Russia - threadbanned users in OP

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370425#Comment_118370425

Is it not up the freedom of each country to decide that themselves. Why does Putin get to dictate what a neighbouring country does or doesn't do.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370425#Comment_118370425

Why ask empty questions with obvious answers? NATO was formed to protect against Russian aggression. Counties which have repeatedly suffered under Russian rule wish to be protected in future.

It’s hardly an empty question. Do you think NATO is just being beneficent then? Just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts?

Russian aggression in the past 15 years has been driven by NATO expansion. This in turn drives other states to want to join NATO.

It is a mutually unproductive situation and both sides need to step back. There is no one good side and one bad side.

people who can’t see that are frankly blinded by ideology and liable to lead us to war that no one can win.

Manic Moran

We managed to have NATO and WarPact co-exist right next to each other without anyone delving into a European war. Whatever the “other side” felt, NATO members certainly seemed to feel that there was a “good side” and it was productive. Recent members like Poland or the Baltics presumably could look at the past 70 years and come to their own conclusions as to what is in their own best interests, especially since they were for a time on the opposing side to NATO. The benefit to existing NATO members is that peace on the continent of Europe is more productive for them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370644#Comment_118370644

And that peace is now jeopardized by a continuing eastward expansion. If the purpose of NATO is to deter conflict, and its expansion to Ukraine actually foments conflict or leads to a new nuclear stand-off (which it most certainly will) then NATO has overreached and undermined itself.

How this increases the security of anyone defies explanation.

Gatling

@[Deleted User] One can legitimately ask why, if NATO is purely defensive, it wants to admit Georgia and Ukraine?

Strength in numbers there is also the issue that no country is actually guaranteed entry into NATO ,

The question has to be asked why Russia with its huge arsenal of nuclear weapons is so afraid of countries making their own decisions about who and who they don't Allie with .

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370708#Comment_118370708

In fairness I have already answered this at length earlier in the thread. People don’t care for it because they’re blinkered, but that doesn’t matter. Putin tells people every single day why here cares. He cares for exactly the same reason that America would care if the shoe were on the other foot. We know how the US reacts when a sovereign, neighboring nation decides to ally with an enemy: we got the Cuban Missile Crisis. If Mexico or Canada tomorrow agreed to host Chinese or Russian military infrastructure on their territories — troops, tanks, attack aircraft, missile batteries, etc., the rebuke from Washington would be very swift indeed.

(BTW, whatever Ukraine feels about Russia is probably little different than what Belgium felt about Germany at one point. Look at them today. Differences can be overcome through integration not confrontation.)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370708#Comment_118370708

“Strength in numbers…”

this is a very weak argument actually. Strength in numbers. NATO is already far stronger than Russia conventionally speaking. Which only brings the nuclear option more to the fore for the underdog, which is not desirable for anyone surely. It also demonstrates that NATO is an anti-Russia alliance at its core, which of course makes Russia’s fears all the more understandable.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370763#Comment_118370763

Anti russia oh you Russophobic the term coined to explain away russian indiscretions by blaming Russophobia ,the EU and NATO doesn't fear russia and they obviously don't thrust them either with very good reason , Putin has repeatedly threatened other sovereign states from Georgia ,to Moldova ,to Poland ,the Czech's the Baltics , Finland and the Scandinavian countries ,

Why is there a defensive alliance hmmmm I wonder why ,

But remember we're not threatening anyone there on porch of course vladi

Larbre34

How was that ever close to being possible? The utterly filthy corruption that emerged in the new Federation IMMEDIATELY after the collapse of the USSR made it impossible.

Russia were involved closely with various projects and were courted by the US after 9-11 to join the coalition against islamist terrorism, but lets be real here, Russia always wanted to plough its own furrow (Pristina Airport confrontation, Ukraine etc), too many senior Russian figures wanted a new USSR that would serve themselves and not the people. They had no concept of the latter notion and so a new, free Russia was killed in infancy. Thats why we have Putin in the first place. Those men made common cause with the slavic ultra-nationalists in places like Serbia and Belarus and the Republics in the Caucasus, because they were their sort of people, not liberal Western European democratic socialists. Not ever. And now it pisses them off massively that an expansion of their influence has stalled and their financial might is stunted.

And thats why we are, where we are. Call me dogmatic if you will, but I'd counter that you're a fool for buying any part of what Vladimir Putin is now trying to sell.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370587#Comment_118370587

Russian aggression has been driven by naked greed. No threat of invasion from NATO has ever been presented to it.

To say there is no good side is to ignore the evidence of the entirety of the USSR's existence, and the 10s of millions exterminated therein.

Yurt2

The history of Russian states politically has always been reflexively expansionist, I'm not sure why people are surprised that Putin carries this tradition, or even baulks at it being suggested.

Even at the kindest interpretation, it wants to develop pliant client states at its borders. Does anyone seriously consider this an attractive proposition in Eastern Europe with the fruits of the Western European markets and security guarantees as the alternative?

Let's say you're a former Eastern bloc state wondering to look to Moscow or to the West, what are the case studies?

A: Poland; whose economy has expanded by 900% since the end of the Cold War and EU & NATO accession

B: Belarus; vassal state and economic backwater chained to the Kremlin

Instead of going into a sulk and threatening war, Putin needs to get clued in that he's offering his 'near abroad' a particularly sh*tty deal given the alternative on offer.

BurgerFace

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118178885#Comment_118178885

Which ones? And why would one broker a "peace deal" with ones own forces?

BurgerFace

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118179603#Comment_118179603

Jarring? Are the Russians not allowed to put as many soldiers or bombers or tanks anywhere they want in their own country? Nothing illegal about that. I don't see America massing troops inside their own country except on the borders of other people's countries. I don't see Russia or China invading countries and killing millions or sailing around with naval battle groups 10,000km from their countries as if it was their right.

Maybe that's great with you. Me..not so sure.

BurgerFace

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118181558#Comment_118181558

Why would you think that Russia has any designs on Ukraine when they recognised the sovereignty when the USSR split apart?

If Putin wants to take over Ukraine, then why is he not trying to take over Kazakhstan? 20% of the population is ethnic Russian.

Oscar Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370477#Comment_118370477

Didn't Kennedy do the very same durng the Cuban Missile Crisis back in the early 60's?

If I were Putin I would be doing the very same & I applaud him for it!

Gatling

Ok who's annoyed our russian guests

Stanley 1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118376966#Comment_118376966

Putin wants to re-establish the old USSR so any sovereignty granted back then, he just ignores, he will get round to Kazakhstan in due course but shaking up Ukraine and using it as an an example to all others will serve him well, he is a bully.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118376966#Comment_118376966

I'm pretty sure both Putin and Medvedev have pretty much said about rejoining Ukraine ( in whole or in part ) to Russia ..

Theres also the small issue of Donetsk and Luhansk... You know Russian troops doing a nixer in Ukraine , using the company tools and company vans ...

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118370698#Comment_118370698

The problem with that line of thinking is that the countries most likely to suffer the ravages of war in the near future (and which suffered them quite badly in the previous century) are those who have been applying to join NATO of late. Destabilisation is even less of an appealing concept for them than for the major NATO powers like US and Germany. Yet they are still of the belief that it is in their interests to do so. It seems that their conclusion is that the benefits outweigh the possible negatives.

mcmoustache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118378185#Comment_118378185

And the actual annexation of Crimea. I don't know how the poster that you were responding to could not know these things.

Hasschu

The latest I see here is the Russian Gov't has asked (demanded) a meeting to discuss weapons installed by the USA in the old USSR countries bordering Russia in Europe. This means Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine, Georgia and Azerbaijan. The Russian proposal is that the US remove all offensive weapons capable of reaching major Russian cities. The justification is that NATO which the US declared would not move one inch East is now right up to Russia's border. Why now you might ask, because Russia now has weapons capable of reaching the US homeland against which the US has no defence. If the US does not respond favourably the Russians promise to encircle the US as close to the US as NATO is to Russia. The US pulled out of all the US-Russian treaties that would limit the number, power, range and precision of weapon systems in each country. The balance of power has now shifted and it will be interesting to see how Biden-Nuland measures up to Putin-Lavrov. On Russian TV there is an ex USSR military officer Andrei Martyanov (Google) who comments occasionally on US-Russia matters, he is interesting in that he reflects Russian thinking.

Hasschu

Gatling

There was no agreement that nato wouldn't move one inch east ,the agreements the then Soviets wanted was no new nato bases east of Berlin,it was never actually discussed in which way ,it was apparently raised once during a meeting 25 years ago,

Yes nato has increased memberships but no new nato bases have been built in the last 2 + decades anywhere in Europe,

All this nato surrounding Russia is nonsense , Russia has weapons and so does America and NATO ,and yet America is still currently the only country who can strike any where in the world 24/7 .

Russia makes bold claims about its weapons but they are bold claims to give them an element of fear ,

mcmoustache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118381789#Comment_118381789

Just on NATO surrounding Russia, here are the places where NATO countries border Russia:

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118376966#Comment_118376966

Take it easy...give the man a chance, as soon as the Ukraine / Crimea fuss dies down a bit, I'm pretty sure that Kazakhstan is on the to-do list, Just presently its not on the priority list.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118382682#Comment_118382682

I can see why putin is so scared of nato definitely some bold moves there 😂😂😂

Gatling

Something that's gotten little or no mention is Romania is buying 32 + F16s from Norway who are switching to the new F35 jet ,nato countries operate 500+ F16s ,one of the best fighter jet of all time

BurgerFace

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118377450#Comment_118377450

He does? Really?

You have proof of that? You know what he wants to do? Putin exposed and shut down a coup in 1991 to hold the USSR together. He blocked and exposed a plot by several generals.

If he was such a virulent proponent of the USSR then why would he expose and scupper a coup?

Are you backward?

Stanley 1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118389009#Comment_118389009

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26769481

"Russia has been a great power for centuries, and remains so. It has always had and still has legitimate zones of interest ... We should not drop our guard in this respect, neither should we allow our opinion to be ignored," he said.

His domestic policy was to restore stability, to end what he called the "revolutions", that had brought Russia low. His foreign policy was to regain Russia's place in world affairs.

Those two core aims have driven everything he has done since. If only people had been listening, none of his actions would have come as a surprise to them".

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/10/vladimir-putin-russia-rehabilitating-stalin-soviet-past

Putin wants the old USSR back but now the Communist bit, he and his mates will pocket all the dosh.