Russia - threadbanned users in OP

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316054#Comment_120316054

The downside of a lot of these videos coming out of Ukraine is the seemingly obligatory heavy metal soundtrack, when in fact the sound of gunfire or battle is all the music they need.

😉

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316199#Comment_120316199

Loss of life is always tragic, this goes without saying, and its this tragic loss of Ukrainian Life at the hands of Putin that has which triggered this war. This is very clear who the culprit is. Now what do you suggest could or should have been done to prevent Putin invading Ukraine? ( or indeed any of his previous criminal acts? )

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316297#Comment_120316297

Not a fan at all of any of the music choices in any of the videos myself either,

I'd rather if they just muted the drone noises ,

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316253#Comment_120316253

They see themselves as great critical thinkers, but it hasn't dawned on them that a knee-jerk reaction of discounting everything a certain source says is just as stupid as a knee-jerk acceptance of it, and while they laugh at people who agree with MSM versions of events, they eat up alternative versions* with a big spoon and ask for seconds, no matter how poor the evidence, how unsound the argument or how blatant the agenda.

*Usually YouTube grifters. Apparently watching lots of these is called "doing your own research".

SlowBlowin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316304#Comment_120316304

I am assuming if one of your Russian friends was forcibly conscripted and sent to the front and killed you would think that the loss of his life was tragic, understandable given he was wearing the uniform but never the less tragic ?

If that's the case what exactly do disagree with in my posts ?

Regarding Putin, I am no expert but I think much stronger action could have been taken before the event detailing how much the west was was going support Ukraine in the event of invasion, it might have been enough to make Putin think twice.

storker

Interesting analysis and background by Julia Ioffe (31st Jan 2023). Some stand-out points she makes:

• No promise was given to Russia that NATO would no expand.
• Westerners tend to assume that Russians fundamentally have similar attitudes and values to them. They don't. Being western-looking doesn't make them western-thinking. On the intrnational stage, Russians tend to be cynical and lie where westerners are usually more up-front. This can result in westerners tending to assume the Russians are being honest, and Russians tending to assume that westerners are lying.
• Trump was an easy mark for Putin to manipulate.
• The Russians expected sanctions and thought they could soak them up as in 2014, but did not anticipate the scale of the current sanctions or the unity shown by the west.
• It's naive to aussume that there are moderate waiting to take over from Putin. He is more likely to be replaced by someone even worse.
• Most interestingly, she expects the military conflict to end shortly, but (frustratingly) the interviewer fails to press her for more detail about this opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEu0oRajJxE

It's along clip (over an hour) but worth watching. (In the spirit of full disclosure I do find her very easy on the eye and ear. 😀)

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316353#Comment_120316353

I watched that interview last week. She's always very insightful. Frontline posted a couple of other long-form interviews with her.

Regarding the supposed promise that was made to Gorbachev, and that Putin has repeated more than once, from my searching around, it appears that no assurance was ever given in writing, but that promises were made verbally. The promises, however, were that NATO would not place any military infrastructure in the former East Germany. Nothing about NATO expanding to other former Eastern Bloc countries, although Gorbachev also said that NATO expansion into these countries violated the spirit of what had been originally agreed, even though NATO had stuck to the original promise of placing no military infrastructure in the former GDR.

Regarding Putin's potential fall from power and who replaces him, I suppose that depends somewhat on how his fall from power occurs. If his fall is due to some internal machinations; some political skullduggery, then I could see him being replaced by someone as bad, but if it's due to public discontent over the war bubbling over - if people start saying no to conscription, then a more extreme version of Putin would have a very shaky mandate. At best they'd end up trying to manage two wars - one at home and one abroad.

machiavellianme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316297#Comment_120316297

They've mostly crappy dance soundtracks, at least this one had Rammstein (still not heavy metal) and fits nicely with the mechanics at play

vixdname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120313874#Comment_120313874

You make a good point in fairness but Id weight the pros and cons of such an action as opening fire on pro russian bus ins.

CON: Itd give Putin propaganda material

PRO: Itd put a full stop to any more of these "Rallies" going ahead as the participants will know their fate, so for me I say open fire and we'll take the hit with the short lived propaganda material for Putin, BUT, thats just my opinion of course !

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315938#Comment_120315938

LOL.....Yessss ooof course, we have, and have after careful consideration decided that they have not got one iota of justification for their illegal murderous invasion of an independent neighbouring state.

Fritzbox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316232#Comment_120316232

If the Western countries decided to send to Ukraine fighter aircraft such as F-16 or Typhoon, do you think the Ukrainian Air Force would have enough qualified pilots to fly comnbat missions, or enough qualified technicians to keep them serviceable? I would have my doubts myself?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316124#Comment_120316124

It's progress, relatively speaking, Bakhmut will fall shortly, at horrendous cost to the Russian penal system, at horrendous cost to Russian munitions as well.

It has also come at horrendous cost to Ukraine, the Wall St Journal saying it has been so brutal that it will delay the Spring counter offensive.

A lot more dead on both sides before Russia is pushed back.

Russia could easily exhaust itself to collapse after another year or two of this.

Ukraine will be lucky to avoid being a failed State, there are 8mn and rising refugees from there across Western Europe. If they don't go back in the next few years, then Ukraine has no future.

Like all significant wars the consequences of this will be playing out long after the guns stop.

2 broken failed States with a stand off in bits of Donbas might be the final outcome, the every one loses in one way scenario.

The quicker it ends, the less damage to all, Europe and North America should be ramping up military aid, all aid.

More dead now will mean a lot less dead long term.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315215#Comment_120315215

And what would happen to the invaders during the Ukrainian offensive you're hoping will happen?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315216#Comment_120315216

The interesting thing is that now that is a possibility (like the hmm'ing and haw'ing over tanks a month back) a year ago it would have been absolutely unthinkable, those requests are out there and russia isn't threatening retaliation against the west (in any serious way) if they happen.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316483#Comment_120316483

A very similar set of questions like that were mention wrt western tanks.

I don't think it's like Russia were they send qualified artillery soldiers to the Frontline as cannon fodder.

It would be a waste of resources sending qualified technician's to the Frontline, so one would assume all the ground support staff Ukraine had prior to the war are still in some support role. It's also wartime, so those qualified soldiers who retired/left the force can be called back. No doubt during wartime they can skip some red tape and work just a little harder and longer to get stuff done. Thus 1 technician can do more during wartime than during peacetime.

A few months ago Ukraine had zero soldiers trained on western tanks and IFV, there should easily be over 1000 of them trained (600+ trained on Bradley's already)

If the west decide to give Ukraine F16's, it would also include training.

The argument is that it takes, let's say 6 months to train them. So that's too long, no point in giving them F16's.

Rather than, let's just train them on F16's in case something drastic changes in the future and they need them ASAP. Or maybe when the war is over they will need modern fighter jets and they can't buy them from Russia anymore. So at least they will be trained for that.

There will be a big investment in Ukraine when the war is over. It will also have to be rearmed for defensive purposes. If most Ukrainian soldiers are trained exclusively on leopards, it means it makes sence for Ukraine to refill their army with leopards. Nice little boost in the future for Germany.

Same will happen for fighter jets, I'm surprised France/Sweden or the US are not jumping in there offering training on their jets to get the contracts after the war etc...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316511#Comment_120316511

I don’t think you understand the concept of failed state.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316537#Comment_120316537

I don't understand your sentence.

Both Russia and Ukraine might have broken economies, broken societies, broken political systems, worn out from the brutality, cost and loss of this conflict. That's with Ukraine playing a blinder and being the side likely to win.

There is a quote about Russian history having the line "and then it got worse".

It might not be Somalia failed, but it could be Syrian style failed State.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316540#Comment_120316540

Corrected, thanks.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316542#Comment_120316542

It's dodgy business getting people to correct a sentence, the person doing it nearly always has a mistake themselves. I think I got away with it though. 🫣

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316511#Comment_120316511

I know what you mean, but it is all so pointless and wasteful, "progress" becomes just the wrong term to use.

So if Bakhmut (or other towns they are attacking) fall they take another piece of Ukraine by burning through "expendible" soldiers (this can't go on forever), making the whole area into a desert (which they will get no benefit from) and driving almost all people that were living there out as well.

Russia has a declining population which is being further reduced by this war. That will get worse if Putin has to move Russia even further into war economy mode and there is press ganging of men aged 18-40 or so to keep the war in Ukraine going at current tempo.

Biggest country on Earth that (IMO) already cannot exploit all the territory and resources it had (before Putin started land grabbing in Ukraine) because of too few people/brain drain/population decline.

The whole thing is utterly brain dead.

As for Ukraine becoming a failed state under the strains this war is imposing on society I hope the US/European/other countries aiding it will provide enough support to prevent that outcome.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316253#Comment_120316253

Climate Change deniers, too.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315942#Comment_120315942

If they had had more aircraft and attack helicopters, the attackers might have been easily suppressed and that might not have happened. Reminds me of that other great tragedy, the medical workers who died in the steel works in Mariupol.

Azovstal has already lost 15 young women - military and medical workers.

One of them was Olena Kushnir, the last doctor treating the wounded of the Azov battalion and civillians in the Azovstal steel works. Her husband, also in the military, was kiiled earlier. She managed to have her 7 year old son evacuated while she stayed to do her job and was killed in one of the attacks on the plant.

https://en.lb.ua/news/2022/04/17/13243_military_medic_olena_kushnir_killed.html

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316297#Comment_120316297

Sometimes, I will strip out the audio from a clip before I upload it if the soundtrack is too obnoxious or there is a copyright hit on it. See how kind I am.. ;-)

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316343#Comment_120316343

From your post:- Quote:

There are about 75000 Ukrainian refugees in Ireland.

A poll taken in 2011 showed 49% of Ukrainians had relatives in Russia (that's 36,000 at a minimum)

I am sure when their relatives are forcibly conscripted against their will, trucked to the front lines and killed, the majority of refugees in Ireland will certainly not be rejoicing in the death of their family members.

It seems the majority of boards members will though. UnQuote.

This last line is where we disagree, and from it all my posts stem. I've clearly stated my opinion on the war, opinions that I've held since the beginning of this thread, but I don't believe that every poster on here is a blood thirsty maniac, calling for the death of every Russian.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316540#Comment_120316540

I don’t understand your entire post. In the context of being invaded what’s the point you are trying to make?

Back to failed state…The Ukrainian government has the overwhelming backing of its people. Now, don’t throw around terms you don’t understand.

TIA.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316483#Comment_120316483

Yes I do, otherwise they wouldn't be asking for them. It would only take between 3-6 months to train their already, highly skilled pilots. As someone else suggested, their reservists could then be put in the SU-27s and Mig 29s. Ukraine likely has a few hundred pilots and I think around 200 planes, though that is a bit rubbery due to being highly classified.

They have a lot more than I think most people imagine.

All of Ukraine's top military people, From Zelenskyy on down, have been practically screaming for western fighter jets for more than 8 months. They aren't a bunch of Walter Mitty's stupidly flying kites of impracticality. They know what their resources and capabilities are and they are fighting for their very existence, they aren't going to waste their time asking for stuff that would drain their resources and actually be a hindrance. The west should give them the credit they truly deserve.

Larbre34

I don't think the West doubts either their commitment or their capability.

The West is quite obsessively preoccupied with giving Ukraine just enough gear to give them a chance to roll the Russians back, without giving them too much gear so that they start World War III by proxy.

And that ain't nothin.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316386#Comment_120316386

What was or wasn't said is vague other than to do with East Germany and irrelevent really -> it was superseded by the signed NATO-Russia Founding Act in 1996 which implicitly accepts the right of countries to join NATO and lays out ground rules for what installations \ weapons systems can be permanently deployed therein.

SortingYouOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316628#Comment_120316628

Ah there are a few on here who sound like they'd be very comfortable in a skull and bones cap with the leather trenchcoat.

The problem with online forums is that most people going to the effort to use them usually have very strong opinions on whatever they're discussing. There's very little room levelness, it's either this camp or you're in that camp. It's been decided that there are two camps and you'll do well to make sure you don't cross foot in the wrong one. Obviously real life isn't as black and white, with most people finding themselves in the grey as it should be. Anyone I talk to in real life is horrified by this invasion but they're certainly not out for the blood of civilians.

It wasn't long ago that a prominent poster on here said "Russia needs to burn". I don't know about anyone else but if I started going around saying things like that to friends, family, work etc., i'd probably be lonely very quick because that extremism doesn't translate across into civil life. Not to say that it can't and that's always a danger but we're a long way from that off screen.

Seanmadradubh

https://phillipspobrien.substack.com/p/weekend-update-18-the-end-of-the?sd=pf

Just a little something for folks who might think the "fall of Bakhmut" would be a loss for Ukraine and/or a victory for Russia.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316849#Comment_120316849

I think that particular quote was rather in the context of this particular war, where the bombing etc. is all one sided iE; Happening mainly in Ukraine, in ww2, for example, it ended up with Germany being heavily bombed into submission. But for some time before the end, Germans were well aware that they were in a war, and they knew full well that they were losing. Now due to the tight restrictions Putin has imposed, while Russians know that there's a war, they are not aware of the full extent and implications of it. So Putin still can do a lot of covering up. But if Moscow, St Petersburg etc, were being regularly bombed it would have an effect on the Russian population. Could make them revolt or give Putin more support. If they see that they are losing, then its curtains for Putin, but so far they've been spared the horrors of war., and that's what I think that poster meant.