First olympic transgender athlete to compete at Tokyo 2020 **MOD NOTE IN OP**

groovyg

Women have had to fight for a long time for inclusiveness in sports and sports competitions. Weightlifting for women only became an Olympic competition in 2000 and now they have this situation of trans athletes taking part and it will affect women's sports a lot more than men.

There have been two reviews published this year in sports medicine journals.
One first-authored by a trans woman—Joanna Harper
How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin? Systematic review with a focus on the implications for sport participation
and one of the conclusions is that

In transwomen, hormone therapy rapidly reduces Hgb to levels seen in cisgender women. In contrast, hormone therapy decreases strength, LBM and muscle area, yet values remain above that observed
in cisgender women, even after 36 months. These findings suggest that strength may be well preserved in transwomen during the first 3 years of hormone therapy.

The Second
Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage and one of the conclusions is that muscular advantage of transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed.

World Rugby also undertook a study on transgender athletes and transgender women are not allowed play because of the size, force- and power-producing advantages conferred by testosterone during puberty and adolescence, and the resultant player welfare risks this creates
https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/guidelines/transgender

Ross Tucker a sports physiologist - did a really informative podcast on transgender athletes in women's sport.

Separate categories give males and females equal opportunities of sporting success. By including trans athletes its going to cause exclusion especially for women's sports.

meeeeh

I don't remember such an outrage when doped up athletes are beating clean athletes easily.

Anyway it's hardly floodgates, it's one woman in a relatively niche sport. The rules will evolve and might be different from sport to sport.

Tilden Katz

Christy42 wrote: »

I mean maybe we don't need to entirely revisit how we look at sports over a few people? We have had transgender athletes for a while and yet there is a total of 1?!? athletes at the biggest sporting comp going.

That's because there was a rule change in 2015 that was too soon to be implemented at the 2016 Olympics. People like to say that transgender athletes have been allowed since 2004. That's true BUT the rules were slackened significantly in 2015. We have not yet had a chance to see what effects they may have. But the IOC has even said that they think the new rules implemented in 2015 might be too lenient. We don't yet know if Hubbard will be the only transgender athlete at the Olympics either. But for me personally, one is too many.

BluePlanet

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Then women, the old fashioned xx kind, will barely win anything and will risk becoming severely injured in many sports in the process. Unless that's what you want of course?

Why should the solution to this be to do away with hard won fairness for women?

Not true at all.

What it will do, is see the creation of sports and strategies within sports, where the physical qualities of women are an advantage.
Women are generally shorter than men, with a lower center of gravity, so we should see the rise of sports or strategies where that lower gravity and shorter height is an advantage, for example.

You are aware of how the issue has arisen?
It comes because sports were the exclusive purview of men, and women were excluded.

Fast forward and today, you have women taking legal action for the right to compete in 'mens' sports'. For example in wrestling (the olympic sport not the TV shows) girls in US high schools have fought for a long time for the right to compete.
The last decade some schools are allowing it, and the girls are usually competitive.
Here's one that won the state championship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLHcx9PfYjU

It's only a matter of time before these girls demand to be let in the Olympics.

Tilden Katz

Deleted User wrote: »

Martina Navratalova's tennis coach, Renée Richards, is a transwoman who played tennis professionally in women's competitions in the 70s. In her mid-to-late forties, while she played professionally alongside young women in their twenties in peak physical condition, her highest rank was 20th.

t.ly/pZuj

Renée Richards is opposed to transgender women competing with women.

And I think ranking 20th in her late 40s against much younger women at the peak of their powers still demonstrates the benefits of a male puberty. Considering there would be 100s of elite female tennis players.

Tilden Katz

Tilden Katz wrote: »

Renée Richards is opposed to transgender women competing with women.

And I think ranking 20th in her late 40s against much younger women at the peak of their powers still demonstrates the benefits of a male puberty. Considering there would be 100s of elite female tennis players.

Yep. That was my point.

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

The last decade some schools are allowing it, and the girls are usually competitive.
Here's one that won the state championship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLHcx9PfYjU

It's possible that on a school-by-school level, where there are usually very few people wrestling anyway, the girls may be similarly skilled and strong as the boys. It's also possible that, occasionally, a girl will win a mixed championship. But you cannot honestly think that doing away with sex categories will result in anywhere near an even split of wrestling champions from each sex.

Most "men's" sports are not sex-exclusive. Women just seldom qualify to complete in them.

yerwanthere123

Can you support transgender rights but not support this? Cause that's pretty much where I am.

KeepItLight

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't remember such an outrage when doped up athletes are beating clean athletes easily.

Anyway it's hardly floodgates, it's one woman in a relatively niche sport. The rules will evolve and might be different from sport to sport.

What are you talking about? Doped-up athletes were a major global news story for weeks, and there were Oscar-nominated documentaries made about the topic that everyone saw and talked about.

Tilden Katz

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't remember such an outrage when doped up athletes are beating clean athletes easily.

Anyway it's hardly floodgates, it's one woman in a relatively niche sport. The rules will evolve and might be different from sport to sport.

What? You're joking, right? I have in the past witnessed athletes under suspicion of doping being booed by Olympics spectators. And pretty much everyone took a dim view of Russian's recent state doping programme. The Russian athletes who got to the Olympics via various loopholes were not well-received.

And I hate the attitude that because it's just one sport, that it's not important. Is the woman who missed out here unimportant? Just mere collateral? That's something I touched on earlier. Sport is apparently very important when it comes to inclusion of transgender athletes. But when a woman is excluded, suddenly the attitude is "Ah, who cares? It's just sport". So is sport important or isn't it? People can't have it both ways.

BluePlanet

Deleted User wrote: »

But you cannot honestly think that doing away with sex categories will result in anywhere near an even split of wrestling champions from each sex.
.

I said nothing of the sort.
What i said, was by having a mixed sex sport, should allow the development of sports and strategies whereby the physical characteristics of women becomes an advantage.

yerwanthere123

yerwanthere123 wrote: »

Can you support transgender rights but not support this? Cause that's pretty much where I am.

Yes. You can.

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

I said nothing of the sort.

So you're just for throwing out sex categorties and hoping that these new sports that mostly women excel at will just happen along at some point?

Or something else?

Airyfairy12

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't remember such an outrage when doped up athletes are beating clean athletes easily.

Anyway it's hardly floodgates, it's one woman in a relatively niche sport.

I think youre missing the point. Its hardly a relatively niche sport if its considered to be an Olympic sport. Every contestant involved worked hard for their place and all those biological women stand a much slimmer chance of achieving their goal because a trans woman is taking part. A biological woman lost her place to make room for a trans women.
When it comes to trans women & biological womens rights, trans women trump biological women every time it seems.
I can accept a trans woman as a woman, I can call anyone by any term they wish to be called by. I wont disregard facts for the sake of the trans community feelings of insecurities.
A trans woman was once a male, regardless of how they felt about themselves at the time, their body was male! There is no undoing the differences in male and female bodies, no matter how much a trans person wants this to be the case.
Biological women, who worked extremely hard to get to the place theyre at have now had a massive barrier put in their way. Theyre expected to compete against someone who has the body, bone density, muscle mass and build of a man. Theyre now collectively at a disadvantage, the bar has been moved and they have work 10 times harder to win as the trans woman does. An uneven playing field has been created where the women are solely at a disadvantage.
This is totally unfair and to make it worse, any woman that stands up against it is labelled as a TERF. A sexist term freely used against women when they try to protect their rights, by the trans community.

Words, terms and phrases associated with biological women/female anatomy are slowly dissipating from health and educational resources as they offend trans women.
Safe public women's spaces like changing rooms & toilets where women and girls are vulnerable are being opened up to trans women with no surgery.
Now, trans women who retain the strength, body mass, bone & muscle density of their male bodies are permitted to compete against women in female only sports teams.
This is an escalating issue that is already leaving women at a massive disadvantage. Why arent womens right being considered at all in any of this?

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't remember such an outrage when doped up athletes are beating clean athletes easily.

Were you born?

At least you acknowledge that the advantage is comparable.

Yeah_Right

I support transgender rights. If you want to transition to the other gender and I'll use the term you ask me to use. As long as it's not some stupid made up word.

As a guy who was an elite level athlete many years ago, I think this is unfair. If I had transitioned to being a woman, I'd probably be an Olympic champion. As it is, I was simply very good at the sports I competed in.

As a kiwi, I think this is great. As long as she wins the gold. Anything to push us up the medal table. Go girl!!

BluePlanet

Deleted User wrote: »

So you're just for throwing out sex categorties and hoping that these new sports that mostly women excel at will just happen along at some point?

Or something else?

Yes, organically just as it should develop.

But there are other benefits, it should drive equality of pay, and equality for women generally in other jurisdictions like the ME.

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

Yes, organically just as it should develop.

But there are other benefits, it should drive equality of pay, and equality for women generally in other jurisdictions like the ME.

How would women being crowded out of sport almost entirely drive equal pay and equality?

BluePlanet

Deleted User wrote: »

How would women being crowded out of sport almost entirely drive equal pay and equality?

I see no reason that women athletes are unable to develop sporting strategies where their physical characteristics are an advantage?

seems like your saying: women are different and can't compete with men. They should be segregated and (paid less)?

BloodBath

BluePlanet wrote: »

Yes, organically just as it should develop.

But there are other benefits, it should drive equality of pay, and equality for women generally in other jurisdictions like the ME.

You do realize that in a lot of sports only the top athletes make a decent living in their field. If it becomes mixed the majority of women wouldn't even get through the qualifying stage never mind be one of the top athletes that actually makes a living off of their sport.

Those female tennis stars like the Williams sisters that do pretty good would be gone in an instant with almost no televised time or sponsorship deals as 1 example.

You're talking out of your arse.

endacl

Yeah_Right wrote: »

As a kiwi, I think this is great. As long as she wins the gold. Anything to push us up the medal table. Go girl!!

Worked her bollocks off for the opportunity…

wpd

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I support transgender rights. If you want to transition to the other gender and I'll use the term you ask me to use. As long as it's not some stupid made up word.

As a guy who was an elite level athlete many years ago, I think this is unfair. If I had transitioned to being a woman, I'd probably be an Olympic champion. As it is, I was simply very good at the sports I competed in.

As a kiwi, I think this is great. As long as she wins the gold. Anything to push us up the medal table. Go girl!!

Good opening statement, followed by cohesive argument
then totally contradict yourself!! great post

BluePlanet

With non-segregated sports, we can then set gender quotas if you're actually worried that women can't compete with men.

meeeeh

Tilden Katz wrote: »

What? You're joking, right? I have in the past witnessed athletes under suspicion of doping being booed by Olympics spectators. And pretty much everyone took a dim view of Russian's recent state doping programme. The Russian athletes who got to the Olympics via various loopholes were not well-received.

And I hate the attitude that because it's just one sport, that it's not important. Is the woman who missed out here unimportant? Just mere collateral? That's something I touched on earlier. Sport is apparently very important when it comes to inclusion of transgender athletes. But when a woman is excluded, suddenly the attitude is "Ah, who cares? It's just sport". So is sport important or isn't it? People can't have it both ways.

So how many posts did you write on doping among female weight lifters? As far as I know it's pretty prevalent.

Yes the athletes were booed and yes Lance Armstrong and others were punished. However how often did cheating in weight lifting feature on your radar. And suddenly a whole pile of people are worried about poor weight lifters who will be affected.

I'm sure you feel strongly about the subject but don't pretend you feel sorry about women competing in the sport. You don't care one bit abou the female athletes they are just convenient stick to beat trans women with.

The rules are the rules, if you want them changed then maybe Olympic committee or weight lifting organisations would be a better target.

BloodBath

BluePlanet wrote: »

With non-segregated sports, we can then set gender quotas if you're actually worried that women can't compete with men.

How are gender quotas going to solve the problem? All you're doing then is forcing 50% of men out who are better than the 50% of women who are pushed in which would kill the sports.

Could you imagine football teams for example having to field at least 5 women. The sports popularity would sink like a stone.

There's nothing wrong with the current way it's done. The issue now is allowing trans athletes into women's sports.

Your suggestions would only create even more problems.

Kaybaykwah

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meeeeh wrote: »

I don't remember such an outrage when doped up athletes are beating clean athletes easily.

Anyway it's hardly floodgates, it's one woman in a relatively niche sport. The rules will evolve and might be different from sport to sport.

That's just it. The doping part was putting all competitors at a disadvantage, and yet, a lone competitor would gladly give up on said advantage via performance depleting drugs in order to compete.

Does not compute.

BluePlanet

BloodBath wrote: »

How are gender quotas going to solve the problem? All you're doing then is forcing 50% of men out who are better than the 50% of women who are pushed in which would kill the sports.

Could you imagine football teams for example having to field at least 5 women. The sports popularity would sink like a stone.

There's nothing wrong with the current way it's done. The issue now is allowing trans athletes into women's sports.

Your suggestions would only create even more problems.

Nothing wrong with the status quo huh?
Keep women out of our sports and pay them less -that bout right?

BloodBath

BluePlanet wrote: »

Nothing wrong with the status quo huh?
Keep women out of our sports and pay them less -that bout right?

I really don't understand people like you.

I want to watch the best athletes compete with and against each other. Just like jobs I think the best people should be hired for the job. Not some forced quotas that result in a weaker product.

If women really want equal pay in sports there's a simple solution. Women need to support it as well as men support men's sports.

It's simple capitalist economics that your type don't seem to understand.

Female fashion models get paid on average 150% more than male ones for the same reasons.

Tilden Katz

meeeeh wrote: »

So how many posts did you write on doping among female weight lifters? As far as I know it's pretty prevalent.

Yes the athletes were booed and yes Lance Armstrong and others were punished. However how often did cheating in weight lifting feature on your radar. And suddenly a whole pile of people are worried about poor weight lifters who will be affected.

I'm sure you feel strongly about the subject but don't pretend you feel sorry about women competing in the sport. You don't care one bit abou the female athletes they are just convenient stick to beat trans women with.

The rules are the rules, if you want them changed then maybe Olympic committee or weight lifting organisations would be a better target.

Yes, that is also a problem. I haven't written any posts about it because the subject of this thread is current and making news headlines. This is whataboutery - "Look at this big distraction over here!"

And on the bolded bit - excuse me? I do feel sorry for the women in this and other sports who have been displaced. Are you inside my head? How could you possibly know what my feelings are towards these women? I love that any valid criticism of transgender people is touted as unfair and bigoted as is they are above criticism where no other other group in society is. And the people who accuse people of this bigotry never have any robust rebuttals. If it truly was bigotry, surely you would? So it's just 'sling mud and hope some of it sticks'. That's all you have.

WrenBoy

BluePlanet wrote: »

Nothing wrong with the status quo huh?
Keep women out of our sports and pay them less -that bout right?

Aren't you defending Hubbard ? but you say you don't want women pushed out of the sport ??