UEFA refuse to sanction illuminating Munich Stadium in rainbow colours

jakiah

jakiah wrote: »

They already have measures in place for all of that stuff. Some local politician deciding what they do or dont do is not going to happen.

If they take direction from city mayors in Germany they'll have to take direction from city mayors across the continent. Not going to happen.

The thing is they pretty clearly don't have any desire to uphold the supposed ideals they have. So in fact, the mayor in Germany is upholding such ideals far more than they are cause human rights in member states should entirely matter to them.

Strumms

MrStuffins wrote: »

DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING !!

Wow! I can't believe it took so long for someone to bring BLM into an argument that has absolutely nothing to do with BLM.

Congratulations!

Same thing, they are the of the same mindset.

jakiah

Deleted User wrote: »

The thing is they pretty clearly don't have any desire to uphold the supposed ideals they have. So in fact, the mayor in Germany is upholding such ideals far more than they are cause human rights in member states should entirely matter to them.

So your argument is that they should defer to local politicians to decide what they do on their own matchdays? Would you support this as a general point and make it a free for all on issues across the continent? If the Hungarians or Russians decide to adopt a gesture to 'save our children from LGBT brainwashing' or some such rubbish you'd presumably support that too?

MrStuffins

Strumms wrote: »

Same thing, they are the of the same mindset.

jakiah

jakiah wrote: »

So your argument is that they should defer to local politicians to decide what they do on their own matchdays? Would you support this as a general point and make it a free for all on issues across the continent? If the Hungarians or Russians decide to adopt a gesture to 'save our children from LGBT brainwashing' or some such rubbish you'd presumably support that too?

My argument is that they are actively ignoring breaches. Numerous human rights organizations have called it out. UEFA claim to support human rights of the LGBT community. But they are fine with ignoring violations.

jakiah

Deleted User wrote: »

My argument is that they are actively ignoring breaches. Numerous human rights organizations have called it out. UEFA claim to support human rights of the LGBT community. But they are fine with ignoring violations.

You can argue their failings if you like, they are a pretty appalling organisation on many levels. You didnt address the point I made, would you support local politics being able to insert campaigns you dont support into the matchday as well as the ones you do?

MOH

Deleted User wrote: »

And UEFA have stated more than once that they support human rights so it follows that they should in general call out the states that aren't upholding then.

Yeah, like when they took the world cup off Qatar?

I presume everyone complaining about them not allowing the lights in Munich will also be refusing to watch any of the next world cup to support the 6000+ migrant workers who have died there in the last 10 years? Dozens in building the stadiums for said world cup?

Professional football is an industry. It's certainly not some bastion of human rights. If anything, going ahead with the Munich proposal would be ridiculously hypocritical when you consider that there's supposedly no gay players in the tournament. Or as far as a I'm aware of currently playing in any of the major leagues.

People getting annoyed over that might actually do some good, not throwing a wobbly over some shiny lights.

Christy42

jakiah wrote: »

So your argument is that they should defer to local politicians to decide what they do on their own matchdays? Would you support this as a general point and make it a free for all on issues across the continent? If the Hungarians or Russians decide to adopt a gesture to 'save our children from LGBT brainwashing' or some such rubbish you'd presumably support that too?

Your posts are PC gone mad. UEFA states they are for human and LGBT rights. They are very obviously not for them here.

If an organisation or person states they support human rights this does not mean they need to support everything because someone lies and says they are human rights.

I have dealt with many systems that deal with requests. Allowing a reasonable one has never meant unreasonable ones need be allowed.


Side point, they can't adopt a gesture because that would simply highlight the issue of LGBT rights to kids watching at home and dominate all media broadcasts. It would be rather self defeating if they tried it.

Christy42

MOH wrote: »

Yeah, like when they took the world cup off Qatar?

I presume everyone complaining about them not allowing the lights in Munich will also be refusing to watch any of the next world cup to support the 6000+ migrant workers who have died there in the last 10 years? Dozens in building the stadiums for said world cup?

Professional football is an industry. It's certainly not some bastion of human rights. If anything, going ahead with the Munich proposal would be ridiculously hypocritical when you consider that there's supposedly no gay players in the tournament. Or as far as a I'm aware of currently playing in any of the major leagues.

People getting annoyed over that might actually do some good, not throwing a wobbly over some shiny lights.

Pretty sure Hungary threw the wobbly over the lights. UEFA is corrupt but I am pretty sure that you are blaming them for what FIFA did.

Also different things between supposedly and there being no gay players. I would put money on there being gay players but many don't want to be bullied and you damn well know it would happen.

lawrencesummers

Suppose they can’t be seen to be all Gay friendly one one hand and cosy cosy with middle eastern cash rich royals who treat homosexuals so cruelly on the other.

Their next Hosts have homosexuality punishable with Jail time or Death, so it would be pretty hypocritical to allow symbols of pride be displayed. You could almost admire their consistency if it wasn’t so Misguided.

jakiah

Christy42 wrote: »

Your posts are PC gone mad. UEFA states they are for human and LGBT rights. They are very obviously not for them here.

If an organisation or person states they support human rights this does not mean they need to support everything because someone lies and says they are human rights.

I have dealt with many systems that deal with requests. Allowing a reasonable one has never meant unreasonable ones need be allowed.


Side point, they can't adopt a gesture because that would simply highlight the issue of LGBT rights to kids watching at home and dominate all media broadcasts. It would be rather self defeating if they tried it.

Theres a direct question in the quote, why dont you answer it?

The are 55 member nations in UEFA with some serious differences in poltics, from Ireland to Kovoso, Albania, Belarus, Israel, Russia, Turkey. Are these all to be allowed to insert whatever causes they wish to support into the matchday?

padd b1975

MOH wrote: »

Yeah, like when they took the world cup off Qatar?

I presume everyone complaining about them not allowing the lights in Munich will also be refusing to watch any of the next world cup to support the 6000+ migrant workers who have died there in the last 10 years? Dozens in building the stadiums for said world cup?

Professional football is an industry. It's certainly not some bastion of human rights. If anything, going ahead with the Munich proposal would be ridiculously hypocritical when you consider that there's supposedly no gay players in the tournament. Or as far as a I'm aware of currently playing in any of the major leagues.

People getting annoyed over that might actually do some good, not throwing a wobbly over some shiny lights.

The World Cup is FIFA's baby.

kowloonkev

jakiah wrote: »

So your argument is that they should defer to local politicians to decide what they do on their own matchdays? Would you support this as a general point and make it a free for all on issues across the continent? If the Hungarians or Russians decide to adopt a gesture to 'save our children from LGBT brainwashing' or some such rubbish you'd presumably support that too?

Look, sport should unite rather than divide. You are not going to get anywhere by trying to shame entire countries into agreeing with your ideals. You'll probably make it worse for the people you are trying to help in those places. Countries/cultures move slowly and they move at their own pace. Confronting them and alienating them is just going to make the process longer than if a more diplomatic approach is taken. But some people would rather have a petty little victory now on social media even if it means a more difficult life for gay people actually living in Budapest.

MOH

MOH wrote: »

Yeah, like when they took the world cup off Qatar?

I presume everyone complaining about them not allowing the lights in Munich will also be refusing to watch any of the next world cup to support the 6000+ migrant workers who have died there in the last 10 years? Dozens in building the stadiums for said world cup?

Professional football is an industry. It's certainly not some bastion of human rights. If anything, going ahead with the Munich proposal would be ridiculously hypocritical when you consider that there's supposedly no gay players in the tournament. Or as far as a I'm aware of currently playing in any of the major leagues.

People getting annoyed over that might actually do some good, not throwing a wobbly over some shiny lights.

I absolutely think the hosting of the world cup in Qatar is a disgrace and imagine many posters do. A lack of principles in sporting orgs is an issue, be it the IOC or UEFA or Fifa so I would say calling it out even if UEFA ignore it is better than doing nothing. Eg the mayor in this case has drawn plenty of attention to a serious issue.

Christy42

jakiah wrote: »

Theres a direct question in the quote, why dont you answer it?

The are 55 member nations in UEFA with some serious differences in poltics, from Ireland to Kovoso, Albania, Belarus, Israel, Russia, Turkey. Are these all to be allowed to insert whatever causes they wish to support into the matchday?

I did.

No one gets to insert whatever causes they want into a match day. There is a reason it was a request. If a request by anyone including those countries lines up with Uefa values it should be granted.

Also directed at someone else but talking about sports should unite everyone and therefore we should unite behind Hungary's desire to cause division is hilarious.

conorhal

MrStuffins wrote: »

And, just like breathing, being gay is natural and the ideas should not be oppressed.

But teaching children that gender is a broad spectrum and mental illness is a sexuality isn't.
There was a time I used to laugh at the conservative Christian cohort and their handwringing about 'the slippery slope', but here we are.
I've no sympathy with the Hungarian's position, it's extreme, but so is some of the stuff being taught that is being demanded by special interest groups and that's worrying. I can understand why they want it off the curriculum.

Fandymo

MrStuffins wrote: »

Agreed. Sex education should be given at home. In fact, it should be given in wider society in general. And not just education on the physical act of sex itself, but education on different types of sexual orientation.

This can be done be celebrating the previously (and in a lot of cases, currently) oppressed sexual orientations in public. Like lighting up a soccer stadium with the Pride flag.

Why does whoever people are riding (straight or gay) have to be celebrated? It’s should be a private matter between the consenting adults.

jakiah

Christy42 wrote: »

I did.

No one gets to insert whatever causes they want into a match day. There is a reason it was a request. If a request by anyone including those countries lines up with Uefa values it should be granted.

So whats to be the criteria for accepting a request? If israeli nationalists want to celebrate Israels 'right' to exist and 'right' for its citizens to live peacefully behind a big wall on matchdays, should that be allowed? The Russians say their children should have a 'right' not to be 'brainwashed' by decadent immoral western values on LGBT, should they be allowed to stick in a gesture highlighting it?

d15ude

kowloonkev wrote: »

Well it's basically the hijacking of an event, the build up to the event, and media output of an event by a radical movement.

"by a radical movement"?
The mayor and the city of Munich are radicals?
He belongs to the SPD. A very old and very established party in Germany.

Fandymo

Christy42 wrote: »

It should be pointed out that the entire nothing happens to marriage style of sex education has been shown to be utterly pointless and ineffective (largely just leading to higher rates of teen pregnancy because teenagers weren't taught properly).

Not teaching things doesn't stop it happening and I have no idea why you would cite a failed policy as to why this is a good thing. Your example of the nun's style of teaching shows exactly why the Hungarian law is pointless at anything but harming LGBT teenagers.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22022362/

I never cited it as a good thing. I was stating a fact as it was in my day. It didn’t do me any harm, as my parents spoke with me about the birds and the bees. Better them, who I trusted enough to ask questions, than a nun or a random teacher in front of 20 or so of your equally awkward, but acting cool, mates. Maybe I should sue the department of education for not teaching me about homosexuality, heterosexuality, pansexuality, asexuality, sapiophelia, etc?? Seems to be the way these days. Wonder if any of my old teachers need to be cancelled.

d15ude

Fandymo wrote: »

Why does whoever people are riding (straight or gay) have to be celebrated? It’s should be a private matter between the consenting adults.

It doesn't have to be celebrated.

But it should also not be a reason for discrimination.
Unfortunately the government of Hungary isn't quite as liberal as you are.

Christy42

jakiah wrote: »

So whats to be the criteria for accepting a request? If israeli nationalists want to celebrate Israels 'right' to exist and 'right' for its citizens to live peacefully behind a big wall on matchdays, should that be allowed? The Russians say their children should have a 'right' not to be 'brainwashed' by decadent immoral western values on LGBT, should they be allowed to stick in a gesture highlighting it?

Given that Uefa supports Lgbt values that one would pretty much be very obviously against Uefa values. Generally a case by case basis though support for an lgbt issue when Uefa says it supports lgbt issues is fairly clearly within the grounds of Uefa values.

Amnesty support human rights. Just because someone claims hitting people with clubs is a human right does not mean Amnesty need to support it. I don't care what Russia says is a human right. If it isn't they can be ignored.

Fandymo

MrStuffins wrote: »

It's also important to point out that soccer is a notoriously hostile place for gay men. Being gay is simply not accepted within the game. It's no coincidence that there are currently ZERO openly gay professional footballers anywhere in Europe.

Premier League teams, for example, will have 50+ professionals on their books between the first team, underage teams etc. That's 1000+ men in that league across the 20 teams.

There are 3 more professional leagues in England with 72 more teams.

Then consider the teams elsewhere across Europe. Spain, Italy, France, Germany, Portugal............ every European country. How many professional footballers do you think there are.

And NONE of them have come out as gay? Why do you think that is.

Promoting diversity in football is important, not only for wider society but for those involved in the game itself.

The most nonsense in one post I’ve ever read.

Why should any footballer come out as gay? Would a bisexual do? Why should it matter who a footballer is sleeping with? How many postmen have come out as gay? How many of your local newsagents have announced they are gay to the world? I must pop into my local estate agents to see if they’ve any gays on the payroll. Why only footballers? How many gay professional cyclists are there?

jakiah

Christy42 wrote: »

Amnesty support human rights. Just because someone claims hitting people with clubs is a human right does not mean Amnesty need to support it. I don't care what Russia says is a human right. If it isn't they can be ignored.

They'll need to ignore Turkey, Hungary, Poland, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Kosovo, Serbia. Romania, Bulgaria and Moldova too while they are at it.

https://www.ilga-europe.org/rainboweurope/2020

Its absurd to say pushing this rights issue universally across the 55 members would be non-political.

Strumms

People going to a football match, ‘seeing’ an LGTB flag, will not automatically decide that LGTB people, culture or otherwise are grand, it won’t change people’s minds who are anti LGTB....

Kids get educated in school about LGTB people and culture, a flag in a stadium doesn’t do jack....if by x age they have decided to ignore all LGTB teachings and dislike them or whatever, seeing a flag won’t change their view.

So if we can just go to a game, watch a game, without LGTB, BLM or whatever gestures and focus as it was meant up to about 5 years ago on football 100% without getting ‘cause whipped’ by every fûcker who want a minute of our attention, I’m grateful...

jakiah

Fandymo wrote: »

Why should any footballer come out as gay?

For the same reasons anyone else comes out as gay I'd imagine? Odd post.

Fandymo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My argument is that they are actively ignoring breaches. Numerous human rights organizations have called it out. UEFA claim to support human rights of the LGBT community. But they are fine with ignoring violations.

What actual human rights are LGBT people being denied in Hungary?

Fandymo

jakiah wrote: »

For the same reasons anyone else comes out as gay I'd imagine? Odd post.

I’m sure there are plenty of gay footballers. Hundreds of them across all of Europe’s leagues. And I’m sure their families and boyfriends know they are gay. But they aren’t public property. They don’t have to announce who or where they are riding. I’m sure you knew exactly what I meant, but there’s another explanation for you. Has your newsagent or butcher ever come out as gay to you while doing their job?? Or is it just footballers you want to do it??

Fandymo

Fandymo wrote: »

What actual human rights are LGBT people being denied in Hungary?

Discrimination based on sexual orientation, freedom of expression and an all round effort to stigmatise the LGBT community. So that would be multiple violations of the treaty of human rights.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/ireland-among-13-eu-states-to-condemn-hungarian-anti-lgbt-law-1.4600667?mode=amp

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

Strumms

There was a time once where you’d go to X sports events, the only flags were for the teams / nations... the only thing taken before kick off was a practice shot or twenty.....

Now multiple flags (non football), gestures, announcements, silences, presentations, none of which are jack to do with football....not brought in the main by fans, but by the organizers and supporters of these causes.