Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Dohnjoe

https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/1518519413808500736

Dubh Geannain

I don't expect anyone will be trying to evacuate at this stage. It would actually do the Russians a favour if they let everyone leave so that they can claim the city (what's left of it) in it entirety. But no doubt the announcement is in poor faith anyway.

https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPR/status/1518551336442380288?s=20&t=pbrx242Kl3MRAnNLmhN1dA

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970334#Comment_118970334

Never forget how many real hardline Nazis were Austrian.

The Waffen SS was full of them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118962469#Comment_118962469

Absolute bullshyte and shows complete lack of knowledge of history.

The amount of Nazis that faced justice for their crimes was miniscule.

Some people put the figure as high as 200,000 for the number of Nazi era criminals that committed war crimes.

Don't ever assume they were all Germans or even Austrians.

They included ones from all over Europe including France, Belgium, Romania, Italy, Ukraine, Yugoslavia, etc.

Between 1945 and 2005, 140,000 cases were brought resulting in only 6,656 convictions.

And fook all of those ended in long sentences never mind death sentences.

The Germans did shag all until recent years where they now go after some old SS guards.

Of the hundreds of thousands in the SS or Waffen SS, fook all of them saw justice.

Of the more than 3,000 in the death squads of the Einsatzgruppen fook all saw justice.

28 senior leaders were tried with something like 18 death sentences.

A lot went back to their old jobs as police officers in the new West Germany and out of the 3,000 plus only about a 100 members were ever tried.

This is why I laugh when I hear people announcing that we will bring all those scumbag Russians to justice for their crimes.

It has been proven to be absolute bullshyte time and again that war criminals face justice.

Oh yes a few high profile ones may see justice, but most just go back to their old lives to see out their days.

EltonJohn69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973183#Comment_118973183

https://youtu.be/e7XLyDtwEHE

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973255#Comment_118973255

That is verbatim how the link was originally worded, I think someone picked up on the mistake and changed it post facto.

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973598#Comment_118973598

I didn't see that. But ok.

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118972949#Comment_118972949

Considering that Ireland is at the bottom of the global list of countries with regard to military size, I'd fcuking well hope they'd give more than Ireland. For that and some other fairly good economic, strategic and historical reasons

everlast75

https://twitter.com/ralakbar/status/1517652714276147200?s=20&t=V7XZtqjaoHwIS694nLWiYQ

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973531#Comment_118973531

After Germany were welcomed into Austria, at a stage when the Germans were still playing for optics internationally, the German high command were themselves shocked at the public outpouring and open murderous actions of Austrians towards their Jewish population.

And as you correctly noted bugger all nazis faced justice in the post war world. The German business world that had supported and bankrolled Hitler were almost entirely left alone. Well, politics again. The Allies were now looking down the barrel of a new threat the Soviets and wanted, needed Germany as a buffer and that meant after some show trials and bluster it went back to business as usual and denazification went away. They were our friends again. Even the Holocaust was sidelined and ignored. Belson was the one horror that stood out for a generation of Europeans, the rest lay behind the Iron Curtain largely forgotten and the whole picture was left murky. The first academic study into the Final Solution didn't come along until the 1960's in the US and couldn't get a publisher. It only got privately published because a Jewish businessman put the money up.

The Soviets to their credit threw the nazis they had into gulags or executed them and after some initial picking of German scientists brains threw them out too. Unlike in the US where whole teams of ex nazis helped their aerospace industries and Werner Von Braun became a national hero fronting Disney flics on American progress.

As one Jewish American entertainer sang as man walked on the moon:

Gather round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun,

A man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience.

Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown.

"Ha, Nazi Schmazi," says Wernher von Braun.

Don't say that he's hypocritical, Say rather that he's apolitical.

"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?

That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.

So yeah we love t9o think otherwise, because the truth is far more awful and it can be remarkably easy for war criminals to get away with it, even prosper afterwards. Same goes for autocratic dictators who murder thousands, even millions. Hitler was the outlier, most die in their beds of old age.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973754#Comment_118973754

And in some cases their families.

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118972993#Comment_118972993

Well, do you speak Ukrainian at the same level as she speaks English? Only this would give you a right to criticise her.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973761#Comment_118973761

Godwin's Law is "an Internet adage asserting that as an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a comparison to Nazis or Adolf Hitler approaches" (Wikipedia).

It seems to hold here, and many think it is a sign that one has lost the plot when the Nazi stuff is trotted out. Of course Vlad himself is a good example, but his critics fall into much the same trap. By all means criticise German or Austrian policies, but cut out the Nazi crap.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973795#Comment_118973795

Yessir!! #salutes 🙄

I know you think you're clever by trotting out Godwin, even googling the link to back your little cliche up, but we weren't talking about Germans or Austrians today, or Russians for that matter. We were talking about this naive notion posted earlier that Russian war criminals will face justice by pointing out examples from history where they didn't and how that's almost certainly going to be the case again. Do keep up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973795#Comment_118973795

Wibbs comment doesn't follow the Godwin Law (or Godwined) he didn't make any comparison in the comment you copied other than pointing out his historical opinion on actual Nazi's.

However, regardless, your point is moot in any case seeing (as you realise yourself) the whole war (sorry, special military operation) was on the pretext of denazificaiton. So, it's 100% relevant to this thread. Further, it's the Russian's carrying on like the Nazi's (German and Austrians) of WW2.

That's just facts I'm afriad.

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973822#Comment_118973822

Do not mention ze war!

Dohnjoe

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1518573840586182656

Detritus70

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118972914#Comment_118972914

And I responded that your observations are very odd to say the least and absolutely not typical for Germany. That's my experience and that others on this thread. You're trying to project an image of Germans that wouldn't cross the road to piss on you if you were on fire because there's a red light and it's utter nonsense. We actually have laws that permit you to break a red light in an emergency. 😉 That's what I can say from living in Germany from 1970 to 1994 and working in a bakery for a few years. The second part, people being a little bit more pushy in Ireland, stems from me living in Ennis, Limerick and Dublin between 1994 and 2016. I even did work in a bakery for a brief time, but that was in Bewley's manufacturing and not in the shop. I was on the road as an printer tech from 2000 to 2009 so I can write books about the crazy sh*t I saw then.

Sure, I get it, there's anti-German sentiment at the moment and people feel compelled to post scutter like Germany being a vassal state to Russia, etc, but let's have a look at the facts:

Germany has rendered €1.83 bn in financial aid since 2014, so for quite some time now. Certainly before this subject became a hot topic of deabte in Irish pubs. The EU has mad €17 bn in aid and credit available, €4 bn came from Germany. There has been more aid made available since this crisis unfolded, to the tune of €1.2 bn, 240 m came from Germany. Keeping in mind this artice is from February.

I don't agree with Scholtz on not sending weapons. No-one does. I completely agree with any criticism of that and the only Germans that agree with this decision are Reichsbürger, Neonazis and crazy people. But the recent development of several people on this thread trying very hard to paint Germany as some kind of Russian agent is nothing short of utter scutter. And they pretty much use the posting style reserved for Putin bots, Trump supporters, QAnon nutbags and other such human debris.

https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/ukraine-deutschland-hilfen-100.html

Also, don't forget Switzerland, who manufacture the ammo for the requested German tanks, have made it very clear that they don't want their product to be exported for the purpose of attacking Russia and this does bear further scrutiny:

https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/schweiz-verbietet-deutsche-weitergabe-von-munition-an-die-ukraine-100.html

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118973795#Comment_118973795

Did you seriously just raise "Godwin" in a thread about a war where the aggressor clearly and unambiguously said its aim was "denazification"?

Your post is the dumbest thing I have seen today, and that is saying something.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118970217#Comment_118970217

Wasn't going to reply, given I hadn't logged in for a while when I saw your reply earlier and thread moved on but may as well since people are still rabbiting on about (evils of) Germany (this is almost the Germany thread)...

Yes, I think I understand your point and Russia have something to lose (this applies to all of Russia's oil and gas trade in Europe, all of it is funneling money to Russia, it is one of the biggest trade sanctions left and Germany is the biggest piece of that - so key).

Putting Germany into same category as China and India is misleading at best.

Germany is in the EU. It agreed to, and imposes the EU sanctions on Russia. Germany agreed to and as largest contributor state provides a huge chunk of the EU aid fund to Ukraine. Germany ships weapons to Ukraine (even if one agrees it is not enough). Germany has voted against Russia at the UN.

Now do we need to compare with behaviour of China (neutral, but completely cynical and on side of Russia the so called "no limits" partner + now watching carefully what way the wind blows) or India (plain old self interested neutral)?

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118974252#Comment_118974252

No. I raised it (Godwin) because the criticisms of Germany seemed to be bringing up Nazi stuff. I said that Vlad was falling into the Godwin trap by accusing others (Ukrainians) of being Nazis. You appear to have misunderstood my point, so please withdraw the "dumbest thing" comment. I will gladly plead guilty to being unclear, but not to being dumb.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118974504#Comment_118974504

Have no problem with fair criticism (Germany == China/India is not this).

I haven't had a chance to read that paper I think you posted. I probably don't have expertise to dispute it anyway (not an economist) but my understanding is it is disputed.

So at the moment I only have my "feelings" to go on that Germanys energy supply is maybe not quite as elastic as they think it is in event Russia is shut out as a supplier immediately. That they are not considering all the secondary impacts of potential shortage of oil and gas (on Germany, and then rippling outward into the rest of the EU + not to mention effects on economies of other Russia dependent countries if this is an EU level embargo on oil and gas). Economic models are not (hard) science as such, economics is still a social science no matter how good they are at maths.

That's not to say maybe it should be done anyway (?for kinds of reasons you give) but let's not take it so lightly or assume the pain will be small. It's not like a Covid shutdown either in that it is (or must be assumed to be) permanent (assuming no politicial changes in Russia).

edit: Repeating myself (so boring...) but I don't think a European energy embargo will end the war either given what seems to be Putin's current committment to it in the face of everything. Putin has loads of old soviet weapons that still kill people and can pay his troops in globally worthless Russian currency and send them to the gulag or give them a bullet if they don't like it.

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118974129#Comment_118974129

And I responded to your bizarre whataboutery that experience (and as I detailed and in the published experiences of others) of that kind of behaviour is absolutely typical of many places in Germany.

Its very bizarre that you can write following your own criticisms of Ireland that "I don't mean this in an accusatory or judgemental way,". But rather than appreciate similar observations about Germany from others, you hillariously double down and go on an outright attack of how Ireland is the absolute worst, but conversely things like that in Germany are a 'pleasure'. In general in my experience Germans who I've met are absolute cnuts when it comes to queueing and elbowing others out of their way and yes there are some exceptions) And that's not to say Ireland is perfect but regards queueing poor behaviour is the exception not the rule. But more importantly before you chose to take offence at such observations, the discussion per the comment was relevant to Germanys reneging on its promises of military aid. And no I'm not going to bring In Switzerland or any other country into the discussion simply because you can dish it out plenty apparently, but utterly fail to take such observations in anything other than an "accusatory or judgemental way"

As for this

"the recent development of several people on this thread trying very hard to paint Germany as some kind of Russian agent is nothing short of utter scutter. And they pretty much use the posting style reserved for Putin bots, Trump supporters, QAnon nutbags and other such human debris."

No-one has painted Germany as a "Russian agent" (sic). Plenty of posters have been critical of Germanys failure to live up to its recent promises. I understand you don't like such criticism. But there you are.

As for the rest of it, I reckon you'd be best taking those type of observations straight to CT forum.

Detritus70

Someone's getting a bit antsy

Mecanudo

😅

Detritus70

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118974504#Comment_118974504

I am largely in agreement with you. I disagree slightly on the 1% drop in GDP, I regard that figure as a bit extractum ex asino. Many analysts are of a very different opinion. I find that assertion fancyfull to say the least.

https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/heilbronn/gas-russland-embargo-bew-umformtechnik-schwaebisch-hall-100.html

https://www.merkur.de/wirtschaft/habeck-notfallplan-russland-gas-ukraine-news-krieg-lieferung-zr-91444808.html

I do, however agree that oil, gas and coal from Russia must be boycotted NOW or even better 2 months ago. Yes, German energy policies have contributet to this mess. And I absolutely criticise the German government, they really dropped the ball and German standing has been damaged in the world. It's very sad and disappointing.

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118974345#Comment_118974345

Germany has ended up as an important part of the Russian war effort by stupidity of their energy policy and some smart strategic manoeuvring by Russia. I don’t subscribe to the Putin is a genius school of thought but he has played Germany like a fiddle over the last decade. Also Germany is a convenient scapegoat here. Other EU countries are happy to have Germany still importing Russian gas and not outbidding them for Norwegian gas or LNG on the wider energy market. You can hear the deafening silence of absent criticism from officials across the EU. They are happy to have Germany take all the criticism for importing Russian gas and saving their own supplies from being outbid by Gas hungry German industry. The Baltic states banned Russian gas but they didn’t ban gas imports from Germany.

Obviously Germany not in the same category of vocal support as China and India but arguably more important than both in terms of hard support in Russian eyes.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118974621#Comment_118974621

Logging out so I'll have a read of it later thanks. I think "Europe" (the East of it) has gotten big supplies of oil and gas from Russia back into the Soviet times. It's not something that began with Putin's regime, even if Germany's dependence got worse.

I assume & hope getting Germany and all the others off the Russian energy and other Russian natural resources is being worked on hard by those governments (it is maybe dependent on what the Western suppliers or their allies in ME can do).

I just think it is not going to be instant or as simple as you paint it or want it to be (and as added to post in an edit, I am doubtful it would end the war immediately given Putin's determination despite the damage being done to Russia). We all want this to stop now, and wish there was something that could do it.

yagan

Here's a thought, is Godwin's Law actually now meaningless because Denazification is being used as an excuse for invading another country and killing civilians?

Muahahaha

I wonder how difficult that would be to sabotage. There are a few countries there who would shed no tears to see that gas pipeline disabled so the war gets shortened.

corkie

https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/1600623/russia-news-druzhba-oil-pipeline-fire-ukraine-eu-energy-germany-austria-hungary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2OCnHOuV1s&t=99s

^^^ Big win for Ukraine! Putin's World's Longest Pipeline Oil Depot Destroyed After 'Ukraine Attack'