Russia - threadbanned users in OP

weisses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779028#Comment_121779028

Did they leave men and equipment behind ?

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121778997#Comment_121778997

I'm a realist about this conflict, I celebrate genuine Ukrainian successes but don't stick my head in the sand and pretend everything is going well and victory is in sight when it clearly isn't. Some people don't like that, it's their problem.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779072#Comment_121779072

Hopefully not.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779069#Comment_121779069

Futile defence=it failed. Basic English, not that hard to understand. Of course I don't think Ukraine should let Russia take the country without a fight, nothing I wrote even remotely suggests that. But both Russia and Ukraine have had a really bad 12 months militarily, only the deluded on both sides pretend differently

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779025#Comment_121779025

I expect the West and Russia have a clear agreement: no (Western-backed) assassination of Putin and no assassination of Zelensky. We know there is constant talk behind the scenes and this is presumably a mutually agreed red line.

Whether the Ukrainians have to stick to that I don't know

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779104#Comment_121779104

But that's the nature of defence, you fortify a position and hold it for as long as possible, when the time comes you retreat to your next fortified position forcing your attacker to bleed men/equipment trying to take that position and repeat when that too gets too difficult to hold.

If you're fighting for your country and trying to stop an invader from overrunning it then of course it's not a "futile defence"

You say "I don't think Ukraine should let Russia take the country without a fight" but when they do fight you call it futile.

weisses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779104#Comment_121779104

Brush up on your basic English yourself would be my suggestion .... futile means "having no result or effect : useless"

So why was defending Adviika and Bakhmut to the extend Ukraine did a useless exercise from a military perspective ?

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779124#Comment_121779124

You are talking about Avdiivka then it was futile, the Ukrainians let themselves get into a position of defending on 3 sides or someone was quoted as saying "360 degrees" which used to be called surrounded in old money. Thats just being stubborn and is bad strategy. The Ukrainians need to fall back to lines they can better defend and get out of places like Robtoyne or that other place where they were/are on the wrong side of the river

zv2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121778967#Comment_121778967

They probably were, to some degree, a spent force until they got the N. Korean shells and Ukraine's supply was down 30% because of Gaza.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779124#Comment_121779124

Okay, let's call it a failed defence, if it comes down to definitions.

As for "futile", a matter of perspective. We know from reports that even within there's lots of disagreement about whether Bakhmut was wise or a colossal waste (concerns both sides)

I.am.Putins.raging.bile.duct

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779104#Comment_121779104

Anytime you can hold the enemy in one position for a year is never a failure. Better to whither them down than having them going all directions raping and pillaging. Ukrainians will just fall back and let the russians crash against another defence to be slaughtered just like bahkmut.

Its not ideal for the Ukrainians but its the best worst option and costliest fir the russians.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779140#Comment_121779140

Bad tactics, getting surrounded and having to retreat is at best ineffective, at worst futile, certainly not a smart defence. We've seen it with the Russians countless times, and the Ukrainians more than a few times now. Both armies have made big mistakes, only the deluded on both sides still deny it

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779174#Comment_121779174

I called the summer offensive a failure during the summer, Im happy with my armchair generalling thank you very much. Its simple logic here, you never want to be fighting on 3 sides unless its part of breakout. You do realise in the drone age and the landscape they are fighting in that there is no where to hide, everything can be observed and resupply is difficult.

the only way attrition can work in Ukraine's favour is where they are defending (Surovikin style) and Russia is actively attacking.

TheValeyard

This this is a good long read of the situation and the future.

https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1758789195189846463?t=nIza1kXSrdUKDOIQDsp_-A&s=19

weisses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779183#Comment_121779183

You realy don't seem to have a clue about military tactics when reading your reply. But I will try once more, What is bad about a tactic that will force an attacking Army to spend/commit huge amount of resources to an area which the defending army can defend relatively easy, thereby preventing the attacking army the possibility to utilise their forces in other regions.

Of course both armies made mistakes.. A Battlefield is fluid, to many variables,

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779183#Comment_121779183

You're still misusing the word futile, you should really stop digging on that one.

At worst, Ukraine could have better organised the fallback, militarily, russia came out a lot worse (as in Bakhmut).

macraignil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779183#Comment_121779183

Not claiming to be any way expert in military tactics but if one side can get the other to concentrate their attacks on one area and suffer huge losses in trying to take that area while their forces fall back in a well planned way that allows continued heavy losses in the attacking forces it sounds to me to be actually a good tactic and an effective way of draining the offensive force of putin's troops while limiting the damage to large parts of Ukraine which could have suffered more if the offensives by putin's troops had not been channeled towards these fortified strongholds. I'm not going to claim mistakes have not been made by the armed forces of Ukraine but they are fighting for the survival of their people and not fighting would simply see more widespread murder and genocide in their country so on balance more Ukrainian lives will be saved even if the defense they put up to putin's terrorism is not perfect.

zv2

Intermission:

https://twitter.com/WillowMantis/status/1758625775874359373

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779220#Comment_121779220

So now instead of Russia will collapse in 2 weeks or 2 months you're giving a time limit of 10 years? Nice shifting of the goalposts. I think it's you who needs your morning coffee...

Funnily enough you're now saying what I've always said: Ukraine will only regain its rightful territory when Putin is either dead or gone. Might be 2 years, might be 10 years. We'll see. Can't come soon enough

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779237#Comment_121779237

its not about territory lost or gained as such, that just the end conclusion to things, it more about who is fighting at an advantage or disadvantage. The Ukrainians were clearly fighting at a disadvantage during the summer, and in Avdiivka they have been fighting at a disadvantage ever since they had to defend on 3 sides.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121779274#Comment_121779274

Ukraine needs to keep fighting, and to choose its battles wisely, but what it really needs is change within Russia. Which means Putin dead or gone or both and something better to replace him.

Many here seem extremely pessimistic about that, I actually hope it'll be possible

rogber

How long will the world let Russia be like this?' Zelenskiy asks world leaders in Munich

“How long will the world let Russia be like this?” That was the question Volodymyr Zelenskiy asked world leaders on Saturday as he underlined the threat Russia’s war poses to nations beyond Ukraine.

Speaking at the the Munich Security Conference, Zelenskiy underlined that Ukraine can still win the war and that it was vital for the world that it does. He called for security to be made a “reality again”, warning that “there is no one for whom the ongoing war in Europe does not pose a threat”.

He warned that Ukraine’s shortage of weapons was strengthening Russia. “Unfortunately, keeping Ukraine in an artificial deficit of weapons, particularly in deficit of artillery and long-range capabilities, allows Putin to adapt to the current intensity of the war,” he said.

He concluded his speech with a plea: “Please, do not ask Ukraine when the war will end. Ask yourself, why is Putin still able to continue it.”

.....

Powerful words from Zelensky, let's hope the Western leaders, while paying tribute to Navalny, honour him by giving Ukraine more support

nacho libre

The problem with the bleed the Russians strategy in places like Avdviika is Putin has the Stalin mindset. Unless the war economy reaches a cliff edge or some sort of popular revolt takes place in Russia , Putin will just keep going with the current strategy which is to outlast the Ukranians by sheer force of numbers. Unless the Americans give Ukraine all it needs to win the war, then it's difficult to see any outcome other than an eventual negotiated settlement to this conflict.

RGARDINR

I suppose it depends on what Ukraine lost in terms of manpower in adviika and if a lot of equipment was left behind and wasn't at least put out of commission before they left then it was a hasty retreat. I just hope they didn't lose a crazy amount of there crack troops in the last few days as I can see that they were sent in only within the last wk.

Timberrrrrrrr

Great news if true

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1758810170098909255?t=S8NbeFeS93F3DENPrZUpkw&s=19