Russia - threadbanned users in OP

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954089#Comment_118954089

Thanks for the update Putin. And now back to Lavrov for the weather.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954106#Comment_118954106

How would you call it?

That Ukrainian ambassador to Germany is insufferable. Yes they aren't asking for stuff they are demanding stuff. And delivering heavy armament is an escalation.

How is calling a spade a spade a pro-putin line?

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954123#Comment_118954123

How is it a spade a spade?

Ukraine is rightly asking for help from its European nighbours to repel this absolutely disgustingly disgraceful war from an aggressor that is actively committing war crimes.

goldenmick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954056#Comment_118954056

I take it the Conspiracy forum is quiet then, Fritti.

There's more to Germany's reluctance than meets the eye, and your comment that they would be "dragged step by step into a war with Russia" is ridiculous when all the other European nations are already doing their bit.

Sure it has the potential for nuclear escalation, but that will be the case whether or not Germany provides more. Putin has a warped mind and an equally warped view of how the world should revolve around Russian demands. His swift fall from grace is the greatest danger to nuclear action as his arrogance and sense of importance may lead him to give the world a few parting shots. We shall see.

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954131#Comment_118954131

You were asking how it was an escalation and how 'demands'. From Germany's viewpoint it is an escalation. And yes the tone of that ambassador is shocking, he is making demands. There is no other way of calling it.

The Ukrainian government has knowingly played with fire and is dragging their country into the abyss. And now they want to drag Europe if not the whole world down with them. If the German chancellor shows a little restraint then that little restraint should be welcomed. Precious little sense is left in the current discourse.

Not directed at you in particular but the infantile world view shown in this thread is shocking.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118953965#Comment_118953965

Scholz has to prove that he is not compromised or ideological leaning to Putin.

He certainly isn't concerned about Germany or the EU.

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954169#Comment_118954169

Ah yes, Ukraine played with fire by not just letting a blood thirsty maniac steal their country and enslave their citizens.

The Ukrainian government did not drab their country into the abyss. That was Putin and his war machine.

All other viewpoints are illogical.

Northernlily

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118953987#Comment_118953987

Nefarious whisperings in his ear from Moscow is not a far reach. Needs to go.

ronivek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954013#Comment_118954013

The most recent poll I could find shows:

• 55% in favour of Germany sending heavier weapons to Ukraine.
• 37% against Germany sending heavier weapons to Ukraine.

As far as I can tell the political support for the government coalition has remained more or less steady; and likewise support for Scholz's party.

So I think it's probably safe to assume it's not really a massive deal with the German public; or certainly not to the extent that Scholz is likely to care about public opinion to any significant degree.

Incidentally I don't know why that Bild article is really news; it has been pretty clear Scholz will not allow German heavy weapons to be supplied to Ukraine and feels zero urgency to increase support.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118953490#Comment_118953490

And to think they are considered bad guys by some

The German actual nazis in WW2 had an overall kill ratio of 2 to 1. For every one of them killed they took two Allied soldiers with them. Much higher in theatres like Russia, figures like 5 to 1 and even higher have been bandied about. They captured over five million Russian troops, murdered many more and in the air it was such a one sided affair that many of the German fighter pilots had PTSD over the sheer bloody slaughter involved. After D Day it took the combined effort of the Western allies and all their might a year to travel just 600 miles, 900 in new money, to Berlin to cut the head off the snake, and they were fighting the Soviets in the east who got there first and Allied attacks from the south in Italy and Greece; out manned, out gunned, surrounded, bombarded day and night.

Were those murderous bastards in thrall to a twisted regime "absolute legends" too? I seriously doubt you would say so. I know you wouldn't.

That is NOT to say that the Ukrainian defenders are like the German nazi's, but merely to illustrate just how easy it is to be so bloody simplistic when "our" side is fighting "orcs"? I remain in the opinion that anyone not fighting in Ukraine using the term "orcs" is.. No, best not continue on that tack... All nuance and complexity goes straight out the fúcking window in service to the distraction and cause de jour on keyboards the world over. Like I noted earlier; for years Western media, governments, NGO's and the UN have been concerned about Far Right elements and their influence in Ukraine. Massively over egging it in my opinion, just like putin(though unlike him over the all too usual Western moral panic about such things). And yet within the space of weeks, the same media, governments, NGO's and UN seem to have caught a bad case of mass amnesia and are now talking about relevance and complexities.

And we wonder how average Russians are so easily convinced and led, when the complexities around this conflict, even the country of Ukraine itself would be hard to pin down for the vast majority on a map over last Christmas dinner a few months ago? The Russians at least have some "excuse". They've been born and live in a censored autocratic state where any deviation from putin's twisted narrative is censured, or worse. What's our excuse to be so simplistic and jingoistic?

Them versus Us, can be bloody useful and advantageous, but only when we are free to question the whys of Them versus Us. The second we lose that, we become more like Them and that's not good. At all.

BorneTobyWilde

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pePCZEHe-xg

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118953949#Comment_118953949

That could all very well be true, but to be honest with you I'm starting to wonder if Putin's OK with a long, protracted war in Ukraine. Such a scenario would create a necessity of sorts to decouple Russia from the West both economically and culturally, and what if this is what Putin has wanted to do for years? How much pain is he willing to go through to achieve that and this new world order he has spoken of with Xi? It's what 1984 talked about - perpetual war as a tool. Using it to sow hatred of the enemy, devotion to the state, deciding what is true and what is false.

And meanwhile he can just continue to wreck Ukraine. Maybe not take it over, but lob missiles all over the shop, stop economic development, and make it impossible to join the EU or NATO (despite all the pronouncements of partnership and friendship, neither bloc will accept Ukraine while it is literally being invaded by Russia).

ronivek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954246#Comment_118954246

I mean when you start talking about "far right problems" they have to be put into context and assessed with a little perspective. Some Azov members have espoused neo-Nazi views, some have brandished Nazi symbology, etc. This is also happening in Western armies and NATO members; so it's hardly some sort of unique phenomenon.

In a democratic Ukraine with ambitions to join NATO and the EU it was naturally one of the perceived barriers to that process. Particularly in light of other far right movements across the West and concerns about same.

In the context of a Ukraine defending itself from a military invasion by an arguable bona fide fascist state I think displaying some neo-Nazi symbology or showing some extremely nationalist tendencies is pretty far down the totem pole of "things to be concerned about in Ukraine".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118953834#Comment_118953834

the biggest problem in years to come in educated coutries will be population decline, which makes this war even more stupid. It might not be as big of a problem in the EU because we have constant immigration coming in but in nationalistic countries like China and Russia thats not the case

Kermit.de.frog

Germany's position appears to be strategically sensible to me.

Ukraine is facing a quick defeat now and the best they can hope for is Putin drawing a line over Luhansk and Donetsk. The west was lulled in to false sense of security over initial Russian failures coupled with Ukrainian successful propaganda.

The reality facing Ukraine now is really, really stark.

Maybe more people will start understanding why certain countries were always highly reluctant. They've known the outcome here since the beginning.

We can have all the sympathy in the world but a successful medium term defence was never a remote possibility.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954293#Comment_118954293

It would certainly explain his persistence with the war, but it would also be risky. This is no low level localised conflict with occasional skirmishes at the border, but a full on war between two large European countries. The same analysts think Ukraine is going to launch a major counter offensive in the East soon enough - whether Putin will be able to handle that is anyone's guess.

Gatling

@Kermit.de.frog Ukraine is facing a quick defeat now and the best they can hope for is Putin drawing a line over Luhansk and Donetsk. .

You must be the only one with that opinion

auspicious

North Africa and Middle East need Ukrainian wheat. The longer this war persists the more desperate these regions will become in the coming future.

Russia won't stop. One side has to.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954408#Comment_118954408

Highly doubtful.

gandalf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954393#Comment_118954393

I disagree wholeheartedly with you. Nothing suggests a quick defeat at all. Given the shambles that the Russian military have presented so far I don't see anything to suggest they are capable of winning this fight. If they carry on in the same vein I can see a catastrophic defeat on the cards especially if they have an artificial deadline of the 9th of may to get a win for Putin.

I suspect that the Russians have threatened the Germans with turning off the gas if they provide heavy weapons and the Germans have blinked.

Russia have been shown up as the biggest military bullshitters in the world. They're great when it's an uneven fight or against civilians but put them up against an organised, motivated, intelligent and reasonably well armed foe and they cannot cope.

archer22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954246#Comment_118954246

I don't know, but one thing I am sure of, I would rather have lived under Hitler than under Stalin any day.

And thats an opinion shared by many East Europeans that I worked with whose parents and grandparents experienced life under both of those regimes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954421#Comment_118954421

general consensus is that will be anything but quick. Most likely will turn into a forever war with Russia never taking full control, but at the same time never able to push further into Ukraine, and that eastern region just turning into a wasteland

with Finland joining NATO which effectively means Putin has lost (if losing is defined as being in a worse position afterwards than was the case before)

maebee

@CalamariFritti

"The Ukrainian government have let themselves being made a pawn by the US and now they try to drag the world into WW3. This has to stop before its too late"

Can you please explain to me how the country which has been invaded by a hostile neighbour (who has threatened nuclear war on the whole world) is trying to drag the world into a WW3? Your "This has to stop before its too late" is a message that should be sent to the war monger in the Kremlin. Victim blaming at its finest.

gandalf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954411#Comment_118954411

If Ukraine stops fighting it ceases to exist, if Russia stop fighting the war ends.

Patser

https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1516878733902323719?s=20&t=_WvinFXAqAaXmEI0AyskQg

Hope this isn't bad news for anyone over here, when you look at the sticker in the 2nd photo

Big Ears

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954411#Comment_118954411

So Ukraine should surrender it's country (and national identity) to Russia to prevent World hunger ?

Ukraine drove them from the North once they were armed well enough. Keep supplying them with heavy weoponary and it might be surprising what they can manage to do. They're much better trained, and motivated than their Russian counterparts and it's shown so far.

Dohnjoe

Obviously doesn't destroy the tank but causes damage and the crew has to bail. These can be attached to slightly modified store bought drones I believe.

https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1516860518870523905

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954393#Comment_118954393

Never a remote possibility? You should tell the Ukrainians that.

They've pushed the invaders from the North. They've held onto the capital. The west seems more or less secure.

Russia's three day war is now a fair bit longer.... Huge casualties and mega loss of equipment.

Germany position (or the chancellors anyhow) seems to be stab Ukraine in the back to appease Putin.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954169#Comment_118954169

Germany went to war with THE WORLD , twice!

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118954393#Comment_118954393

Okay. How quick will this defeat be and in what form? Flesh it out with some proper details, what time frame are we looking at.