Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525799#Comment_121525799

I'd love to believe that, would be a bad day for the Russians. Probably as bad, if not worse than when Ukraine shot down 5 planes and helicopters within Russia in a day.

TheValeyard

Didn't they previously sneak a Patriot battery near the front? Possibly they've done it again.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525857#Comment_121525857

It was claimed but I get the feeling the patriots are in very secure locations rather than being moved from the front and back again

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525799#Comment_121525799

Drip drip drip.

Whatever about tanks and tracked vehicles - I'm not sure Russia will be dusting off their WW2+ aircraft to plug the gaps being caused.

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525864#Comment_121525864

F16 or another Western fighter craft?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525857#Comment_121525857

I'm not sure if they sneaked it close to the border or was just placed within range, but seeing as how there hasn't been any more shootdowns like that in the area that Patriot system has probably been moved.

But Germany was due to deliver an additional patriot system this month and the south badly needs more AA. Maybe they found a nice home for it! Would be a nice way to christen the new system!

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525494#Comment_121525494

"The usual suspects" are people who understand what a refugee is.

It's no surprise the only people calling for Ukrainians to head home and "do their bit" are the same people who are anti immigration.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525596#Comment_121525596

And I reject that completely. I repeat it is a primary duty of a citizen to both support their country and to defend it if required. That has always been the case, it's one of the things that defines citizenship/ membership of a group. There's no point in being a citizen of a state unless you are prepared to defend it. It is a fundamental moral duty.

And that applies to those Ukrainians here who can be of service to their state and who are required there. How can they possibly hold their heads up, if they know they are leaving the huge responsibility of defending their state to friends, family and neighbours back in Ukraine??

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525549#Comment_121525549

Your support for Ukraine is indeed admirable, not.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525987#Comment_121525987

There is absolutely no problem with us sheltering genuine Ukrainian war refugees from war torn areas, subject to limits we can manage - the elderly, women with children and children. No problem at all, assuming this is on a temporary basis until the crisis has passed. That is common decency.

It is a very different matter to have Ukrainian citizens who are of an age and can be of service to their country to be asked to return.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526047#Comment_121526047

Show me where refugee status is based on age or gender.

You have no support with this view, especially because it stems from a bigoted anti immigration beliefs.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526100#Comment_121526100

I think you're mixed up - we're discussing war refugees here, not 'immigrants' as in international asylum seekers etc. or those who come in with work permits etc.

Do you agree that it is the duty of able bodied Ukrainian citizens that are eligible and wanted for service, to return and serve their country?? And if not, why not?

astrofool

Anyone saying that countries would deport people to be conscripted are utterly delusional and likely highly xenophobic, it's just not something that will happen in this reality.

They should be responded to as such.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526146#Comment_121526146

And how do you force them to fight? Do you do what the Russians do, send them to the front with a gun/ammo and shoot them if they refuse to fight?

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526175#Comment_121526175

They should be banned as they know they're trolling.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526029#Comment_121526029

A little cop on goes a long way

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526024#Comment_121526024

It is not a primary duty of citizens to protect their country

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526146#Comment_121526146

No I do not agree.

I do not agree that whatever laws or drafts apply to Ukrainian citizens in Ukraine also apply to Ukrainian citizens outside of Ukraine. To think so is ridiculous.

I do not agree that it's Ireland's responsibility to enforce the rules of a completely different country to it's citizens who happen to live here. To think so is ridiculous.

Furthermore, Ukrainian citizens who disagree with their country's draft laws have a right to seek refugee status and this has already been demonstrated by Syrian nationals fleeing their civil war.

Finally, I have spelled this out multiple times to you, and it's clear that your intent is not some high-minded ideal to secure the future of Ukraine. You have quite bigoted views towards immigration and refugees, and this argument is just a smokescreen to promote these views.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525420#Comment_121525420

I want Ukraine to defeat Russia. That's my motivation. If Ukraine wants people for the war effort to return the EU countries should oblige. If Ukraine wants woman and children back for economic and social reasons again we should oblige. The latter can't see happening anytime soon although a large chunk of Ukraine is not currently a warzone with a very low danger risk.

I swear some people want Ukraine to slowly bleed out. Everything possible need's to be done. If western Europe and America gave them full support they might not be making this plea. But we didn't give full support and now they need some people back.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526024#Comment_121526024

I repeat it is a primary duty of a citizen to both support their country and to defend it if required.

That's jingoistic, militaristic fantasy: outline the place in our constitution that speaks of citizens' "duty". If it's that foundational you should be able to show where it says we should. I'd hope at least for all your talk, you've tried joining the army reserves?

Now if you wanna talk Social Contract then that's another matter, and a different set of principles by which we should operate - but there's no guiding principle in Ireland that demands its people take up arms in the case of defence. That's the army's job; hello Social Contract. Same with policing, banking, health services etc. Defence too.

And it's simply a reductive, willful ignorance of the reality of war. Maybe the reason why Ukrainian men are sitting here and not at home is because of a different set of human emotional responses to your own boastful sense of what people "should" do in times of crisis. Easy to talk big, you got nothing to lose.

Feel free to hand out white lilies to the refugees though, if you feel they're cowards. Cos that's what you're saying without saying it. Let's be truly honest here, and forget the chest puffing about your Call of Duty fantasies.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526391#Comment_121526391

Rubbish - the duties of a citizen vary a little from state to state but the fundamentals are and have been since the year dot -

Obey the law

Pay your taxes

Defend your country

It is a fundamental duty - it is appalling to think that you may be an Irish citizen but that you would not help defend us if we were invaded. Shocking abrogation of your responsibilities.

Nothing to do with your facile Call of Duty. I met men when I was a child who had their legs blown off in WW1 and who sat on their stumps. So I know of the horrors of war since a young age. But at least these men had the guts and the moral fibre to enlist, unlike the likes of some posters here.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526295#Comment_121526295

You can spell out all you want. Let's get to the next question:

Do you want Ukraine to prevail in the war? Yes or no, straight answer.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526524#Comment_121526524

I am not a Ukrainian citizen - it is not my duty to defend Ukraine. It is morally correct though to support Ukraine.

Are you a Ukrainian citizen? If so, it is your duty to do your service if you are eligible and wanted there.

Do you want Ukraine to prevail in the war? Yes or no, straight answer.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526463#Comment_121526463

Yes.

But Furze, let's not cloud the issue. You're more concerned about the number of foreigners in the country and you'll support any measure that reduces this number.

That's why you're so eager to send someone elses sons and husbands off to war.

Reminds me of Alfrid Lickspittle in the Hobbit screaming "to the death" and then running away from the enemy.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526463#Comment_121526463

Stop with the BS and that stupid question do you want Ukraine to prevail....

There's still 37 million people in Ukraine as we speak, there is absolutely zero reason for anyone here or in Ukraine to demand we deport thousands of young people and men of a particular age to fight a war that they have zero interest in , just as much as you have no want to go die in a cold,wet trench without even the basic of equipment

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526569#Comment_121526569

This is a thread about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. If you want to discuss immigration and refugees, there are two other very active threads in which you participate I believe.

Please stop trying to conflate what I'm saying here with your views on 'foreigners' as you put it. I have absolutely no interest in debating 'foreigners' with you on this thread. It's the wrong place. We are discussing Ukraine and Russia and the needs of Ukraine both in manpower and equipment and finances.

Now, given that you wish Ukraine to prevail in this war that Russia has imposed on them, how do you propose that they do this without sufficient able bodied manpower? Citizens that are needed to sustain the war effort both on the front lines but also importantly working in supplies and logistics. Even just keeping the lights on and roads open.

How do they do this without sufficient able bodied manpower?

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526439#Comment_121526439

LOL.

And if it's that fundamental you can point to where it says in the Constitution about citizens' obligations during wartime. It's there in the 2nd amendment of the US constitution, albeit as "armed militia" and all the unfortunate societal impact that has caused. You say it's a core tenet yet our own founding politicians saw fit not to include it. Why's that? Why do we not just have conscript armies if it's that much of a core of living.

Spoiler: 'cos it isn't.

Second spoiler: I respect the men fighting in Ukraine and I respect the men who left. It's not black and white, they're not mutually exclusive thought processes.

Plus, you're quoting World War 1? Hoo-boy. That's not the silver bullet you think it is: being as it was one of the more egregious examples of shocking wasted life and pointless war. And the origin of "shell shock" as the modern understanding of what war does to the psyche. I'd be surprised if those men would have done it all over again, knowing what we know now about that war of imperial cousins.

Though if you're chatting to WW1 vets in your youth it tells me what age you must be - and makes it a little more galling you'd so flippantly witter on about what Young Men should or shouldn't do with their lives - all in the name of "the country". Easy to be a smartphone samurai when you're too old to be of use militarily, in a country that hasn't seen an invasion since the Vikings. Beware the hot air of old men.

Those men in WW1 didn't get the choice to have "guts", what a crass reductive thing to say: they were conned into enlisting, often brow-beaten by people like you wielding white feathers - if they weren't conscripted as they were elsewhere - then lead to slaughter on an industrial scale by old men talking of honour & glory. Sounds familiar? Maybe you didn't listen too closely to those veterans, for all your talk. Thos Boys often did all they could to get out of the trenches; if they were lucky they could go home injured, if they were unlucky they were shot for cowardice. Maybe read "All Quiet on the Western Front" before talking up the guts of WW1 vets.

Don't lecture people on "moral fibre" without perhaps having the self-awareness to interrogate what it is to be a refugee, why a man or woman might flee a war zone rather than stand and fight and die in a ditch screaming for your mother. If you wanna hate migrants, or call them cowards, then be open about it without hiding behind Big Talk about defending one's country - that's no better, and no more rational than the bartstool bore rattling on about what professional footballers' performances.

Now. I'm done here; it's just making me laugh at this stage you're so full of jinogistic zeal - and you can have the last word to vent, as I won't see it thanks to the Ignore function.

LOL.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526657#Comment_121526657

I know there are other threads, and that's how I know your ulterior motive.

I'm not going to debate an impossibility.

If you can show that any country could legally deport legitimate refugees to their country of origin, and if you can show that Ukraine is so badly in need of manpower they need to extradite their citizens then I'll debate it.

Right now it's just a fairytale in your head that plays well with your views on refugees and immigrants.

Wolf359f

So deport Ukrainian men if Ukraine requests them to be deported? I can't see many, if any counties agreeing to that. I don't even think Ukraine would ask countries, or put them in that position.

What's next, prevent any Russian citizens from going back to Russia for fear they will fight against Ukraine? Can't be allowing Russians home if we want Ukraine to win or something like that.

I certainly don't begrudge any citizen (from Russia or Ukraine) who flees to avoid being conscripted.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526676#Comment_121526676

So clearly you think it's OK to flee Ukraine (or Russia) to avoid enlisting. I asked you how you propose they prevail in this war without sufficient able bodied manpower. And you wash your hands of it.

If that's the attitude, then maybe the 'west' would be best to acknowledge this and withdraw all useful support from Ukraine. Why help a country whose own citizens are not prepared to stand up and defend it???

Is that the answer you really want??