Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247931#Comment_120247931

Honestly it was the lack of supporting infantry anywhere near by that I was surprised by ,

you may only have one operational tank in the platoon ( not ideal )

Mind you the dismounts could be miles back , and the chances are an enemy squad would have something that could feic up a bmp (or anything even less armoured) and it's passengers ,

Raoul Duke III

Probably one of our main weapons in nudging Russia towards an inflection point is...information. It could well be argued that information was one of the main causes of the fall of Communism

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247929#Comment_120247929

You could well be right about Russia directly paying reparations,

I'm hoping they have no choice

Western companies ( and probably Turkish and Chinese ) will make a fortune out of any rebuilding work , there's an awful lot to be done ..

If handled well , it could be the stimulus that brings Ukraine up to the level of a modern developed economy..

It's going to need governmental help to underwrite the possibly trillions worth of investments needed over decades..

It'll definitely help if Russia has to pay an export levy ..

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248983#Comment_120248983

We thought that Russia was heading towards a better future in 1991 but their attempt to become westernised led to chaos. Books can be written, and have been written, about how exactly that chaos unfolded and why it unfolded, but the result was it allowed Putin to step into the breach and promote the idea that Russia requires an iron fisted leader and that Western valus just aren't that compatible with the Russian mindset.

So, when it comes to a better future for Russia, it has to be at some crossroad between what the West and Russians would find acceptable going forward, else we end up back at a similar point again. That is unless we just go the whole hog and encourage the breakup of the Russian federation such that it can't be much of a threat in the future even if it wanted to be.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249009#Comment_120249009

Probably because most of the world backs Cuba, only the US still keeping that embargo & sanctions going.

Sanctions will unlikely lead to regime change in Russia because they still have a lot of countries friendly with them. So long as India, China, Pakistan, Iran and most of Latin America are still buying & selling to Russia, there wont be anywhere near the same pressure to reform as South Africa had.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248143#Comment_120248143

Not only is it unlikely that Russia would volunteer rebuilding assets and crews it's also unlikely that Ukraine would let Russian crews and heavy machinery across the border in any guise -

Say my name

Who was pushed out of a window in Russia today?

http://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1626234517886492675

Marina was.

Dufflecoat Fanny

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248215#Comment_120248215

Everytime I hear of one of these window incidents I picture this

https://youtu.be/4S7QARslq74

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248212#Comment_120248212

That's all true ,

But in just accountancy terms 30 to 1 ,would be a bad deal, if you loose a couple of million dollar tank , and worse it's crew

And if you're short on tanks in the field,or just that location , it's cash value is irrelevant because when you need it you need it ..

That being said you do what you can with what you got ..the tankers have got to be bold or they're useless , a mix I suppose

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249177#Comment_120249177

Evidence that all of Ukraine's farmland will be taken over = zero.

This is yet more Russian propaganda and disinformation, utterly without merit or foundation, for which you provide no evidence whatsover. Because you have none. It is a lie you repeat here.

Better for Ukraine if they just surrendered what Russian wants? But that probably doesn't count as 'extortionate' in your world eh?

Strange isn't it, how you can use phrases like 'extortionate' but when it comes to condemning Russian atrocities, you can find no words.

The Marshall Plan gave countries a free choice. So your whataboutery is an epic fail.

Russia does not give such choices. That is the relevant point to this thread.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248983#Comment_120248983

If Russia had free elections and a free press, I can imagine that extreme nationalists, unreconstructed communists, fronts for oligarchs and other unsavoury groups would command a majority in the Duma. The "normal" social democrats, liberals, greens etc would probably be an impotent minority. Even Romania had a more "normal" political culture after 1989, even though it was corrupt and an economic basket case for several years.

I don't know what it would take to make Russia "normal".

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249177#Comment_120249177

I think you'll find that the Marshall plan was kind of the opposite,

The US won the war , they had all the gold, and could go home to an unravaged country

The Marshall plan financed the reconstruction of Europe , and they got really favourable deals to export to the US,

The US got a lot out of the Marshall plan and NATO, but it wasn't directly financial,

They didn't want to be back in Europe fighting another major war in 30 years ..

The other thing the Marshall plan was big on was Ant-corruption , and like any hugely expensive project ,people will get rich

If as successful a plan as the Marshall plan can be worked out and implemented then whoopey - Ukraine will be successfully joining the EU in no time ..

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249177#Comment_120249177

Nonsense, the Marshall Plan saved Europe. Your economic analysis is just as rubbish as your take on Putin's war.

Discodog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248088#Comment_120248088

Well Russia has no regard for International Law so why should the EU ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249147#Comment_120249147

This is always my go to GIF for these.........

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249221#Comment_120249221

Nobody knew what it would take to make Germany 'normal' in 1945 either. There was a quite widely supported plan (The Morgenthau Plan) to turn it into a purely agricultural economy and de-industrialize it completely.

MudSpud

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249210#Comment_120249210

The appropriation of Ukraine farmland into foreign hands began in 2014 and is ongoing:

Brief_CorporateTakeoverofUkraine_0.pdf (oaklandinstitute.org)

They may not get their hands on all of it but they'll get a lot.

You seem to have this habit of thinking that when Western corporations blatantly rob countries blind that they are acting with altruistic intentions. It's like you can't bear to consider that they might just be a bunch of criminals.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248020#Comment_120248020

Ultimately we want Russia to be a force for good in this world

The major problem there is Russia and Russians already see themselves as a "force for good", against the Collective West(TM), which is a monolithic thing for them and their narratives over the last few years and especially since this war started has reinforced this. That Denmark is the same as America, is the same as Japan, Korea, Spain, Canada etc. Utter bollocks of course, but if you've grown up within a monolithic narrative it's far easier to believe that of your foe. The Russian narrative is they're all in thrall and "under instructions" from Washington DC(or for the loopier the WEF/Elites/Space Lizards). They see themselves as protectors of old world values against the demonic liberals with their gays and 20 genders corrupting kids and society. Note how putin does this a lot in speeches to his people. He's reinforcing things most of them believe. And let's face it a fair number of people in the Colective West(TM) also buy into. And let's face it too, it's not exactly too difficult to believe when you see some of the daftness in play in some Western narratives.

That's not easy to change. Ah but the Germans did after WW2. Yep, they did, but nazism in Germany and all it represented was going for less than 20 years and was an outlier in German culture and society and was preceded by one of the most liberal cultures in Europe at the time. EG if you asked someone in 1900 to pick a nation that was going to persecute Jews and others at a governmental and legal level a bookie would have given you very long odds on Germany. One reason hitler had to come up with the Nuremburg laws was because Jews were so integrated within German society.

So Germany changing was not nearly such a shock, nor so difficult. However Russian culture has been relatively unchanged in many ways and for a long time. The joke is under communism they were actually more "liberal" in a lot of ways. Gender equality for a start, free medical care and education to third level others. They were ahead of many in the "West" on that score. But the base level heavily controlled, paranoid, centralistic imperialism goes back centuries, as does mistrust, defensiveness, even outright aggression towards "outside influences".

So to change that? Like you I have no idea. Though TBH I wouldn't want to try in the first place. For a start I have serious issues with what some in the West, particularly America do in attempting to bring the American Way(c) to places and cultures that it doesn't fit and the people themselves don't want it. QV all of the US' jaunts in the Middle East. My approach would be leave them to it and alone. Get mutually beneficial trade up and running again and after this and the sanctions that sprang from it, that should keep future shenanigans to a minimum. I'd also put far more money back into military spending within the EU which should also keep things tamped down. IMHO one reason putin ran with this war was he figured the EU just didn't have the military capacity anymore and again IMHO I reckon he wasn't too far wrong either.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249314#Comment_120249314

This is just disinformation.

You made an allegation that in order to avail of Western help in reconstruction they would have to hand over all Ukrainian farmland.

This is a lie.

This allegation is utterly false. It is a Russian propaganda lie you attempt to spread on this thread in the hope you will not be challenged on this scurrilous falsehood.

There was no blatant robbery of farmland. It is the different between buying something and stealing it.

It is Russia who is stealing Ukrainian land, lives, children, property.

You throw out phrases here like "blatantly rob" and "bunch of criminals".

But when it comes to Russia invading Ukraine, executing civilians, looting Ukrainian property, you have NO WORDS.

Russia is demanding Ukrainian sovereign territory. Territory Russia acknowledged as Ukrainian sovereign territory in signed treaties.

But that doesn't make them a bunch of criminals who rob in your morally bankrupt universe?

Utterly disgraceful Russian propaganda. You are fooling no one here with this.

The criminals here are Russian. The robbers are Russian. The looters are Russian. The appropriaters are Russian. The murderers are Russian.

And you defend them with this whataboutery.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249243#Comment_120249243

Ireland got a bit of the Marshall Pie too, let's not forget.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249157#Comment_120249157

It's 30-1 if they had an RPG.

It's like the old story

'' if I had some ham I could have a ham and egg sandwich.....if I had an egg''

The chances of the Russian have an RPG at squad level is probably nearly zero.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249335#Comment_120249335

It's a good post. None of us have answers. And the inevitable human response towards aggression like Russia has displayed towards Ukraine is punishment. But that doesn't work, it just invites future conflict.

One legacy of this awful chapter of human conflict where we can actually get immediate results, should be that we in the West should never again allow Russian criminals (oligarchs, but let's call them what they are) to buy influence and access in our societies. Including shiny bling like yachts, real estate and football clubs!

Curious_Case

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249326#Comment_120249326

As with Putin, that's just an associated necessity, not even worth attributing a sentiment, or even an adjective, to it.

The Ukrainian people are like no others, they constantly praise us on Facebook and admire our culture and scenery. They are extremely mannerly and particularly exceptional in that they look exactly like us in photographs and video clips. Their sense of humour is very similar to us, only the clothes and accents are different, and their accents are very pleasant to listen to. The language isn't a problem either, they are super easy to communicate with.

Sorry "Muck Potatoes", that's the way it is. And it's the same with the RUSSIAN SPEAKING UKRAINIAN REFUGEES.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248465#Comment_120248465

I'd like to see where he googled the figure and see the source. Researchers are still debating casuality numbers of historical wars, so add in the fog of a current war, never mind the propaganda flying about and anybody who claims they have a true figure is either a fool, a liar, or needs you to believe the figure they're peddling.

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249053#Comment_120249053

I got the impression at the time that the issue was less western values (although those are still undoubtedly a factor), than grasping short-termist capitalist values. To take a country from being one where the state took care of anything to being one based on balls-to-the-wall devil-take-the-hindmost capitalism was just too much of a shock. While the west was busy counting the profits, Russians were thinking maybe the lack of freedom of political expression under communism wasn't all that bad because at least under the old system they had a job and somewhere to live. Fertile ground for the likes of Putin. And here we are.

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249177#Comment_120249177

And yet all of Ukrainian land being taken over by Russia seems to sit much better with you.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248020#Comment_120248020

I suppose we won't know till a long time after the fact just what the planning really is , or how detailed ,

What happens with Ukraine"s reconstruction depends , on how the war ends , and on the Ukrainian government and people .

If Russia just pulls back to it's borders ,continues to threaten invaision and continues to fire missiles to destroy key infrastructure then investment for reconstruction is going to be hard to come by , ( which is why Ukraine needs to destroy the Russian army , unfortunately I can forsee several Iraqi style "road of death " scenarios possibly in Russia itself ..

But I don't think the west really wants Russia the state to disintegrate, it's too big ,too many pieces there are 21 individual republics ,and who knows how many sub-divisions

, theyre all wary of each other, each with their own mini-putin at the helm and they're all dependant on Moscow, for everything,contact to their neighbours ,transport- imports exports,imports ,food and energy for a lot of them they'd all be there to be scooped up by China ,financially ,politically militarily..

And a lot of the boundaries/borders are set up since stalinist times to be unstable .

Making the states ungovernable without a central power to keep everything in check ..

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249421#Comment_120249421

Not helped by the fact the Russian Prez at the time was a raging boozehound. 😉

But yes, the early 90s was a classic example of a bunch of free market academics being let loose on an entire economy with no guardrails. No surprise that chaos, poverty and mass robbery was the result.

If North Korea ever becomes ripe for democratization, they should do a powerpoint deck of what was done in the post-Communist Russia and then agree 'we are most definitely not doing that'.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249468#Comment_120249468

You have to give them some upside - 'be a good boy and you'll get a lollipop'. Obviously this doesn't work with Putin and in hindsight we have been waaaay too lenient with him down the years. Possibly not surprising when you see how utterly compromised figures like Berlusconi, Trump and Schroeder are.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249292#Comment_120249292

Morgenthau got ditched once saner mainstream voices were heard. Remember Germany had only 12 years of Nazi rule. Prior to 1933 it had strong social democratic, liberal, and christian democratic traditions in politics, and these quickly were resurrected post 1945. Russia has had very little by way of memory of democratic politics; communism lasted 70+ years and before that it was for the most part an autocracy.

Putin's supression of media freedoms will set back any political recovery by years if not decades.