Russia - threadbanned users in OP

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118312172#Comment_118312172

Compared to Russia and China...I do, yes. Afraid I must cry off on a discussion about it. I really don't want to get into a run down of the USs flaws here (which would no doubt follow). I want to get some sleep!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118312332#Comment_118312332

haha... no. Comparing to Russia or China means absolutely nothing. How comparing the US to Ireland or Germany? In terms of free and open societies...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118312193#Comment_118312193

America faced plenty of consequences for its misadventure in Iraq.

Really? What? And no... not the body bags, costs, or whatever that came about from the campaign and occupation itself.

Not disagreeing with the rest of your post, although I'd say there's a lot more of the stick involved, due to the bullying that the US has engaged in economically, and the preferential treatment in supplying weapons to various nations. The US has played due to their own interests dropping friendships when they were no longer convenient, and propping up incredibly awful regimes when it suited their agenda. They're a superpower... and most countries recognise that... They're not the good guys that Hollywood loves to show, but rather the largest economic/military power, and other countries will play ball or be squashed.

Oh.. and Russia/India have been close for a rather long time. China and Russia is more a friendship of convenience. The racism towards Asians that is common in Russia would never allow any serious friendships between these two countries, and the Chinese are never reliable.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118312607#Comment_118312607

What would be the point of that?

Discussion is or was about Russia. It is you and others who drag the US (and I think it's mainly the US people are talking about when they refer to "the West" or to "NATO") into this to compare US actions as a world power to Russia's, and use US actions to explain or to excuse Russia's current behaviour. Now we should go even more off topic and compare US society disfavourably with this country and Germany. Maybe we should rename the thread.

I referred to US above as free and open to refute one specific point in the original post I replied to. The only kinds "freedom/openness" that mattered for that point (which allows autocratic states to interfere in public opinion, workings of democratic machinery & running of the US while reverse is far harder) do exist.

America faced plenty of consequences for its misadventure in Iraq.

Really? What? And no... not the body bags, costs, or whatever that came about from the campaign and occupation itself.

Well, it certainly hasn't done the US any good at all and they achieved very few of their original aims (Saddam and his regime is gone, that's about it), but the harm was self inflicted and even predicted by some beforehand so not consequences imposed by others.

BluePlanet

The US didn't really suffer any consequences of the Iraq war. If there were consequences they certainly haven't stopped them from advocating for a similar policy of regime change by force of arms.

The US gov didn't suffer, but plenty of veterans did. 😡 Militaristic governments are not just a threat to us and to each other, but to their own people.

Gatling

Seen several social media posts suggesting Belarus is preparing for a move out of the swift banking system , which is odd but it was previously called for when russia originally invaded Ukraine several years ago ,it would financially strangle Russia which makes Belarus preparing for an eventually being kicked out of the swift system really odd unless they are going all in with Putin in Ukraine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320203#Comment_118320203

The point is a sense of verification for your claim.... and simply reinforces my point earlier about double standards being applied.

The US is the most likely comparison to be made with Russia for all manner of reasons. In any case, I'm not going to repeat points I made earlier when you objected before to my bringing up countries other than Russia into the discussion.

Don't want to discuss it, fine.

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321691#Comment_118321691

Well there have been calls for Belarus to be disallowed by SWIFT.

MoscowTimes has a piece on it: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/12/14/belarus-banks-readying-for-swift-shutdown-reports-a75808

Personally I am not a fan of western countries weaponizing SWIFT and am supportive of countries to implement alternatives. Capitalism is supposed to welcome competition, right?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118325511#Comment_118325511

This isn't about capitalism or competition this is trying to deter russia and it's satellite states like Belarus from trying to invade and occupy more of Ukraine , previous sanctions have failed ,the UN has utterly failed Ukraine even to the point of removing the term shotdown and shooting down of flight MH 17 to appease Putin ,

The only other option is war , Russia Will face sanctions but will also be the biggest supplier of fuels and natural gas to Europe , which gives them a huge say in Europe which defeats having sanctions ,if the EU and NATO don't stand up to Putin now it's safe to safe Ukraine and many of the Baltics states Will in fall to Russia in short time , were essentially saying sure let just sit back and allow Putin to occupy and oppress most of Europe

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326307#Comment_118326307

But Ukraine and Georgia are not 'most of Europe', not even close. The 2 are former Soviet Republics that basically didn't navigate their new independence very well and ended up making a right enemy of their bigger, dangerous, and bullying neighbour.

Still though, weaponizing SWIFT can only lead to a more fractured international banking environment.

Elmer Blooker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326307#Comment_118326307

If you live in Berlin or Munich and it’s minus 10 do you think anyone cares what heats their homes or where it comes from?

Who’s going to sit in the cold and have cold showers, eat cold food because they don’t like Putin?

The world doesn’t operate like that, did anyone ever ask where fuel comes from when they top up their tank? NO!

No one cares, all people want is a reliable and relatively cheap source of energy.

Let the US supply Europe with LNG, what are they waiting for?

Stanley 1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321691#Comment_118321691

Lukachenko and Belarus will do as they are told, rigged elections is supported by Putin's muscle, Putin needs his pipelines to remain open, otherwise he cannot support pensions etc., back home, his people are virtually running the joint for some time now.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326352#Comment_118326352

It stated with Georgia , Ukraine ,they tested the waters in Moldova ,the rest such as Poland,lativa, Lithuania, Romania will also be targeted ,it's happening in Serbia too , Putin supporting and pushing for breakaways so he can influence countries away from the EU,this isn't about a landgrab Putin wants the old Soviet Union back , Europe has moved on over the last 30 years,grew economically and in governance ,all while cutting back on military budgets and now Putin is gearing up for war ,a and what do we have to fight with sanctions targeting a few henchmen ,

The only tool in the box is the swift banking system ,and asset sizures across Europe , suspend russian companies from operating in Europe ,

Or we have a massive military build up and rapid increases in defence budgets and face Putin militarily ,

I'd rather we use the swift system than soldiers but if Europe doesn't act now with unity and we face years of either another cold war or an actual war

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326834#Comment_118326834

I reckon give it time and Lukachenko will announce Belarus is returning to Russia

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327007#Comment_118327007

I'm glad i don't view the world through similar paranoid eyes.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327221#Comment_118327221

Unfortunately I don't have your beliefs ,and everything that has happened from Georgia to Ukraine was all predicted correctly ,

But yes it's all conspiracy

I remember several well known posters telling us all about mass graves and Genocide being committed by the football houilgans holding off the Russian army in Ukraine

Russia has proposed a treaty / listed its demands:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59696450

victor8600

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327059#Comment_118327059

Nope. There is one and the only thing Lukashenko values more than his or anyone's life. It's power. in the 1990s, he wanted to be the ruler of Russia, by trying to share power in the Russia-Belarus union with Eltsin first and then he would had take over the ailing drunk Russian president. This cunning plan did not work out with a certain Vladimir pushing Lukashenko aside and out of the Russian politics. Thus Lukashenko has to contend with being the head honcho in a smaller country, but this power is so precious to him, he would never, never give up even a shred of it. "Returning to Russia" would mean a huge loss of power to him, and thus is an absolute nonsense.

Dohnjoe

Well, the Kremlin has produced it's list of demands, so as predicted it was about ramping up tensions to get concessions. If its ignored they are threatening a 1963 Cuban missile style crisis. The demands are flat-out ridiculous. They know they'll be rejected so it's a bit like a kid asking for 50 quid to get 10 quid. Also sounds like it's mainly to play themselves as a victim for the homegrown audience.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327059#Comment_118327059

There is precisely 0% chance of that happening. Literally zero.

If you think Lukashenko would do such a thing you're away with the fairies. He'd go to war first.

There's been plenty of tension between himself and Putin over the years. They met earlier this year and the Black Sea almost froze over such was the frostiness.

If Belarus was to ever be reabsorbed back into Russia, it'll be when Lukashenko is pushing up the daisies.

Kermit.de.frog

From the FT

Under the draft proposals, Nato would have to seek consent from Moscow to deploy troops in former Communist countries in Europe that joined Nato in May 1997.

Gatling

So no NATO excercises near Russia ,no NATO ships in the blacksea ,recind invites to Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO ,no NATO flights near Russian territory,a seat at EU table and more vetoes ,no NATO or foreign troops on former russian controlled states .

So what is russia giving up in return absolutely nothing

Putin needs to be given a very public slap in the face

igCorcaigh

Seems a fair request to me. Military activity by NATO on your border could be perceived as threatening, no?

The free will of a country like Ukraine does not matter to Russia; the result is the same: a threat to the security of Russia.

And NATO dismisses that!

Russia said on Friday it wanted a legally binding guarantee that NATO would give up any military activity in Eastern Europe and Ukraine

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20211218-russia-demands-us-nato-curtail-activity-in-east-europe-to-defuse-ukraine-crisis?ref=tw

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344421#Comment_118344421

So what get rid of NATO ,and then tell countries primarily in Eastern Europe and the Baltics to disaband their militaries because , Russia with its massive nuclear arsenal and other weapons ,feels threatened by them even though they are no threat to Russia in any which way

igCorcaigh

It would all have to be part of a bigger agreement that respects all security concerns...

That's the problem though. This should be an regional/internal problem, not a big geopolitical faultline, but geography is destiny.

Selenophile

@"So what is russia giving up in return absolutely nothing"

That BBC article doesn't really tells the whole Russian proposal. Russians propose security pact where both sides would remove their missiles from close proximity of the other side. While there are no Russian installations near American borders, I believe the wording of the document applies to submarines and strategic bombers, and there is also Russian far East near Alaska.

Judging by the commentary from the West so far, their proposal will be refused, so I guess we can expect a massive deployment of intermediate - range missiles in Europe on both sides of this conflict. That's the long-term best case scenario.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344671#Comment_118344671

This is true ,but it seems to be completely one sided in Russia's favour ,it's the same as wanting a say in What and how the EU does things ,

How about russia removes it's troops and equipment from Ukraine and allows Ukraine to make it's own decisions on it's destiny ,

It's all give us what we want in Moscow or else

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118338916#Comment_118338916

We already have the russian airforce patrolling the skies over Belarus , they have russian advisors on the ground ,and lukashenko himself has stated he's willing to allow Russian nuclear weapons to deployed in Belarus , while reminding everyone that he's kept Soviet era military infrastructure in place and active ,if putin wanted to he can take lukashenko out of the picture all together ,the biggest issue is the people don't want that lukashenko or putin running the show

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344506#Comment_118344506

Russia doesn't want NATO extending on to their borders, which is what would happen as Ukraine received more support from Western nations, especially that of the US. They want an end to NATO activities, not the end of an independent army in Ukraine.

I suspect you could get the guarantee of Ukrainian independence easily enough if Russia received a guarantee themselves, that Ukraine (or similar states) would never become a member of NATO, and/or never be used to house US military assets of any kind.

The threat isn't from these states. The threat to Russia is further establishment of US forces closer to their main population centers. A reasonable enough fear, all things considered.

It's all give us what we want in Moscow or else

Not quite since they've engaged in plenty of international diplomacy and agreements in the past... and while I know you don't want to hear it, they're also following the stance that the US has performed in the past. The US isn't shy about putting it's own military forward to reinforce their demands.