Ofsted boss warns ‘militant’ activism in schools is a threat to education

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

Whatever.

You refuse to consider your own previous posts, and the manner in which you responded to mine. That statement has relevance considering what was previously written, and what you sought to twist to score points.

I've no interest wrangling with you over this.

I'm still trying to understand why you have a problem with other people who choose to bring attention on their sexuality, and what kind of stuff about love or relationships are OK to be covered in schools.

You're right to say that things are broadly improving in schools and in society at large, but we're still a long way your goal where sexuality is just not an issue.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm still trying to understand why you have a problem with other people who choose to bring attention on their sexuality

For the last time. You said that... not me. [although my last answer below should cover such a statement]

, and what kind of stuff about love or relationships are OK to be covered in schools.

That's new. Haven't said anything about that at all.

You're right to say that things are broadly improving in schools and in society at large, but we're still a long way your goal where sexuality is just not an issue.

Ahh well, I think we'd be a lot closer to such a goal if the activists didn't seek to draw attention to sexuality and identity so much. Give society and schools some breathing room to accept the new reality that homosexuality is accepted now, before jumping in with everything else, like trans issues.

Most of these activists (from what I've read anyway) don't seem to want anything to become normalised, and instead have latched on to concepts like gender fluidity, and other similar ideas in the push for individuals rights. Each new movement becomes more aggressive and in peoples faces, than the movement before them.

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, if we're talking about what it was like to be gay in school.. I suspect I'm somewhat older than you, and Ireland was far less tolerant of people being gay. Physical violence, not simply bullying was pretty common towards anyone perceived as being gay (regardless of whether they were or not). There was/is a very strong condition with heterosexual males (and females to a lesser degree) of fear towards homosexuals, and that generally manifested in horrible behavior. I was always more feminine than masculine in my mannerisms, and not terribly interested in the "lad" culture that went on in my midlands town. Without that interest, I was firmly outside most of the groups, and so, became a target for all manner of remarks, and attitudes, which was compounded by the suspicion that I might be gay. The young/teen culture I grew up in was very role orientated. Similar to the US with their football and cheerleader setup, in my town, there were the sporty GAA people, the beautiful/cool crowd, the nerds, etc... and then, there were those few who didn't fit in, and were abused for it.

So, I completely understand what you're referring to.



Secondary school for me was hell, and I have very few fond memories from that whole time. However, from what I gather from younger friends, family members, and teacher friends, the situation in most schools has changed considerably with a gradual thawing of the contempt towards gay people. Not complete acceptance, but a definite improvement over what went before.

And that's the point really. As homosexuality became more acceptable within mainstream society, it led to less approval for the behaviors that sought to bully, humiliate or punish those who were gay. It's not perfect by any means, but there's noticeable improvement in attitudes towards gay people. When I was finishing secondary school, a gay guy could easily be jumped on and beaten up when leaving a pub, simply because that group of semi-drunk frustrated guys felt like it. Now, there's none of that. Oh sure, there's the odd ignorant comment, and possibly a few insults, but the violence has largely disappeared.

That is what inclusivity means for me. General acceptance, whereby I, or others can be openly gay, and can get on with their lives, without the attitudes of others wanting to humiliate or punish those who are gay.



Ahh well, I see a difference between Woke/PC culture, and the movement to provide rights and acceptance for Gay people. I know many people who campaigned for Gay rights.. and they're not woke or PC. They have absolutely no interest in any of that, and would generally be disapproving of the attitudes associated with the woke movements... but then, they'd also be disapproving of the more aggressive elements of Gay rights movements. As would I.



Exactly. The same as would be for a heterosexual person. And I do believe we are heading in that direction (not there yet, but considering how short a time has gone by for all this to happen, I'm rather impressed). I can see the changes in society, compared to hostile world I grew up in.



Agreed. However, just as with employment unions, there comes a time when the organisation or associations that brought about so much positive change, starts to effect negative change just to stay relevant. That's a danger.

You see, for me, I feel that (in most western nations) gay rights has been achieved. Social change has reached the point where we're pretty much accepted in most situations, and while some people will continue to be uncomfortable (or hostile) with gay people, it takes time for those people to adjust or die off. The foundation for complete acceptance of homosexual people has been laid.. and society just needs some time to catch up.

All that societal acceptance didnt just happen out of nowhere. Schools are much more accepting and tolerant places precisely because of the work by organisations like BeLonG To and Shoutout and indeed many other LGBT Rights organisations. No reason why that work shouldnt continue. Many young LGBT people still struggle; with bullying, mental health etc. As we can also see in Poland and Hungary there can also be regressive steps backwards on these issues too and attempting to demonise LGBT people in pretty sick political rhetoric.

zom

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

...we're still a long way your goal where sexuality is just not an issue.

Even in highly civilized and developed countries this is a shock for some:

https://meaww.com/viral-video-shows-woman-traumatized-after-a-man-walked-around-exposing-penis-at-women-spa

Canada still long way behind:

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/barbara-kay-the-complicated-truth-about-transwomen-in-womens-prisons

Annasopra

zom wrote: »

Even in highly civilized and developed countries this is a shock for some:

https://meaww.com/viral-video-shows-woman-traumatized-after-a-man-walked-around-exposing-penis-at-women-spa

Canada still long way behind:

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/barbara-kay-the-complicated-truth-about-transwomen-in-womens-prisons

Haha. Some drivel that nothing to do with the post you quoted.

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

All that societal acceptance didnt just happen out of nowhere. Schools are [/B]much more accepting and tolerant places precisely because of the work by organisations like BeLonG To and Shoutout and indeed many other LGBT Rights organisations. No reason why that work shouldnt continue. Many young LGBT people still struggle; with bullying, mental health etc.

And many LGB people will always struggle regardless of whether homosexuality is accepted by mainstream society, or not. Just as there will always be some people who resist (as we did) social norms, and rules, except for them, it will be to bully or hurt LGB people. There comes a time when any movement should ask themselves whether they've achieved their goals, and whether the new goals are doing more harm than good. (Yes, I removed the T from LGBT because I don't see them as being the same movements)

Mental health is a complicated area, and I suspect most of it is would disappear should homosexuality be accepted, and those MH issues that don't, are connected to something else entirely.

As we can also see in Poland and Hungary there can also be regressive steps backwards on these issues too and attempting to demonise LGBT people in pretty sick political rhetoric.

Eastern Europe has a very different range of cultures, and weren't part of the same social change that Western Europe or the US experienced. This thread was referring to UK/Ireland.

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And many LGB people will always struggle regardless of whether homosexuality is accepted by mainstream society, or not. Just as there will always be some people who resist (as we did) social norms, and rules, except for them, it will be to bully or hurt LGB people. There comes a time when any movement should ask themselves whether they've achieved their goals, and whether the new goals are doing more harm than good. (Yes, I removed the T from LGBT because I don't see them as being the same movements)

Mental health is a complicated area, and I suspect most of it is would disappear should homosexuality be accepted, and those MH issues that don't, are connected to something else entirely.

Eastern Europe has a very different range of cultures, and weren't part of the same social change that Western Europe or the US experienced. This thread was referring to UK/Ireland.

Again the improved conditions of life for LGBT people did not come out of nowhere. You seem to think society just changed its mind with no campaigning, no groups doing the work, noone doing work to influence societal thinking, noone doing work to lessen the bullying. Of course there is still a need for all of this work because there are still very many problems faced by LGBT young people.

I think we need to acknowledge that hard won rights and social progress can move backwards and so Poland/Hungary are very relevant. Attacks and regression on human rights can happen anywhere.

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

Again the improved conditions of life for LGBT people did not come out of nowhere. You seem to think society just changed its mind with no campaigning, no groups doing the work, noone doing work to influence societal thinking, noone doing work to lessen the bullying.

You really don't need to assume what I think.. I'm perfectly happy to say what that is. I know that the changes didn't come out of nowhere. I know many people who were very active on both the national and local levels to bring about those changes, in addition to meeting many activists abroad, when I went to various events, including Pride.

Nowhere in my previous posts have I dismissed/diminished those who sought social change.

Of course there is still a need for all of this work because there are still very many problems faced by LGBT young people.

Yes, there are. And there always will be, since life and social change bring about changes with unforeseen consequences and they'll need addressing.

I think we need to acknowledge that hard won rights and social progress can move backwards and so Poland/Hungary are very relevant. Attacks and regression on human rights can happen anywhere.

Sure, although, again.. my previous posts were in relation to Ireland/UK as opposed to Eastern Europe which has a different history.

You're seeking something that isn't in my posts. There is no desire to diminish the activism of the past. The question is whether the activism of the present is different from what went before, and whether it's doing more harm than good... In the case of this thread, and the activism in schools.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

the activism in schools.

So what exactly are you saying about activism in schools?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So what exactly are you saying about activism in schools?

In my OP.

Deleted User wrote:

These initiatives just seem to reinforce differences rather than seek a society where these things aren't special or noteworthy.

dublinman1990

Are the heads of Ofsted ideologically connected to the UK Tories or something? I really wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. I really don't see an issue with promoting values of decency, tolerance & respect to others among wider society. Could you imagine the uproar of those comments going towards schools located here in Ireland; it would have been all over the Irish media within a matter of hours.

One eyed Jack

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Are the heads of Ofsted ideologically connected to the UK Tories or something? I really wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. I really don't see an issue with promoting values of decency, tolerance & respect to others among wider society. Could you imagine the uproar of those comments going towards schools located here in Ireland; it would have been all over the Irish media within a matter of hours.

That’s all anyone can do though really, is imagine, because it doesn’t happen here to any great extent like it does in the UK where protesting outside of schools has become a major issue in the last few years. The closest it came to in Ireland really was this effort, which the media picked up on and tried to make a thing of it, but nobody apart from the few parents involved actually appeared to care really -


Parents vow to withdraw children from sex education class given by Catholic group


There were other minor protests about issues relating to school admissions and patronage, but that protest was specifically about a Catholic organisation being invited to deliver a relationships and sex education programme in the school, similar to protests about the relationships and sex education curriculum and programmes being delivered in schools in the UK.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

In my OP.

Still not clear - could you be more specific please?

Are you saying that;
- schools shouldn't talk about relationships and sexuality at all, or
- schools should only talk about straight relationships and sexuality, or
- something else?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Still not clear - could you be more specific please?

Are you saying that;
- schools shouldn't talk about relationships and sexuality at all, or
- schools should only talk about straight relationships and sexuality, or
- something else?

My statement is not about teaching sex education. Which I do believe they should. Absent all the agenda driven stuff. Stick to the science that's proven now, and when they're adults they can join in on all the speculation about sexuality that seems so common now.

My objection is about the agenda driven protesting since I feel it does nothing to normalise sexuality, instead to reinforce divisions, and encourage prejudice to exist. Each group advocating their cause wants their group to be protected and see's them as being disadvantaged.. as opposed to seeking an environment of equality and acceptance by all.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

My statement is not about teaching sex education. Which I do believe they should. Absent all the agenda driven stuff. Stick to the science that's proven now, and when they're adults they can join in on all the speculation about sexuality that seems so common now.

My objection is about the agenda driven protesting since I feel it does nothing to normalise sexuality, instead to reinforce divisions, and encourage prejudice to exist. Each group advocating their cause wants their group to be protected and see's them as being disadvantaged.. as opposed to seeking an environment of equality and acceptance by all.

Still not clear, tbf. Are you saying that they shouldn't mention homosexuality at all in schools?

The stuff that was reported this week in Irish schools wasn't exactly 'protesting'. It was celebrating, the exact opposite.

Annasopra

Deleted User wrote: »

My statement is not about teaching sex education. Which I do believe they should. Absent all the agenda driven stuff. Stick to the science that's proven now, and when they're adults they can join in on all the speculation about sexuality that seems so common now.

My objection is about the agenda driven protesting since I feel it does nothing to normalise sexuality, instead to reinforce divisions, and encourage prejudice to exist. Each group advocating their cause wants their group to be protected and see's them as being disadvantaged.. as opposed to seeking an environment of equality and acceptance by all.

So take out all the anti bullying and mental health campaigns despite the fact they are actively promoting tolerant inclusive schools and young people still need them which you even admitted yourself :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Still not clear, tbf. Are you saying that they shouldn't mention homosexuality at all in schools?

Where are you getting this from? Sexuality would mean providing students with the knowledge about all forms of sexuality.

The stuff that was reported this week in Irish schools wasn't exactly 'protesting'. It was celebrating, the exact opposite.

This thread was based on the article in the OP, no?

Annasopra wrote: »

So take out all the anti bullying and mental health campaigns despite the fact they are actively promoting tolerant inclusive schools and young people still need them which you even admitted yourself :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Where are you getting this from? Jesus, you really do make some leaps in logic.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: right back at you. Thanks for throwing in things that I didn't say... but then, that seems to be pretty common with you.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

Where are you getting this from? Sexuality would mean providing students with the knowledge about all forms of sexuality.

I'm asking the question, because you've avoided giving a clear position.

Are you saying that schools should not mention homosexuality?

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread was based on the article in the OP, no?

So your concern is about the protests outside the gate, not about what the teachers are doing inside the schools?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm asking the question, because you've avoided giving a clear position.

Are you saying that schools should not mention homosexuality?

No, I am not saying that. I have never said that. Nor did I suggest that they not discuss any form of sexuality/sexual orientation. I didn't even hint at such a thing. And yet, you have repeatedly asked me that question as if I had.

So your concern is about the protests outside the gate, not about what the teachers are doing inside the schools?

Both. Teachers should be leaving any agenda/ideological driven ideas outside the classroom. I see no problem with teaching the biological/scientific aspects of sexuality. If teachers want to change what is taught, there are avenues to suggest that within the administrative part of the school system.

jmayo

Calahonda52 wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jun/24/ofsted-boss-warns-militant-activism-in-schools-is-a-threat-to-education

Just wonder how much of that we see here, my lot are all done so not my rodeo.
A lot of food for thought in the article

..."The head of the schools watchdog in England has denounced a “militant” new brand of activism in school communities, which she warned was leading to confrontation within and outside the school gates and having a potentially limiting effect on education.

.

The thing is the likes of the guardian isn't concerned about militantism in school, just the kind they don't agree with.

In other words don't be militant about anti immigration, but be militant about pro immigration.
Don't be militant about stopping self identification of gender , but be militant pro self identification.
Don't be militant against trans women competing against women in sport, but be all for the Luarel Hubbards of this world.

fvp4 wrote: »

Well to be fair the devices themselves are not that big of a drain of resources. The data centres maybe.

Where the does all that lithium used in all those devices batteries and the batteries of the greenies love in, the electric car, come from ?

Australia does it from ore, but in Chile and Argentina the lithium is extracted from salt deserts or salars. Saltwater from underground lakes is brought to the surface and evaporated in large basins to eventually leave lithium.
Anyone any idea what that is doing to environment in those areas?

Then what about nickel, manganese, and cobalt?
Cobalt is 90% of the time a byproduct of copper or nickel production and most of the worlds cobalt comes from Democratic Republic of Congo, not exactly one of the most stable entities in the world.
Manganese primarily comes from South Africa.

Then in case anyone forgets all of these devices and indeed the electric is full of plastics.
And what is plastic made from again ?