden Katz wrote: »

How do you know that?

Are you still persisting with this whataboutery. Doping is a problem so let’s allow other forms of cheating? Not a great take.

There is a very simple thing you don't understand. Lauren Hubbard is not cheating. She is not breaking any rules unless she is doping like so many other weight lifters. So if you about cheating there is nothing to worry about in this regard.

It's not whataboutery it's about logic. Playing inside the rules = not cheating, playing outside the rules = cheating. I really don't know how much simpler I could make it but I'm pretty sure that my dog would understand it by now.

meeeeh

Lurleen wrote: »

Bizarre take from someone - saying that there's a bunch of hypocrites on this thread for objecting to this but ignoring doping in sports... even though there is zero evidence of the same members ignoring doping in sports, just the fact that it's not being discussed on a thread which isn't about doping in sports.

Schrodinger's thread.

Reminds me of:

https://youtu.be/xSVqLHghLpw

I thought the whole thread was about cheating dear not about the usual culture wars. But it's culture wars...

Yeah I do agree the criticism should be levelled at those who allowed it but also to some degree at Laurel, because she willingly participated. I absolutely do not think she should be abused for being trans.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

I thought the whole thread was about cheating dear not about the usual culture wars. But it's culture wars...

What's the "dear" about? It seems to be the same all the time from a number of posters - getting sneery when someone disagrees. Why not just disagree back without getting snide!

meeeeh

Lurleen wrote: »

Yeah I do agree the criticism should be levelled at those who allowed it but also to some degree at Laurel, because she willingly participated. I absolutely do not think she should be abused for being trans.

Why should she be criticised? Because she competes in sport she likes in category she is entitled to? She is singled out as the only morally reprehensible competitor while the sport could be actually dropped from next Olympics because there is so much doping in it? I mean, come on...

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

Why should she be criticised?

For, as I said, knowingly entering with a physical advantage.

BattleCorp

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Not sure why the same posters who are thread banned from similar topics are allowed to post.

The same posters who say ohhh she's had male puberty so she has an advantage, were arguing against trans youth from getting healthcare.

So what are trans people meant to do? Reminds me of some oldies saying "oh I support gay rights... But.."

I think there should be a separate category for trans athletes.

We often see transwomen doing quite well in sport but it's very rare to see a transman doing well in sport. There's a huge physical sporting advantage to being born a biological male, going through puberty and then identifying/transitioning to become a transwoman.

meeeeh

Lurleen wrote: »

For, as I said, knowingly entering with a physical advantage.

All top athletes have physical advantage.

nullzero

meeeeh wrote: »

All top athletes have physical advantage.

A top male athlete will out perform a top female athlete every time.

This isn't a transphobia issue in fact it's probably more of a feminist issue in a way.

Mad_maxx

FTA69 wrote: »

The sad thing is that transgenderism is a real thing and has existed since time immemorial. People with gender dysmorphia aren't chancers or sickos etc, it’s the way they are and like any group of people they want to get on in life for the most part. I’m perfectly happy accepting that, referring to people how they want to be called and all that. No problem. I imaging transitioning is a very difficult thing to do that the vast majority of people do not do lightly.


There is however, a big jump from the above to, “transwomen are women and there’s no debate”. It raises the question what exactly is a woman? Is it just something you can identify as handily enough? By that logic can someone like Rachel Dolezal identify as black? Arguably race is far more of a social construct than something like gender is. I don’t see the difference to be honest. Not identifying with gender is an acceptable thing; something also done by camp men and butch lesbians to a large extent. There’s a big difference between that and denying immutable biological reality.

To say that being a woman is only something you can identify into or out of with a pronoun is absurdism in the extreme to be honest.

I think most people accept that a tiny tiny percentage of people are deeply unhappy with how they were born and decide to have a sex change ,that is not new, what is new however is the idea that so many are conflicted about the bits they were born with , that we need three kind of bathrooms in public buildings and institutions ?

humans dont change that much that quick that so many are unsure of their sex that classes need to be taught about it in schools

volchitsa

meeeeh wrote: »

All top athletes have physical advantage.

So why bother with weight categories at all then? By that logic they’re not needed.

nullzero

nullzero wrote: »

A top male athlete will out perform a top female athlete every time.

This isn't a transphobia issue in fact it's probably more of a feminist issue in a way.

It's one hundred per cent a feminist issue.

astrofool

nullzero wrote: »

A top male athlete will out perform a top female athlete every time.

This isn't a transphobia issue in fact it's probably more of a feminist issue in a way.

A non-elite male athlete will also out perform an elite female athlete.

ceadaoin.

meeeeh wrote: »

All top athletes have physical advantage.

Hubbard didn't seem to have a physical advantage when competing against men. At least not enough of one to make the Olympics and break records. Wonder why suddenly this advantage has become so apparent at quite an advanced age for a professional athlete? Just luck I guess

Gentlemanne

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Not sure why the same posters who are thread banned from similar topics are allowed to post.

Heaven forfend people be permitted to post things that an extreme and extremist minority don’t like to read.