Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100296#Comment_119100296

reason for invading was to get back to the good old USSR days for starters and as collateral damage weaken the west/democracy’s while he is at it. He has said so himself in very clear language

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100410#Comment_119100410

I would give the UN credit for the evacuation of the Mariupol steel plant

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100553#Comment_119100553

They will also still have full sanctions against them and the likelihood of their energy pot shrinking as the EU unwinds its exposure.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100889#Comment_119100889

Putin is the one prolonging the war with ever reducing objectives. TBH I don't get this continuing condemnation of countries who are not starting wars in another country. Even if they did tomorrow whatever it is people demand of them, and it seems to be many things, Putin would still push on with his lunacy to the end. The solution is a Russian recognition that they will not win this and to deal with the world on that basis. That will not happen under Putin.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101051#Comment_119101051

This sounds a lot more like your own personal frustrations. They are doing these things even if you think you know better. The oil and gas moves take time. Ukraine has stated they don't plan to apply for NATO and if you understood the requirements of the EU accession process you'd be aware just how far off the criteria they are. As Macron said probably decades. Ukrainian intelligence in recent weeks have suggested August will be a key month and a likely end to all of this by year end.

sameoldname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101051#Comment_119101051

How does promising fast tracked entry to either Nato or the EU help the war end faster? You can't be at war and join the EU or Nato, so it's in Russia's interest not to end the war until all their objectives are achieved. (If they even can be achieved)

Also, if you include the cost of hosting refugees, I doubt American aid is actually anywhere near what Europe is spending.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100222#Comment_119100222

Russia got 12bn for its Wheat last year, food is deeply undervalued.

There would be a good argument to suggest that EU food policy for the last 20 years has been driven by Russia for its own strategic interests.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100889#Comment_119100889

China taking Taiwan would be the de-facto end of Pax Americana in the far-East and Pacific, one of the great strategic and foreign policy achievements - and something that actually benefits us all.

Just as there are blood hatreds and scabs in Eastern Europe that Putin wants to pick at, so too there is in Asia.

The US has long had a strategic ambiguity about Taiwan. But they may as well say what they mean at this stage, they won't allow Taiwan to fall and the Pacific Ocean to be a contested theatre with China causing havoc undoing all the gains for the region since WW2.

People may bristle at Team America World Police, but wait until you get a taste of People's Republic of China, Pacific Troublemakers. Bad news for us all.

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101051#Comment_119101051

Just on appeasement and I mentioned it here before the biggest and most egregious appeasers of world war 2 were Churchill, Roosevelt and Clement atlee. The way they abandoned Eastern Europe to Stalin and deported people in mass population transfers from Western Europe to a life in the gulags in the aftermath of world war 2 far outweighs the appeasement of chamberlain. Of course it was airbrushed from history. But we are paying for the actions of those men in the current war today. Appeasement never goes away it is ever present in time of war. And there will be major appeasement in the final settlement of this war you can be sure.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101051#Comment_119101051

Can NATO accept an application from a country that has a territorial dispute or does not fully control its borders?

is_that_so

The leader of the pro-Russian separatists in Donetsk has said that all prisoners of war from the Azovstal steel plant will be tried by a tribunal in the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic.

With a very fair "legal" process of course.

Hobgoblin11

https://t.me/hyevuy_dnepr/27577

Russian troops shelled Apostolove district of Dnipropetrovsk region with MLRS Uragan

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101084#Comment_119101084

That's a balanced post.

Another way to look at it is to wind the clock back to late 2021 and consider how the political, energy and security universe has changed in ways that would have been truly unfathomable at the time.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101143#Comment_119101143

Appeasement seems to be used when people don't like agreements. Problems with agreements tend to happen with untrustworthy partners with other agendas. The EU has appeased its members thousands of times with no ill effects In 1945 the aim was the end of the war, a far greater prize. Up to now with Russia it has been a reasonable geopolitical position as it has kept trade flowing and the world at peace. Putin has upset all of that and is being faced down. Apart from arming Ukraine there is very little else that can be done.

briany

@correct horse battery staple

when will European leaders learn that appeasement doesn’t work and only way out now is to crush Putin like the criminal cockroach he is

I don't think it's anything to do with appeasement as a policy, like they're going, "Let's do this thing which hasn't really worked in history and give it another go." I think what's interpreted as appeasement is more that leaders who stand to benefit from the world order as is are never going to go headlong into a confrontation which could undermine regional peace, economic stability and political stability. A lot of these people aren't really thinking of being great statesmen so much as they're thinking about the next election. They do not want to deal with a problem such as Russia's aggressions until it can no longer be ignored - until it becomes an existential risk such that confrontation's benefits outweigh the potential economic and political fallout, domestically.

And this effect amplifies the further you get from the problem. That's why Poland and the Baltics have been on the ball where countries further west have dithered at times.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101206#Comment_119101206

Isolating Russia in all aspects of economic, political and cultural life is not to be underestimated either.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101151#Comment_119101151

I wouldn't worry too much about what these goons say. (what a great word - 'goons'. I've been waiting a long time to use it in its appropriate context and I think I've finally found the right one.)

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101267#Comment_119101267

What's the last bit of meaningful culture that Russia produced? It's living on the fumes from the 19th and early 20th century. No loss to isolate them from the cultural community.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101134#Comment_119101134

Aside from the rights and wrongs of Western meddling, there's a current through the West in some circles where everything is the West's fault. They study racism and racialism through what they apparently see around them. The shock they'd get about how much a lot of those different Asian people don't like each other and how they have their own racial purity memes through their culture would be a good one.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101296#Comment_119101296

The one I was thinking of was actually sport, which they are very heavily invested in (to the point of doping their athletes up to the eyeballs).

Culturally, I don't know much about dance but my daughter assures me that ballet is at its pinnacle in Russia. Classical music too is heavily prized. Far more than we do.

I know a bit more about literature and Russia is definitely a heavyweight contributor; if you're looking for 20th century behemoths look no further than names like Akhamatova, Solzhenitstyn, Grossman.

Russians really do prize what we might call 'high culture', most of them can recite stacks of poetry off by heart. It's one of the biggest insults you can give to a Russian, to call them uncultured or nekulturny. So I do think that aspect of the sanctions hurts. Obviously its relatively trivial compared to everything else.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101299#Comment_119101299

Another way to think about that is how confident we are in the strength of our democratic institutions. We have such faith in our democratic institutions that we feel completely confident in criticising them and constantly analysing our failures. This is a good thing.

Autocratic countries by contrast have no such confidence hence why dissent and independent thinking is suppressed.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101292#Comment_119101292

I would say that the rest of the EU or NATO would help, and help directly in the scenario you describe. I've had the same concern, and as has been explained to me, if those countries are not helped, then NATO is essentially signalling that it is not prepared to protect its interests or its dominion and it's therefore open season for any ambitious military force who wants to perform some hostile takeovers, thus the West loses the geopolitical chess match in one fell swoop.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101371#Comment_119101371

The other counterpoint to the argument is very practical; since the Ukraine war began, are previously non-aligned countries turning towards NATO and the EU, or away from it?

Dohnjoe

..

https://twitter.com/MFA_Ukraine/status/1528341183705100288

Hobgoblin11

https://t.me/lumsrc/1528

Russian army conducted assault actions near Toshkivka town near Severodonetsk, - General Staff of Armed Forces of Ukraine says in the morning report

time to retreat, live to fight another day!

Mecanudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101326#Comment_119101326

Regardless of any claims to high culture, the Russians we're seeing in Ukraine and many of those in support of that particular "special operation" (sic) are little more than fooking savages.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101350#Comment_119101350

Which is why they also need protecting. The idea of there being no truth or it being unknowable is a big part of the Russia psyche now. I hate seeing it seep into Western discourse. At home we see a certain crowd have almost completed their long march through the institutions and have all the hallmarks of a certain kind of banana republic but I'm just worried about nothing.

They key is keeping up debate when it matters. All too often politicians and people fall into a trap of discussing nonsense for far too long. Even when it's something that matters in ends up getting boiled into some nonsense issue or other. It's how Boris and Trump get away with bare-faced lies, because some of the "ah sure they're all the same" cynicism has taken root that deeply. Economic issues, rampant inflation, housing shortages, massive immigration all taking place during it (but of course not allowed to talk about that) are all lining up to allow for big, quick changes across Europe. It wouldn't take much for things to take a turn.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101326#Comment_119101326

At the higher ends that's very true but how many Russians does that really apply to?

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101296#Comment_119101296

The films of Zvyagintsev are first class and the equal of any other European cinema of this century. Also highly critical of the contemporary materialism and corruption of Russian society, state and church.

But yeah, when you think of Russian culture it is still generally the big hitters of the 19th and early to mid 20th century that come to mind, not an awful lot since

shivaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101423#Comment_119101423

The Russians have been on the outskirts of Toshkivka for over a month now with no movement.

If you are saying the russians should retreat and fight another day then I would partially agree...they should retreat and go home and dream of fighting another day

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101487#Comment_119101487

I've watched a few Russian movies of the critically-acclaimed variety like Solaris, Stalker and The Return and they're slooooooooow. The Russians really have a thing for the meditative drama genre where the cinematography is more important than the story. It's fine if you're in that kind of mood, but it's never really going to capture the world's attention.