Ofsted boss warns ‘militant’ activism in schools is a threat to education

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How was it being ignored?

We've had decades of school initiatives to manage bullying, homophobia, and a wide range of other issues, even to the point where many schools have hired counselors who specialize in creating programs to manage these problems. Our legal system has gradually, over time, introduced laws to manage and punish those who engage in persecuting LGBT, or other issues in society.

I've done a range of extra qualifications beyond my primary degree to help me with teaching/lecturing, and most of them had a few components dealing with diversity or increasing teacher awareness about bullying, or LGBT issues,

So, why is there this need for further campaigning, since our society is already extremely sympathetic towards LGBT or the issues of bullying? Better yet, why the need to project this campaigning into schools, and directing such agendas towards children?

As a person who left the secondary system about ten years back. Schools are **** with bullying, they can handle it terribly. Plenty of campaigning perhaps but I have personal experience of it being handled poorly. I'm completely lost on why anyone would be so offended by the concept of pride. So ya I think creating an environment where bullying is less and the school feels actively more inclusive is great.

AndrewJRenko

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Are there primary schools inviting that group in?

That group isn't active in Ireland, but some people are desperate to paint the picture of the big scary bogeyman who's going to infect their kids with gayness.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a huge history behind that flag so I'd hope they're educated on why pride exists. It's because historically intolerance has been an issue and it's genuinely good to learn about that side of pretty modern history. It exists because very recent generations were discriminated against to a huge degree. It's a celebration of getting a through a huge struggle and recognizing that others still are facing such a struggle elsewhere.

Sure, I agree that that should be part of a history education and that it should be taught to children who are old enough to understand it.

I just don't think that pride month celebrations on tots TV are achieving that so much as they are highlighting difference to children who live in the first country in the world to legalise SSM by popular vote.

suicide_circus

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Are there primary schools inviting that group in?

They were in the UK as far as i know

suicide_circus

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That group isn't active in Ireland, but some people are desperate to paint the picture of the big scary bogeyman who's going to infect their kids with gayness.

Nope sorry. As i clarified that group is/were active in UK schools.

Personally i dont want my daughter told that if she likes playing with GI Joes and toy cars she might be born in the wrong body.

Same way i dont want her told that a man in the sky is judging her every thought and action.

Same way i dont want her taught that her white skin is some sort of original sin.

kildare lad

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Are there primary schools inviting that group in?

The was a case in Canada of a sick weirdo brainwashing kids , including giving a 12 yo blockers without informing the parents . It's actually sick some of the ideology people think is ok to push on children.

https://thebridgehead.ca/2019/04/22/gender-therapy-doctor-admits-to-advising-kids-to-fake-being-suicidal-to-get-transgender-treatments/

https://whatisawoman.uk/?page=Casestudy

https://www.city-journal.org/canadian-father-jailed-for-speaking-out-about-trans-identifying-child

Mad_maxx

D rog wrote: »

Promotion of ideology to young minds? Our entire school system was a catholic religious lifestyle education vehicle until very recently!
I'm very glad to see some other, more secular, ideologies start to get in there and balance things a bit.

yes , everything new is always positive

AndrewJRenko

suicide_circus wrote: »

They were in the UK as far as i know

Do you know, or do you not know? You were asked a specific question about primary schools, so maybe you could either answer the question, or confirm that you don't actually know the answer.

suicide_circus wrote: »

Nope sorry. As i clarified that group is/were active in UK schools.

Personally i dont want my daughter told that if she likes playing with GI Joes and toy cars she might be born in the wrong body.

Same way i dont want her told that a man in the sky is judging her every thought and action.

Same way i dont want her taught that her white skin is some sort of original sin.

Do Mermaids teach that 'someone is born in the wrong body'? That sounds a bit of a 1980s perspective, so they've probably moved on from that by now.

kildare lad wrote: »

The was a case in Canada of a sick weirdo brainwashing kids , including giving a 12 yo blockers without informing the parents . It's actually sick some of the ideology people think is ok to push on children.

https://thebridgehead.ca/2019/04/22/gender-therapy-doctor-admits-to-advising-kids-to-fake-being-suicidal-to-get-transgender-treatments/

https://whatisawoman.uk/?page=Casestudy

https://www.city-journal.org/canadian-father-jailed-for-speaking-out-about-trans-identifying-child

It's amazing how well informed some people are about edge cases in other countries on this one particular issue, even though those cases have no relevance to Ireland.

freshpopcorn

whisky_galore wrote: »

They got a few days off, made up posters with their crayons and had a laugh. Now it's all forgotten about and they're happy to be driven everywhere in mummy's gas guzzling troop carrier.
I dont think they are any more serious than their elders.

When I was at school we'd have certainly went on strike for a day out in Dublin or Cork.
Locally there's one or two who occasionally have a protest or post stuff online and they don't seem to be convincing their friends.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do Mermaids teach that 'someone is born in the wrong body'? That sounds a bit of a 1980s perspective, so they've probably moved on from that by now.

It's not that '80s. You'll find plenty of trans people referring to themselves as being born in the wrong body if you do a very quick search.

Mermaids used this language until the UK government released guidance that said:

Materials which suggest that non-conformity to gender stereotypes should be seen as synonymous with having a different gender identity should not be used and you should not work with external agencies or organisations that produce such material. While teachers should not suggest to a child that their non-compliance with gender stereotypes means that either their personality or their body is wrong and in need of changing, teachers should always seek to treat individual students with sympathy and support.

At which point, Mermaids declare for the first time that "No child is born in the wrong body".

AndrewJRenko

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Turned on RTE junior for the kids in the past few days and the presenter was bursting with enthusiasm about " Pride Month " , what then followed was a piece from a Dublin school with kids running about waving rainbow flags ( as if they were in China circa 1960 with little red books )and talking about how important "pride " is, the narator also referred to " LGBT " a few times

Blatant ideological indoctrination

Indoctrination on the scary message that people can love whoever the hell they want to. Do you have a problem with this message?

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not that '80s. You'll find plenty of trans people referring to themselves as being born in the wrong body if you do a very quick search.

Mermaids used this language until the UK government released guidance that said:



At which point, Mermaids declare for the first time that "No child is born in the wrong body".

Right, so the organisation doesn't operate in Ireland and doesn't spread the message that SC is accusing of spreading.

Wow, we'd really better get our skates on quick to make sure that it continues to not happen in Ireland.

suicide_circus

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Right, so the organisation doesn't operate in Ireland and doesn't spread the message that SC is accusing of spreading.

Wow, we'd really better get our skates on quick to make sure that it continues to not happen in Ireland.

Well they did promote the idea of kids in the wrong body until the government intervened. And the OP refers to the UK so i think we're well within the remit of the thread to discuss the UK.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

As a person who left the secondary system about ten years back. Schools are **** with bullying, they can handle it terribly.

Or they can handle it well. Ongoing school reform is the answer.. as part of an overall process to better the system. Bullying is extremely difficult to manage effectively. Protesting and the pushing of agendas in/at schools is not going to change that.

Plenty of campaigning perhaps but I have personal experience of it being handled poorly.

Ditto. I was seriously bullied in both primary and secondary school, twice ending up in hospital while in primary school because of the behavior of bullies. I understand the pain and humiliation that goes on. (along with the effects of that trauma staying with someone for decades afterwards)

I'm completely lost on why anyone would be so offended by the concept of pride.

Not what was said. It was said that pride and similar events had become political.. which they have. Too many agendas being pushed, and personally, there's a lot of bullying within the LGBT community when it comes to Pride events.

So ya I think creating an environment where bullying is less and the school feels actively more inclusive is great.

I'm still trying to understand this "inclusive" thingy that people here are so approving of.

When people talk about being inclusive, it seems (to me) to scream the differences between people. "My child is gay, and I demand that he should be recognised as such, and so, he needs to be protected". Whereas, my view is that being homosexual, trans, or whatever should be considered perfectly normal, and not be grounds for attention. Moving to a point in society where people don't consider it odd to be gay or whatever, and therefore not grounds for bullying or humiliation. When people make a big deal about homosexuality, they're simply encouraging children (and adults) to see it as being somehow different, and therefore, that attracts the wrong kind of attention.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Right, so the organisation [...] doesn't spread the message that SC is accusing of spreading.

Well the answer is more that they did spread exactly that message until a change in government policy meant that they would have been prohibited from being involved in education, at which point they changed course.

So it does seem to make sense that if we don't want "very 80s" messaging about gender taught to kids in Ireland, education guidelines need to be clear.

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Or they can handle it well. Ongoing school reform is the answer.. as part of an overall process to better the system. Bullying is extremely difficult to manage effectively. Protesting and the pushing of agendas in/at schools is not going to change that.



Ditto. I was seriously bullied in both primary and secondary school, twice ending up in hospital while in primary school because of the behavior of bullies. I understand the pain and humiliation that goes on. (along with the effects of that trauma staying with someone for decades afterwards)



Not what was said. It was said that pride and similar events had become political.. which they have. Too many agendas being pushed, and personally, there's a lot of bullying within the LGBT community when it comes to Pride events.



I'm still trying to understand this "inclusive" thingy that people here are so approving of.

When people talk about being inclusive, it seems (to me) to scream the differences between people. "My child is gay, and I demand that he should be recognised as such, and so, he needs to be protected". Whereas, my view is that being homosexual, trans, or whatever should be considered perfectly normal, and not be grounds for attention. Moving to a point in society where people don't consider it odd to be gay or whatever, and therefore not grounds for bullying or humiliation. When people make a big deal about homosexuality, they're simply encouraging children (and adults) to see it as being somehow different, and therefore, that attracts the wrong kind of attention.

So de gayz are grand as long as they keep their heads down and stay out of your way? How does other people getting attention harm you? Does it mean you get less attention?

You don't have to go to the parade. You don't have to watch the 90 second clip that will be on the news.

You don't get to rain on the parade though.

Make sure you don't watch this non political celebration of people though. You might find it draining of your attention.

https://twitter.com/ray_dublin/status/1408743337423781893?s=19

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So de gayz are grand as long as they keep their heads down and stay out of your way?

Andrew, You've managed to perfectly illustrate why I don't like the activists and advocates supposedly pursuing "rights" for homosexuals. You completely and utterly misrepresented my post, just so that you could push your own opinion (agenda).

Where did I say that homosexuals should hide who they are or regulate their behaviors in any way different from other people? I didn't.

And you also illustrate the other problem with such activism. You're threatened by the idea that people might not make an issue of being homosexual, or anything else for that matter. From experience, I would have loved it, if growing up, homosexuality had been accepted the same way as heterosexuality... but that's not what you want, is it? You want the differences to be exaggerated.

How does other people getting attention harm you? Does it mean you get less attention?

I have a shaking disorder that affects my whole body, similar to the tremors that affect those with Parkinson's disease. I've had this condition since I was 13, and it draws attention. Most people will try not to acknowledge it, but throughout the last 31 years, many others have chosen to use it as an excuse to insult, humiliate, or turn into some kind of humorous situation.

I understand what it's like to be on the receiving end of attention. I've also been bisexual throughout my teens and adulthood, openly such from entering university.

Now, I realise that's not what you asked, because you felt the need to twist the ideas being presented, but I'm explaining this because I feel you're doing more harm than good with your crusading.

You don't have to go to the parade. You don't have to watch the 90 second clip that will be on the news.

You don't get to rain on the parade though.

Again, where did I "rain on the parade". I made two simple statements, in two posts. Exaggerate much?

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Andrew, You've managed to perfectly illustrate why I don't like the activists and advocates supposedly pursuing "rights" for homosexuals. You completely and utterly misrepresented my post, just so that you could push your own opinion (agenda).

Where did I say that homosexuals should hide who they are or regulate their behaviors in any way different from other people? I didn't.

And you also illustrate the other problem with such activism. You're threatened by the idea that people might not make an issue of being homosexual, or anything else for that matter. From experience, I would have loved it, if growing up, homosexuality had been accepted the same way as heterosexuality... but that's not what you want, is it? You want the differences to be exaggerated.



I have a shaking disorder that affects my whole body, similar to the tremors that affect those with Parkinson's disease. I've had this condition since I was 13, and it draws attention. Most people will try not to acknowledge it, but throughout the last 31 years, many others have chosen to use it as an excuse to insult, humiliate, or turn into some kind of humorous situation.

I understand what it's like to be on the receiving end of attention. I've also been bisexual throughout my teens and adulthood, openly such from entering university.

Now, I realise that's not what you asked, because you felt the need to twist the ideas being presented, but I'm explaining this because I feel you're doing more harm than good with your crusading.



Again, where did I "rain on the parade". I made two simple statements, in two posts. Exaggerate much?

I don't think participating in Pride is compulsory.

If anyone chooses not to make an issue of their sexuality, that is absolutely fine by me, and generally by most others.

If anyone chooses to participate in Pride, that's absolutely fine too.

You still haven't explained how other people getting attention impacts you negatively.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I don't think participating in Pride is compulsory.

Nor did I suggest it was. You really are doubling down on the twisting of posts.

You still haven't explained how other people getting attention impacts you negatively.

Because I didn't say it.

You said it. You just want to set the narrative and have me respond to your criteria for the discussion. Here's a novel idea.. deal with what was written.

suicide_circus

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I don't think participating in Pride is compulsory.

Do think governments, institutions, schools, businesses etc who don't wish to participate in Pride have questions to answer?

AndrewJRenko

suicide_circus wrote: »

Do think governments, institutions, schools, businesses etc who don't wish to participate in Pride have questions to answer?

Which ones are you referring to?

suicide_circus

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Which ones are you referring to?

hypothetical question

AndrewJRenko

suicide_circus wrote: »

hypothetical question

Hypothetical answer - It depends. But this is really trying to drag in a different issue, to make victims of those poor hypothetical business owners that hypothetically choose not to get involved, and might have to face the trauma of a customer or employee saying 'would you think of getting involved in Pride at all?'.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

Nor did I suggest it was. You really are doubling down on the twisting of posts.



Because I didn't say it.

You said it. You just want to set the narrative and have me respond to your criteria for the discussion. Here's a novel idea.. deal with what was written.

Great idea, let's deal with what was written. You wrote; "You're threatened by the idea that people might not make an issue of being homosexual" which you seem to have plucked out of the ether somewhere. I said nothing to suggest that people should or must make an issue of being gay.

It is clear that some, maybe even many gay people, and their straight allies, choose to make an issue of being gay. Do you have a problem with those people who choose to make an issue of being gay, those who choose to draw attention on their gayness?

suicide_circus

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Hypothetical answer - It depends. But this is really trying to drag in a different issue, to make victims of those poor hypothetical business owners that hypothetically choose not to get involved, and might have to face the trauma of a customer or employee saying 'would you think of getting involved in Pride at all?'.

Is "we don't want to" a sufficient answer? Hypothetically

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Great idea, let's deal with what was written. You wrote; "You're threatened by the idea that people might not make an issue of being homosexual" which you seem to have plucked out of the ether somewhere. I said nothing to suggest that people should or must make an issue of being gay.

I see. I suppose it makes perfect sense to question that particular statement, when you ignore everything you wrote (and I wrote) preceding it.

It is clear that some, maybe even many gay people, and their straight allies, choose to make an issue of being gay. Do you have a problem with those people who choose to make an issue of being gay, those who choose to draw attention on their gayness?

In the context of the thread, relating to schools, and minors, yes. I do. (based on what I wrote previously). For the actions of adults within society, I've no issue at all.

AndrewJRenko

suicide_circus wrote: »

Is "we don't want to" a sufficient answer? Hypothetically

Hypothetically, it depends. Sufficient for who or for what purpose? I'm fairly sure my local bike shop had no participation in today's virtual event. I'd be surprised if it spontaneously combusts over the weekend as a result.

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I see. I suppose it makes perfect sense to question that particular statement, when you ignore everything you wrote (and I wrote) preceding it.



In the context of the thread, relating to schools, and minors, yes. I do. (based on what I wrote previously). For the actions of adults within society, I've no issue at all.

It makes sense to question that statement because it is utterly and blatantly wrong.

Regarding minors, is it the existence of all human relationships that they need to be protected from, or just the pesky gay ones?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It makes sense to question that statement because it is utterly and blatantly wrong.

Really? I see it based on the manner of your posts..

Regarding minors, is it the existence of all human relationships that they need to be protected from, or just the pesky gay ones?

You do realise being bisexual means that I'm also gay?

In any case, you're once more trying to create a set narrative, as opposed to sticking, even remotely, to what I wrote earlier.

TBH I suspect you have a discussion going on in your head, and it doesn't really matter what I write, because you'll still write your "responses". It certainly doesn't feel that you're actually considering what I write, except as a way to score on some kind of points system.

Mad_maxx

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It makes sense to question that statement because it is utterly and blatantly wrong.

Regarding minors, is it the existence of all human relationships that they need to be protected from, or just the pesky gay ones?

why do they need to be taught about adult relationships at all at an early age ?

" dont take lifts from strangers "

" do not bully other kids "

" be respectful to teachers "

" tell mam and dad if anyone acts strange towards you "

that kind of instruction is enough in the majority of primary school

suicide_circus

No no Max, we need to instil a strong sense of the importance of skin colour and sexuality in children.

ArthurDayne

Deleted User wrote: »

They already were. Everyone could go to school, irrespective of their personal circumstances.

Or does inclusive mean that their situation becomes highlighted? By focusing on these things, they're ensuring that people view them as "different".. as opposed to simply being students going to school, where nobody cares what their personal circumstances are.

These initiatives just seem to reinforce differences rather than seek a society where these things aren't special or noteworthy.

I’m not sure that was my experience of school — where yes, it was not about reinforcing difference — but reinforcing the idea that any great degree of difference should be avoided almost entirely. The fellas at my school who were gay were more or less just ignored — sex education and religious education was very much Adam-and-Eve and there was no real attempt to educate us or even bring us to a state of acknowledgement that being gay was absolutely fine. I talk to a lot of old students of my school who are now openly gay and the stories of their childhoods and the secret shame they felt forced to bear silently is an utter travesty. Being different at school, for a lot of people, simply meant keeping schtum about it — it was “accepted” as long as you kept your head down and tacitly acknowledged that the pre-approved default personality was to be a ‘normal’ heterosexual person. This goes well beyond the idea that inclusivity simply means that you are allowed to go to school even if you are gay.

People go on about wokeism being this new fad, when to be honest I can remember oul ones complaining about political correctness gone mad since I was a child. But as imperfect, clumsy, overzealous, irritating, patronising and downright eye-rolling a lot of it can be — I do also see a world around me where people who I grew up with and never had the slightest idea were gay can now talk about it openly. The greater visibility and, yes, activism for acceptance of gay children and young adults has provided a platform and confidence for young people, where once they would have felt quite alone and more inclined to suppress and hide who they were.

I agree with you that the ideal scenario is one where a kid being gay is just a normalised thing that nobody passes remark on or feels the need to discriminate or celebrate. Pride has been corporatised yes, there’s an element where people simply play along with it all when really they aren’t arsed about it. It’s been a very clumsy lumbering and sometimes disingenuous path from homosexuality etc being something that you concealed in your career, all the way to Fortune 500 companies putting miniature Pride flags at peoples’ desks. But the overall net effect seems to be a world where it is becoming increasingly normalised for people to be open about the their sexual identity — even if there are some downsides. Basically, the scenario you hope for is one we should all hope to see, but not one which is just going to happen overnight (nor have societal attitudes come as far as they have overnight) and activism has by and large played a role in pushing that forward even if some people feel alienated by it.

Mad_maxx

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I’m not sure that was my experience of school — where yes, it was not about reinforcing difference — but reinforcing the idea that any great degree of difference should be avoided almost entirely. The fellas at my school who were gay were more or less just ignored — sex education and religious education was very much Adam-and-Eve and there was no real attempt to educate us or even bring us to a state of acknowledgement that being gay was absolutely fine. I talk to a lot of old students of my school who are now openly gay and the stories of their childhoods and the secret shame they felt forced to bear silently is an utter travesty. Being different at school, for a lot of people, simply meant keeping schtum about it — it was “accepted” as long as you kept your head down and tacitly acknowledged that the pre-approved default personality was to be a ‘normal’ heterosexual person. This goes well beyond the idea that inclusivity simply means that you are allowed to go to school even if you are gay.

People go on about wokeism being this new fad, when to be honest I can remember oul ones complaining about political correctness gone mad since I was a child. But as imperfect, clumsy, overzealous, irritating, patronising and downright eye-rolling a lot of it can be — I do also see a world around me where people who I grew up with and never had the slightest idea were gay can now talk about it openly. The greater visibility and, yes, activism for acceptance of gay children and young adults has provided a platform and confidence for young people, where once they would have felt quite alone and more inclined to suppress and hide who they were.

I agree with you that the ideal scenario is one where a kid being gay is just a normalised thing that nobody passes remark on or feels the need to discriminate or celebrate. Pride has been corporatised yes, there’s an element where people simply play along with it all when really they aren’t arsed about it. It’s been a very clumsy lumbering and sometimes disingenuous path from homosexuality etc being something that you concealed in your career, all the way to Fortune 500 companies putting miniature Pride flags at peoples’ desks. But the overall net effect seems to be a world where it is becoming increasingly normalised for people to be open about the their sexual identity — even if there are some downsides. Basically, the scenario you hope for is one we should all hope to see, but not one which is just going to happen overnight (nor have societal attitudes come as far as they have overnight) and activism has by and large played a role in pushing that forward even if some people feel alienated by it.

The " default position " is to be heterosexual, that is likely to remain the case

AndrewJRenko

Mad_maxx wrote: »

why do they need to be taught about adult relationships at all at an early age ?

" dont take lifts from strangers "

" do not bully other kids "

" be respectful to teachers "

" tell mam and dad if anyone acts strange towards you "

that kind of instruction is enough in the majority of primary school

Couldn't have done a better job at proving the need for Pride and similar myself. What happens to the kids who don't have 'mam and dad'?

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The " default position " is to be heterosexual, that is likely to remain the case

Dunno what you mean by 'default', but ignoring the mental health issues that arise when people are made feel that there is something wrong with their deepest inner feelings hasn't worked out too well to date.

What are you afraid of by talking about homosexuality in schools?

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? I see it based on the manner of your posts..



You do realise being bisexual means that I'm also gay?

In any case, you're once more trying to create a set narrative, as opposed to sticking, even remotely, to what I wrote earlier.

TBH I suspect you have a discussion going on in your head, and it doesn't really matter what I write, because you'll still write your "responses". It certainly doesn't feel that you're actually considering what I write, except as a way to score on some kind of points system.

What's your own sexuality got to do with anything? It's not about you, or indeed about me. It's not about you making up things about my posts that weren't in there.

It's about people feeling normal, feeling valued, feeling that their deepest inner feelings are just as valid as everyone else's.

There's reason why you very rarely see young gay couples doing 'public displays of affection', whether hand-holding or snogging, in the way that straight couples do. There's a reason why the two gay people that I work with both refer obliquely to 'the other half' in general conversations, instead of naming their partner as most other people would do.

ArthurDayne

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I agree with you that the ideal scenario is one where a kid being gay is just a normalised thing that nobody passes remark on or feels the need to discriminate or celebrate. Pride has been corporatised yes, there’s an element where people simply play along with it all when really they aren’t arsed about it. It’s been a very clumsy lumbering and sometimes disingenuous path from homosexuality etc being something that you concealed in your career, all the way to Fortune 500 companies putting miniature Pride flags at peoples’ desks. But the overall net effect seems to be a world where it is becoming increasingly normalised for people to be open about the their sexual identity — even if there are some downsides. Basically, the scenario you hope for is one we should all hope to see, but not one which is just going to happen overnight (nor have societal attitudes come as far as they have overnight) and activism has by and large played a role in pushing that forward even if some people feel alienated by it.

I think your post makes a lot of sense, but I also think it's important to consider why there has been a drop—particularly in younger generations—in LGBT acceptance.

This 2019 report was conducted on behalf of GLAAD, in the US, where I think most people would say "wokeism" is at its most hysterical on any given day.

In the 18-34 age group, there has been a steady decline in people calling themselves "allies" since 2016, and in overall comfort and acceptance of LGBTQ people in that age group.

Given that younger generations are usually considered to be (and historically have been) the most progressive and tolerant, it bears investigating whether increasing efforts to improve LGBTQ acceptance are working as intended, and if not, then to think about how we might do things differently so that we can return to or maintain the trajectory of increasing acceptance in Ireland, instead of following the US down a well-meaning but apparently counterproductive path.

Danzy

Deleted User wrote: »

I think your post makes a lot of sense, but I also think it's important to consider why there has been a drop—particularly in younger generations—in LGBT acceptance.

This 2019 report was conducted on behalf of GLAAD, in the US, where I think most people would say "wokeism" is at its most hysterical on any given day.

In the 18-34 age group, there has been a steady decline in people calling themselves "allies" since 2016, and in overall comfort and acceptance of LGBTQ people in that age group.

Given that younger generations are usually considered to be (and historically have been) the most progressive and tolerant, it bears investigating whether increasing efforts to improve LGBTQ acceptance are working as intended, and if not, then to think about how we might do things differently so that we can return to or maintain the trajectory of increasing acceptance in Ireland, instead of following the US down a well-meaning but apparently counterproductive path.

The"Allies" and woke activists are often really horrible people, thats the crisis at the heart of "progressive" politics.

They have only one contextual framework to interpret things through, that everyone else is evil, overtly or subconsciously and must be told that again and again.

Of course people are going to walk away.

It's extreme narcissism.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What's your own sexuality got to do with anything? It's not about you, or indeed about me. It's not about you making up things about my posts that weren't in there.

Your post #35 made my sexuality relevant, just as you've thrown out comments about gay people, like as if you've got some kind of insider knowledge, that others don't have.

I haven't made up a single thing about your posts. Whereas, you have with mine when you twisted them earlier. Which I pointed out.

It's about people feeling normal, feeling valued, feeling that their deepest inner feelings are just as valid as everyone else's.

There's reason why you very rarely see young gay couples doing 'public displays of affection', whether hand-holding or snogging, in the way that straight couples do. There's a reason why the two gay people that I work with both refer obliquely to 'the other half' in general conversations, instead of naming their partner as most other people would do.

And how is all of that relevant/related to the previous posts? It's not.

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Your post #35 made my sexuality relevant, just as you've thrown out comments about gay people, like as if you've got some kind of insider knowledge, that others don't have.

I haven't made up a single thing about your posts. Whereas, you have with mine when you twisted them earlier. Which I pointed out.



And how is all of that relevant/related to the previous posts? It's not.

Here's what you made up, given that I never said anything of the sort.
"You're threatened by the idea that people might not make an issue of being homosexual"

ArthurDayne

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I’m not sure that was my experience of school — where yes, it was not about reinforcing difference — but reinforcing the idea that any great degree of difference should be avoided almost entirely. The fellas at my school who were gay were more or less just ignored — sex education and religious education was very much Adam-and-Eve and there was no real attempt to educate us or even bring us to a state of acknowledgement that being gay was absolutely fine. I talk to a lot of old students of my school who are now openly gay and the stories of their childhoods and the secret shame they felt forced to bear silently is an utter travesty.

Well, if we're talking about what it was like to be gay in school.. I suspect I'm somewhat older than you, and Ireland was far less tolerant of people being gay. Physical violence, not simply bullying was pretty common towards anyone perceived as being gay (regardless of whether they were or not). There was/is a very strong condition with heterosexual males (and females to a lesser degree) of fear towards homosexuals, and that generally manifested in horrible behavior. I was always more feminine than masculine in my mannerisms, and not terribly interested in the "lad" culture that went on in my midlands town. Without that interest, I was firmly outside most of the groups, and so, became a target for all manner of remarks, and attitudes, which was compounded by the suspicion that I might be gay. The young/teen culture I grew up in was very role orientated. Similar to the US with their football and cheerleader setup, in my town, there were the sporty GAA people, the beautiful/cool crowd, the nerds, etc... and then, there were those few who didn't fit in, and were abused for it.

So, I completely understand what you're referring to.

Being different at school, for a lot of people, simply meant keeping schtum about it — it was “accepted” as long as you kept your head down and tacitly acknowledged that the pre-approved default personality was to be a ‘normal’ heterosexual person. This goes well beyond the idea that inclusivity simply means that you are allowed to go to school even if you are gay.

Secondary school for me was hell, and I have very few fond memories from that whole time. However, from what I gather from younger friends, family members, and teacher friends, the situation in most schools has changed considerably with a gradual thawing of the contempt towards gay people. Not complete acceptance, but a definite improvement over what went before.

And that's the point really. As homosexuality became more acceptable within mainstream society, it led to less approval for the behaviors that sought to bully, humiliate or punish those who were gay. It's not perfect by any means, but there's noticeable improvement in attitudes towards gay people. When I was finishing secondary school, a gay guy could easily be jumped on and beaten up when leaving a pub, simply because that group of semi-drunk frustrated guys felt like it. Now, there's none of that. Oh sure, there's the odd ignorant comment, and possibly a few insults, but the violence has largely disappeared.

That is what inclusivity means for me. General acceptance, whereby I, or others can be openly gay, and can get on with their lives, without the attitudes of others wanting to humiliate or punish those who are gay.

People go on about wokeism being this new fad, when to be honest I can remember oul ones complaining about political correctness gone mad since I was a child. But as imperfect, clumsy, overzealous, irritating, patronising and downright eye-rolling a lot of it can be — I do also see a world around me where people who I grew up with and never had the slightest idea were gay can now talk about it openly. The greater visibility and, yes, activism for acceptance of gay children and young adults has provided a platform and confidence for young people, where once they would have felt quite alone and more inclined to suppress and hide who they were.

Ahh well, I see a difference between Woke/PC culture, and the movement to provide rights and acceptance for Gay people. I know many people who campaigned for Gay rights.. and they're not woke or PC. They have absolutely no interest in any of that, and would generally be disapproving of the attitudes associated with the woke movements... but then, they'd also be disapproving of the more aggressive elements of Gay rights movements. As would I.

I agree with you that the ideal scenario is one where a kid being gay is just a normalised thing that nobody passes remark on or feels the need to discriminate or celebrate

Exactly. The same as would be for a heterosexual person. And I do believe we are heading in that direction (not there yet, but considering how short a time has gone by for all this to happen, I'm rather impressed). I can see the changes in society, compared to hostile world I grew up in.

Pride has been corporatised yes, there’s an element where people simply play along with it all when really they aren’t arsed about it. It’s been a very clumsy lumbering and sometimes disingenuous path from homosexuality etc being something that you concealed in your career, all the way to Fortune 500 companies putting miniature Pride flags at peoples’ desks. But the overall net effect seems to be a world where it is becoming increasingly normalised for people to be open about the their sexual identity — even if there are some downsides. Basically, the scenario you hope for is one we should all hope to see, but not one which is just going to happen overnight (nor have societal attitudes come as far as they have overnight) and activism has by and large played a role in pushing that forward even if some people feel alienated by it.

Agreed. However, just as with employment unions, there comes a time when the organisation or associations that brought about so much positive change, starts to effect negative change just to stay relevant. That's a danger.

You see, for me, I feel that (in most western nations) gay rights has been achieved. Social change has reached the point where we're pretty much accepted in most situations, and while some people will continue to be uncomfortable (or hostile) with gay people, it takes time for those people to adjust or die off. The foundation for complete acceptance of homosexual people has been laid.. and society just needs some time to catch up.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Here's what you made up, given that I never said anything of the sort.
"You're threatened by the idea that people might not make an issue of being homosexual"

Whatever.

You refuse to consider your own previous posts, and the manner in which you responded to mine. That statement has relevance considering what was previously written, and what you sought to twist to score points.

I've no interest wrangling with you over this.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

Whatever.

You refuse to consider your own previous posts, and the manner in which you responded to mine. That statement has relevance considering what was previously written, and what you sought to twist to score points.

I've no interest wrangling with you over this.

I'm still trying to understand why you have a problem with other people who choose to bring attention on their sexuality, and what kind of stuff about love or relationships are OK to be covered in schools.

You're right to say that things are broadly improving in schools and in society at large, but we're still a long way your goal where sexuality is just not an issue.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm still trying to understand why you have a problem with other people who choose to bring attention on their sexuality

For the last time. You said that... not me. [although my last answer below should cover such a statement]

, and what kind of stuff about love or relationships are OK to be covered in schools.

That's new. Haven't said anything about that at all.

You're right to say that things are broadly improving in schools and in society at large, but we're still a long way your goal where sexuality is just not an issue.

Ahh well, I think we'd be a lot closer to such a goal if the activists didn't seek to draw attention to sexuality and identity so much. Give society and schools some breathing room to accept the new reality that homosexuality is accepted now, before jumping in with everything else, like trans issues.

Most of these activists (from what I've read anyway) don't seem to want anything to become normalised, and instead have latched on to concepts like gender fluidity, and other similar ideas in the push for individuals rights. Each new movement becomes more aggressive and in peoples faces, than the movement before them.

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, if we're talking about what it was like to be gay in school.. I suspect I'm somewhat older than you, and Ireland was far less tolerant of people being gay. Physical violence, not simply bullying was pretty common towards anyone perceived as being gay (regardless of whether they were or not). There was/is a very strong condition with heterosexual males (and females to a lesser degree) of fear towards homosexuals, and that generally manifested in horrible behavior. I was always more feminine than masculine in my mannerisms, and not terribly interested in the "lad" culture that went on in my midlands town. Without that interest, I was firmly outside most of the groups, and so, became a target for all manner of remarks, and attitudes, which was compounded by the suspicion that I might be gay. The young/teen culture I grew up in was very role orientated. Similar to the US with their football and cheerleader setup, in my town, there were the sporty GAA people, the beautiful/cool crowd, the nerds, etc... and then, there were those few who didn't fit in, and were abused for it.

So, I completely understand what you're referring to.



Secondary school for me was hell, and I have very few fond memories from that whole time. However, from what I gather from younger friends, family members, and teacher friends, the situation in most schools has changed considerably with a gradual thawing of the contempt towards gay people. Not complete acceptance, but a definite improvement over what went before.

And that's the point really. As homosexuality became more acceptable within mainstream society, it led to less approval for the behaviors that sought to bully, humiliate or punish those who were gay. It's not perfect by any means, but there's noticeable improvement in attitudes towards gay people. When I was finishing secondary school, a gay guy could easily be jumped on and beaten up when leaving a pub, simply because that group of semi-drunk frustrated guys felt like it. Now, there's none of that. Oh sure, there's the odd ignorant comment, and possibly a few insults, but the violence has largely disappeared.

That is what inclusivity means for me. General acceptance, whereby I, or others can be openly gay, and can get on with their lives, without the attitudes of others wanting to humiliate or punish those who are gay.



Ahh well, I see a difference between Woke/PC culture, and the movement to provide rights and acceptance for Gay people. I know many people who campaigned for Gay rights.. and they're not woke or PC. They have absolutely no interest in any of that, and would generally be disapproving of the attitudes associated with the woke movements... but then, they'd also be disapproving of the more aggressive elements of Gay rights movements. As would I.



Exactly. The same as would be for a heterosexual person. And I do believe we are heading in that direction (not there yet, but considering how short a time has gone by for all this to happen, I'm rather impressed). I can see the changes in society, compared to hostile world I grew up in.



Agreed. However, just as with employment unions, there comes a time when the organisation or associations that brought about so much positive change, starts to effect negative change just to stay relevant. That's a danger.

You see, for me, I feel that (in most western nations) gay rights has been achieved. Social change has reached the point where we're pretty much accepted in most situations, and while some people will continue to be uncomfortable (or hostile) with gay people, it takes time for those people to adjust or die off. The foundation for complete acceptance of homosexual people has been laid.. and society just needs some time to catch up.

All that societal acceptance didnt just happen out of nowhere. Schools are much more accepting and tolerant places precisely because of the work by organisations like BeLonG To and Shoutout and indeed many other LGBT Rights organisations. No reason why that work shouldnt continue. Many young LGBT people still struggle; with bullying, mental health etc. As we can also see in Poland and Hungary there can also be regressive steps backwards on these issues too and attempting to demonise LGBT people in pretty sick political rhetoric.

zom

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

...we're still a long way your goal where sexuality is just not an issue.

Even in highly civilized and developed countries this is a shock for some:

https://meaww.com/viral-video-shows-woman-traumatized-after-a-man-walked-around-exposing-penis-at-women-spa

Canada still long way behind:

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/barbara-kay-the-complicated-truth-about-transwomen-in-womens-prisons

Annasopra

zom wrote: »

Even in highly civilized and developed countries this is a shock for some:

https://meaww.com/viral-video-shows-woman-traumatized-after-a-man-walked-around-exposing-penis-at-women-spa

Canada still long way behind:

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/barbara-kay-the-complicated-truth-about-transwomen-in-womens-prisons

Haha. Some drivel that nothing to do with the post you quoted.

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

All that societal acceptance didnt just happen out of nowhere. Schools are [/B]much more accepting and tolerant places precisely because of the work by organisations like BeLonG To and Shoutout and indeed many other LGBT Rights organisations. No reason why that work shouldnt continue. Many young LGBT people still struggle; with bullying, mental health etc.

And many LGB people will always struggle regardless of whether homosexuality is accepted by mainstream society, or not. Just as there will always be some people who resist (as we did) social norms, and rules, except for them, it will be to bully or hurt LGB people. There comes a time when any movement should ask themselves whether they've achieved their goals, and whether the new goals are doing more harm than good. (Yes, I removed the T from LGBT because I don't see them as being the same movements)

Mental health is a complicated area, and I suspect most of it is would disappear should homosexuality be accepted, and those MH issues that don't, are connected to something else entirely.

As we can also see in Poland and Hungary there can also be regressive steps backwards on these issues too and attempting to demonise LGBT people in pretty sick political rhetoric.

Eastern Europe has a very different range of cultures, and weren't part of the same social change that Western Europe or the US experienced. This thread was referring to UK/Ireland.

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And many LGB people will always struggle regardless of whether homosexuality is accepted by mainstream society, or not. Just as there will always be some people who resist (as we did) social norms, and rules, except for them, it will be to bully or hurt LGB people. There comes a time when any movement should ask themselves whether they've achieved their goals, and whether the new goals are doing more harm than good. (Yes, I removed the T from LGBT because I don't see them as being the same movements)

Mental health is a complicated area, and I suspect most of it is would disappear should homosexuality be accepted, and those MH issues that don't, are connected to something else entirely.

Eastern Europe has a very different range of cultures, and weren't part of the same social change that Western Europe or the US experienced. This thread was referring to UK/Ireland.

Again the improved conditions of life for LGBT people did not come out of nowhere. You seem to think society just changed its mind with no campaigning, no groups doing the work, noone doing work to influence societal thinking, noone doing work to lessen the bullying. Of course there is still a need for all of this work because there are still very many problems faced by LGBT young people.

I think we need to acknowledge that hard won rights and social progress can move backwards and so Poland/Hungary are very relevant. Attacks and regression on human rights can happen anywhere.

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

Again the improved conditions of life for LGBT people did not come out of nowhere. You seem to think society just changed its mind with no campaigning, no groups doing the work, noone doing work to influence societal thinking, noone doing work to lessen the bullying.

You really don't need to assume what I think.. I'm perfectly happy to say what that is. I know that the changes didn't come out of nowhere. I know many people who were very active on both the national and local levels to bring about those changes, in addition to meeting many activists abroad, when I went to various events, including Pride.

Nowhere in my previous posts have I dismissed/diminished those who sought social change.

Of course there is still a need for all of this work because there are still very many problems faced by LGBT young people.

Yes, there are. And there always will be, since life and social change bring about changes with unforeseen consequences and they'll need addressing.

I think we need to acknowledge that hard won rights and social progress can move backwards and so Poland/Hungary are very relevant. Attacks and regression on human rights can happen anywhere.

Sure, although, again.. my previous posts were in relation to Ireland/UK as opposed to Eastern Europe which has a different history.

You're seeking something that isn't in my posts. There is no desire to diminish the activism of the past. The question is whether the activism of the present is different from what went before, and whether it's doing more harm than good... In the case of this thread, and the activism in schools.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

the activism in schools.

So what exactly are you saying about activism in schools?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So what exactly are you saying about activism in schools?

In my OP.

Deleted User wrote:

These initiatives just seem to reinforce differences rather than seek a society where these things aren't special or noteworthy.