Apt block with common attic (fire safety)

carveone

I live in a block of 6 apartments on two floors (it looks more like a chopped up house than an apartment block).

My apartment is separated from the one beside me by a concrete wall - just a block wall up as far as the attic space which is then common to all three top floor apartments (it's floored too). Each apartment has heat sensors and smoke alarms connected to central fire panel - checked quarterly (at great expense!)

One of the owners has started asking about putting fire dividers up in the attic space and I can't seem to find if this was a fire requirement at the time the apartment was built. Is it a requirement now?

It scares the hell out of me. For one thing, I'm guessing that this is a) a structural change b) might even require planning permission and c) might invalidate whatever fire certificate there is in place. Not to mention the damage that could be caused by a careless installer damaging one of the water pipes that snakes around up there. The electrics in this place are good. The plumbing is pants.

Even worse, this was a 2000s era build. If a fire cert is required then someone might come along to check the building. It looks fine but you never know - a fire officer could easily decide something isn't to code and I'm out on the street. Priory Hall isn't far away to remind me of what can happen.

Any opinions? Thanks :P

Toots

I can't comment on whether is/was a requirement, but one thing is for sure - if you are living in a priory Hall type build, it's far better to know about it and have it remediated rather than to find out the hard way if the building catches fire. If it's bad enough that the fire brigade orders it evacuated then it's not fit to be lived in to begin with. Loads of apartments from that era have fire safety issues and the majority are OK for the residents to continue living in, providing the repair works are done without delay.

carveone

Toots wrote: »

I can't comment on whether is/was a requirement, but one thing is for sure - if you are living in a priory Hall type build, it's far better to know about it and have it remediated rather than to find out the hard way if the building catches fire. If it's bad enough that the fire brigade orders it evacuated then it's not fit to be lived in to begin with. Loads of apartments from that era have fire safety issues and the majority are OK for the residents to continue living in, providing the repair works are done without delay.

I was going on the basis that any issue at all would result in me being turfed out onto the street, thus my anxiety. It looks like Priory Hall was a disaster rather than a minor issue.

I'm pretty confident that the building is fine given that we've had no issues with structures or leaks or any other issues. The builder originally lived there himself (intended it for his family before he overextended himself and went bankrupt). It sounds odd but I'm inclined to trust builders that live in the place they've built! My brother lives in a block of 26 and the place the builder lived in was better than the others :rolleyes:

There's one minor niggle I have (my exit corridor to the front door is really a cut out of next door's area!) but if remediation work was necessary there, it would be minor (just an extra door, which might be good anyway).

It's really that I didn't want the management company to start some major work in the attic if it's not actually necessary and involves a whole bunch of people coming in to re-certify things at great expense.

ElBastardo1

Each unit must be able to contain a fire for 1 hour without it spreading to a common area or another dwelling. I know you don't want to hear this, but from your description this is a potential fire hazard and the only reason it hasn't come to light is because no one has actually looked. the attic should be compartmentalized for each of the dwellings, basically building the block work up to the underside of the roof and the a fire sealant to ensure it can't spread over the roof. This may only come to light if a competent surveyor has a look in the attic during a survey for a property sale. If this was noted in the survey a bank may not lend until the issue is sorted.

A lot of developments have had issues like these raised in the last few years, but especially since Grenfell tower. Banks are now asking questions on developments that have 'No Fire issues' has anyone actually checked there isn't. a major property management company had all of their developments on their books checked 2 years ago and 90% of the apartments failed.

Fire separation for each unit would have been in the regs since the 70's. A lot of the updates on the regs would be mainly around new fire alarm systems etc. Since you live in a small development you probably have no management company. Even if you had a surveyor check and raise this issue it might not get into the public domain and may just affect that one sale. It's your insurers who may eventually ask for a survey and that's when this will raise it's head.

spaceHopper

This might not be as bad as you think. Often between apartments with wooden floors between them, there is a 1-hour fire-resistant celling it's double slabbed with fire-resistant plasterboard. Regular plasterboard has grey or white colour fire board is kind of pink. It should be possible to tell. If you need to retrofit walls between apartments in the attic space, could be done with stud partitions and fireproof plasterboard?

Could it be that whoever wants it done wants to add an office to the attic?

ElBastardo1

spaceHopper wrote: »

This might not be as bad as you think. Often between apartments with wooden floors between them, there is a 1-hour fire-resistant celling it's double slabbed with fire-resistant plasterboard. Regular plasterboard has grey or white colour fire board is kind of pink. It should be possible to tell. If you need to retrofit walls between apartments in the attic space, could be done with stud partitions and fireproof plasterboard?

Could it be that whoever wants it done wants to add an office to the attic?

You're right, if the ceiling is slabbed in this way there may be no issues. Although any openings to the attic would have to be fire compliant also. regarding the size of the attic, is it high that it could be habitable?

This article has some good information

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/our-attic-runs-through-all-the-houses-on-our-terrace-can-we-secure-it-for-privacy-1.4195204

Are you renting or own?

carveone

Thanks guys!

I actually don't know if it was checked by the surveyor or not. But three apts were sold in 2014 so if there was a problem, one of them would have flagged it (no, I don't believe that either!)

After Grenfell, I flagged any fire alarm/lighting issues myself and the management company (we do have one) now has fellows coming in every quarter to do fire and lighting checks (as much as they appear arsed to do it. They don't hang about for 3 hours on the lighting check, I'll tell you that.).

The ceilings in the top floor apartments are double slabbed and the floors are concrete. When the lighting was being updated in the hall, I checked and it's also double slabbed. Which is something! If they weren't now, we'd be rightly screwed - I was relieved when I saw it.

The opening to the attic is some mad big heavy thing - weighs a ton - so it looks fire retardant (to me anyway).

Having said that, I'm suspicious about the corridor out of my apartment. I walk through an arch in the partition wall into that corridor so I am, effectively, inside next doors area. If that wall isn't double slabbed, I'd be unhappy. I might get someone to check from the attic. Or take a plasterboard saw to my wall!

@spaceHopper: Yeah, I'm deadly suspicious about their motivation given that an attic stairs mysteriously appeared above their apartment at some point. Apparently I'm the only one who notices these things

@ex loco refugii: I own.

carveone

Never thought of the attic openings until ElBastardo1 mentioned it. I just bet that attic stairs is not fire compliant! I just bet...

Went about my apartment checking for any other issues. The pipes into the attic are all sealed with some odd stuff. It's not plaster, it's more like cement. I suppose that's a good thing.

Now that ElBastardo1 has said that each unit must be able to contain a fire for 1 hour, the corridor is troubling me. I'll take a wall socket off and check it for double plasterboard at the least. God, I hope I won't be able to see into next door as that's their kitchen.

ElBastardo1

carveone wrote: »

Never thought of the attic openings until ElBastardo1 mentioned it. I just bet that attic stairs is not fire compliant! I just bet...

Went about my apartment checking for any other issues. The pipes into the attic are all sealed with some odd stuff. It's not plaster, it's more like cement. I suppose that's a good thing.

Now that ElBastardo1 has said that each unit must be able to contain a fire for 1 hour, the corridor is troubling me. I'll take a wall socket off and check it for double plasterboard at the least. God, I hope I won't be able to see into next door as that's their kitchen.

That is a party wall, even if it's double slabbed it wouldn't be suitable. Whatever about the ceiling construction, if that wall isn't blockwork or concrete it wouldn't pass building standards. When were the apartments built? Is there Fire certification drawings?

ted1

sounds like your neighbour may also want to use the attic space for their use.

sydthebeat

ElBastardo1 wrote: »

That is a party wall, even if it's double slabbed it wouldn't be suitable. Whatever about the ceiling construction, if that wall isn't blockwork or concrete it wouldn't pass building standards. When were the apartments built? Is there Fire certification drawings?

untrue

65535

Had it in England years ago in those red brick old flats.
The upper flats had a common attic - unknown to most residents.

Ensure that you fit a lock on any access doors to your attic !

spaceHopper

carveone wrote: »

Now that ElBastardo1 has said that each unit must be able to contain a fire for 1 hour, the corridor is troubling me. I'll take a wall socket off and check it for double plasterboard at the least. God, I hope I won't be able to see into next door as that's their kitchen.

If the wall is brick it will contain a fire, there are different weights and thicknesses of plasterboard they tend to double slab the ceilings with a thinner board because it's lighter and easy to work with, it's very heavy otherwise. I wouldn't expect the wall to be double slabbed

ElBastardo1

sydthebeat wrote: »

untrue

for a building 20 years old that what I would expect to see.
The fire rated products available now didn't exist back then.

carveone

As soon as I saw ElBastardo1's post about double slabbing not cutting it, I decided I was being a complete wuss and I went and got a plasterboard saw. There's a hole in the wall now but sure I've hung a picture over it and sure it's grand

The main partition wall that runs all along my sitting room is a 2x4 stud wall on top of a concrete wall. No sound insulation - gee, thanks. That would have been a nice lockdown project, assuming I could get a plasterer!

The corridor out of my apartment isn't double slabbed but it is dot and dab onto actual concrete. Which surprised me given that I can hear everything though that wall but it's a hell of a relief.

@spaceHopper: The ceiling plasterboard does look thinner alright. When the emergency light in the hall died I got a chance to look at it. It's pinkish on one side for some reason, I thought they were all white or grey or something.

@ElBastardo1 - I don't know if there are fire cert drawings but I'll ask the management company (they won't know but sure I'll ask them anyway!). The building was built in 2000.

@ted1 - Yeah. I feel that too, especially since she's talking about "just doing her side for now". Uh huh. Sure. It's a big area and high enough that it would be habitable.

On the other hand, she had estate agents telling her that the open attic didn't meet regulations. Not convinced estate agents always know what they're talking about and I'm inclined to believe ElBastardo1 when he said that if the ceiling is double slabbed there may be no issues. Sure I might drop down to Kilbarrack fire station and ask them

Thanks for the replies, it's been very helpful.

carveone

65535 wrote: »

Had it in England years ago in those red brick old flats. The upper flats had a common attic - unknown to most residents.

Ensure that you fit a lock on any access doors to your attic !

I think there's a lot of them about here too. My Dad's original home in Dalkey was a set of cottages (for the quarry I suppose) with common attics so you could walk next door and hop down. Although not in his house because my grandad was in the army and had guns all over the place!

They've mostly been bricked up now but I'd say there's still lots of those about.

ElBastardo1

carveone wrote: »

I think there's a lot of them about here too. My Dad's original home in Dalkey was a set of cottages (for the quarry I suppose) with common attics so you could walk next door and hop down. Although not in his house because my grandad was in the army and had guns all over the place!

They've mostly been bricked up now but I'd say there's still lots of those about.

My own house is like that, a lot of houses have these issues. Apartments are slightly different though, you have potentially 100's of people at risk if there is a flaw in the development. like Grenfell or when the Hotel in Ballymun went on fire, it can spread to multiple units very quickly. The Fire service are actively checking developments and raising issues.