Russia - threadbanned users in OP

20Wheel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139392#Comment_120139392

Do you think that maybe some of the delay may be due to not wanting to give a nuclear armed dictator the propaganda fuel he needs to set the continent ablaze?

I would say that if ever there was a time to not rush in, its now. Germany is going at an appropriate pace, considering the abyss its crossing. Deaths in the double digit millions have previously happened on this continent due to war. And Putin seems intent on taking a lot of people with him as his age ticks up. His health doubted by some. A history of mercilessness and venomous spite behind him.

Same reason why a nato coalition hasn't simply plowed in full steam, boots on the ground. Putin would just point his propaganda machine at it 'look, look they're out to get us see' and he gets his egoic death legacy, takes millions with him.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139245#Comment_120139245

Just putting my thoughts out there, as the narrative of German govt. corruption, selfishness & a sort of collaboration with Putin/Russia delaying supply of weapons (such as your post) is always so dominant on the thread and it mostly goes unchallenged.

Sniff and sneer at it if you like but part of it is fear of escalation. Fear of taking a risk (even a necessary one), of taking the initiative.

Poland have not sent any of their non-Soviet era tanks. They shout alot (mainly to hammer Germany, the govt. likes doing that), but they won't put their arse on the line and unilaterally take large numbers of modern tanks (or anything else) away from their own army without having guarantee of rapid replacements, and others (Germany) stepping up + sharing this load. It will not happen, they won't do anything alone without others IMO. I am not blaming them for this btw, Ukraine and this war is very close to them.

As for the US, defer to experts about their tanks being a poorer fit.

IMO the imperative to achieve a good outcome of this war and also not to have it grind on for a very long time is much less acute for the US than for any European country. Perhaps we are approaching limits now of what the US/Biden will take a risk with for Europe's security/Ukraine. Maybe they believe it is Europe's/European's "job"/resposibility to handle the tanks aspect and they are doing enough/more than enough for Ukraine already, which is fair. I suppose a serious negative change in Ukraine's circumstances (like Russia launching + succeeding with some new offensives and/or further mobilisations this year, changing or improving its tactics, getting more weapons/materiel support from major 3rd parties) could affect this again.

Anyway if the European countries/Germany want to see Ukraine end this war in a strong position and not have it drag on for years maybe they are going to have to organise, step up + accept more responsibility for getting Ukraine the weapons it needs.

Gatling

It's a thing

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139492#Comment_120139492

I agree with your last paragraph but on the specific point of Poland and tanks...

Leopard tanks are non-Soviet era tanks and Poland wants to send them.

Where is evidence for your statement re: the quid pro quo that Poland will only send them if they get replacements / other countries do it also rather than because they need permission from Germany to re-export?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/19/poland-could-send-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine-without-german-approval

ZX7R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139503#Comment_120139503

Possibly the poster is mixing up statements from the polish government.

They will send 14 leopard's now and more during the year when more deliveries from Korea arrive.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139494#Comment_120139494

It's just a minor twist on schadenfreude, if you think about it - 'you thought we were really going to pull you out of ze crashed car - zo funny, ha, ha, ha'

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139408#Comment_120139408

Or maybe the ambassador is waffling?

I tend to be cautious of blanket statements like that. I think it's more that if the US agree to give Ukraine X then any countries with X can also give theirs.

So if and when the US agrees to give, say F16's then other countries are free to give them also. There's no limit on the quantity

As for the training, it was one poster on here stating that Ukraine have been training on challenger tanks for weeks already in Estonia. However Ben Wallace stated after the announcement of challenger tanks that training will start in a few days. Personally I'd take Ben Wallace's statement more than a poster on boards.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139503#Comment_120139503

I admit that was just my own surmising about what will (could) happen in the end - that if it happens the Polish Leopard tanks will go as part of a European coalition and they will need to be "replaced" somehow.

The modernised Soviet tanks they already sent to Ukraine are meant to be replaced eventually with more & better US/Korean ones, and I think the UK (and maybe others?) have some tanks in Poland also now as part of NATO deployment (article on these points - https://www.wsj.com/articles/poland-supplies-ukraine-with-hundreds-of-soviet-style-tanks-11651240293).

I don't know what the story is with this "permission" aspect. Polish govt. says (per article you posted) they will act unilaterally regardless of permission withheld, and am sure they do want to send these tanks when they can, but I don't tend to just believe and accept what anyone out of that govt. says. They have form.

I will watch what they do instead. I'd be amazed if they do act unilaterally on it (edit: e.g. a scenario like Germany publically gives them permission, & then 100s of Polish Leopards head off to Ukraine ahead of other countries sending any or a plan being in place for replacements).

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139490#Comment_120139490

No, because other countries, which are physically much closer to Russia, are not delaying like Germany is. So that doesn't hold up.

It's not "the same reason" as NATO fighting Russia directly on the ground, that's a different issue entirely.

Perhaps the German leadership are playing "the contrarian" so that they can leverage eventual negotiations with Putin out of it, but they are paying for that with Ukrainian blood. Many people rightfully think it's not the right approach. Putin only responds to strength, nothing else. We've learnt nothing but that in the last 20 years. It appears some in Germany haven't (incredibly enough).

cnocbui

https://twitter.com/oleksiireznikov/status/1616858176481017856

Nice. They donated 3.

20Wheel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139556#Comment_120139556

Nato aren't in Ukraine for the same reason that Germany (and US) aren't sending tanks, yet.

Same reason US was strict about some of their weapons not striking inside Russian territory.

Nobody other than Putin wants to spark a third world war. Not nato, not US and not Germany. All are reluctant, or have been, with good reason. A twisted nuclear armed dictator.

Putins strength comes from propaganda and mass manipulation, if nato fly jets over Ukraine, or if US weapons strike inside Russia (Im aware some may have at this point but not initially), or if German tanks roll east and start wiping Russian units out, thats propaganda fuel for Putin.

If Germany is to be accused of being reticent then so is nato. Why aren't the skies closed by nato jets, this reticence is paid with Ukrainian blood. Remember, Putin only responds to strength, nothing else. Haven't US and nato leaders learned that in the last 20 years.

Or perhaps its a big plot, American multinationals owned by the elite wanted to prolong the war for arms sales and political instability in a growing Europe, so they didn't close the skies. The prolonged war made Europe dependent on imported US fuels, this was all planned long ago when the US helped disarm Ukraine of its nukes. US bad, yadda yadda yadda.

Say my name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139449#Comment_120139449

Why are the police wearing the army naZi Z symbol ?

Who are these? military police?

Otherwise they've gone full on nazi in home society.

20Wheel

https://www.openpetition.eu/petition/online/people-around-the-world-ask-nato-to-close-the-airspace-over-ukraine

'We, people around the world, are asking NATO member states and Ukraine-friendly countries to close the airspace over Ukraine and deploy peacekeeping troops in Ukraine, provide military assistance to Kyiv and support the Ukrainian people.'

• Launched February 2022.

booo, booo nato, booo. nato needs to step up.

Gatling

Oh it's all the big multinationals fault 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Conspiracy theories 101

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139716#Comment_120139716

Not 100% sure if yer being serious or joking. Anyway, in case yer being serious, NATO are a defensive organisation and NATO are not under attack. Therefore, NATO will stay well out of there and will support from the sidelines but no NATO boots will cross the border peacekeeping or otherwise

20Wheel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139745#Comment_120139745

Why not swoop on in and save the day, close the skies. The means to do so are there.

Hobgoblin11

Moldova's President Maia Sandu acknowledges that country needs to assess whether it can defend itself or whether it "should be part of a larger alliance

https://twitter.com/POLITICOEurope/status/1616524995806601217

20Wheel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139730#Comment_120139730

Yes conspiracy theories 101, exactly.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139142#Comment_120139142

Ah, but wait until she gets her 5 mins of fame on the Solovyov and Simonyan RT show. Her very own interpretation of Edvard Munch's The Scream.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139304#Comment_120139304

Sure, and gratefully received too, but why not the leopard tanks? According to various discussions, these could vastly improve Ukraine's chances of an outright victory, thereby ending the war and all the suffering? If they have serious misgivings about supplying this tank, then Ok, I could under stand that, but they don't, they are making the supply of it conditional.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139660#Comment_120139660

The conflict has evolved. Multiple NATO countries have sent and are sending tanks. Germany isn't. Hence the issue.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139760#Comment_120139760

Because that's WW3. We can't implement a no-fly zone and can't put boots on the ground.

So instead, countries have been supporting and arming Ukraine to help them defend themselves.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139449#Comment_120139449

Each and every form of deviation from the official position has to be ruthlessly put down, there and then. If not what might it develop into? And its the "what might it develop into" is what terrifies Putin, because deep down he knows what he is doing is wrong.....he gambled and is losing, and the next few months will seal his fate, one way or another. Meanwhile, he can't have anyone showing any kind of sympathy to the victims of the Dnipro bombing and drawing public attention to it, especially within Russia itself. Imagine some one in Samara, where anti-war tensions are running high, with survivors of the Makiivka bombing refusing to return to Ukraine, and some one held a similar compassion for the victims of the Dnipro bombing.

20Wheel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139843#Comment_120139843

And a large number of those tanks are sent through an exchange program, exchanged for German Leopard tanks, organized by Germany. Essentially its Germany sending tanks, indirectly.  Ringtausch program.

Why? Because it denies Putin the hype and optics of a German invasion propaganda campaign.

20Wheel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139856#Comment_120139856

Nato can. But it chooses not to.

Because.... see above post (# 77201). Propaganda hype and optics, potentially leading to WW3 (as you mention yourself).

Simple.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139940#Comment_120139940

Right, how do you feel about UK, Poland, Czech Republic, France, Netherlands, Slovenia sending tanks to Ukraine?

20Wheel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139981#Comment_120139981

I feel that 35 of the Czech tanks are from the German exchange program I mentioned. Effectively its Germany donating Czech tanks (Along with a whole load of bmps). While wearing a Czechia shaped hat.

France apparently haven't sent tanks at all, the nerds don't like to hear that. Its a reconnaissance vehicle.

UK tanks haven't arrived. Because theres a gap between announcement and delivery, which is fine.

But overall I feel its all good. Combined EU (and UK) resources are impressive indeed.

Bitcoin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139214#Comment_120139214

Apache's last week, F16's today.

The penny is finally starting to drop. Now just force the orc friends to release the Leopards and the orcs are toast.

Bitcoin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120138450#Comment_120138450

120k dead orcs. another 360k wounded or captured.

Ukraine are bleeding the orcs dry. The orc horde are doing to collapse very soon.

Gatling

@20Wheel I feel that 35 of the Czech tanks are from the German exchange program I mentioned. Effectively its Germany donating Czech tanks (Along with a whole load of bmps). While wearing a Czechia shaped hat.

You feel,

Germany can't send /donate Czech tanks ,

Keyword Czech tanks ,some countries said they could only send certain equipment if they had a replacement/s to cover what they send ,

But that little situation led to where we are this week with Germany,oh everyone else has to send tanks their tanks before we decide to think about having a discussion about sending our tanks,

But if that's the case why exactly are they blocking other countries from sending lepoard tanks exactly,

At least when the time comes to rebuilding the Ukrainian military and Nato tank forces German tanks won't be a option worth investing in considering how they can't be used by anyone but themselves.

Abrams, challengers and Korean black panthers will all be making sales pitches to Europen military forces