Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Gatling

The biggest threat to putin is an open and successful democracy 200km from the Kremlin, it's similar in a way china won't ever allow the Koreas to be reunited as one state democracy and economic success, with the ability to produce electronics, infrastructure, motor vehicles , shipping,

They don't need guns but they both fear democracy

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548645#Comment_118548645

Putin's behaviour against Georgia is indeed predictive of his behaviour elsewhere in the post-Soviet space. 100% agreement from me. What we disagree on is on two things - first, you personalise it to Putin. Second you absolve the US and EU/NATO from provoking that predicative behaviour.

1 - Putin is not the true power in Russia. He is an avatar of the Russian leadership. Putin himself proclaimed that it did not matter who was US president, the US leadership remained the same. Depose Putin, and some other figure blessed by the Russian leadership arises to replace him. "The West" might celebrate a short term victory. A US President might declare that the new Russian leader is someone they can do business with. But ultimately the same conflicts arise - no sane Russian leadership will permit the US and NATO to hold a knife to the throat of Russia. Get over that fact.

2 - All of Russia's behaviour is perfectly predictable. Indeed it was predicted by George Keenan (who would **** all over your post-Soviet tourist credentials btw) who in 1997 warned US policy makers against extending NATO membership east into Russia's backyard for fear of sparking a Russian backlash. The Russians are reacting entirely predictably to a guy who understood their fears 25 years ago. The pretence up until now has been that NATO expansion against Russia has been in the interests of former Soviet states. Now when the Ukrainian president is saying to calm things down, this is not in our interests "the West" continues to try provoke a war with Russia. NATO increasingly looks like a hammer in search of nails.

The US and EU/NATO made a play for Ukraine in 2014 by supporting the overthrow of the democratically elected Ukrainian government. The Russian annexation of Crimea and their support for Russian separatists in the east of Ukraine were essentially a desperate and costly attempt to retain their strategic interests. Russia has repeatedly claimed they would settle on the basis of the Minsk agreements which the Ukrainian government signed up to but have since refused to implement.

Russia has nothing to gain from a further invasion of Ukrainian territory. Ukraine is not going to join NATO - NATO members are not going to accept an immediate war with Russia to reclaim Crimea or Donetsk. So it has already achieved it's strategic red lines. A Russian invasion only lives in the imagination of the media trying to drum up a wider war against Russia. With the Ukrainian president throwing cold water on that narrative it is time for russophobes to give it up. It is over. No crusade against Russia in 2022. Try again in 2023.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548716#Comment_118548716

I certainly absolve the EU and its institutions. If Ukraine wants to choose an economic and political course that includes EU membership as a medium to long-term goal, I believe it should be applauded. In many ways it would be a very natural positive economic and political addition to the bloc and like Poland, would completely transform the lives of its citizens.

Now, the above is an ideological disaster for Putin (and there's no other way to do it but personalize it, Putin sets the tone and tempo of Russian policy overwhelmingly whether you want to admit it or not, it's not a liberal democracy). Not NATO membership (which does not naturally follow), the act of economic integration to the West.

Putin's allergic reaction to the EU package in 2014 tells a lot. It still hasn't reconciled itself to the fact it is a poor (literally and figuratively) option for its neighbours to gravitate towards. Coercion and a little brother role in an energy sick economy, vs the largest economic bloc in the world with all the advantages on offer.

Now, Ukraine's gravitation West may give Putin the sh*ts, but that in itself in no way can be pinned on the EU as a provocation, and I think it's cheap to do so. Ukraine has the right to choose its path and only has to look a few short kilometers east to Poland to see what's possible. If I was a young Ukrainian, I know what I'm choosing on the menu.

NATO membership is a separate matter, I think we can all agree that membership for Ukraine is many years away and NATO civil servants would tell you as much.

Much like Brexit is sometimes pinned as a symptom of Britain's reaction to its reduced standing in the world after the loss of their empire, so too is Putin's jealous reaction to former Soviet states looking west is a symptom of Russia's denuded influence in world and regional affairs. That may be personally traumatic to a Russian nationalist like Putin, but it's something he needs to reconcile himself with.

Ukraine as a political reality, will almost certainly never be anything other than Western institution orientated from here on out. Whether Putin has accepted that in his mind is a different matter. It deserves to be supported, and Russian military coercion in an attempt to change the political orientation of Ukraine or divert it from its freely chosen path should be faced down. Thankfully, that's what we're seeing.

EDIT: Oh, and I resent the inferral that I am in any way a Russophobe. That's pretty low-ball. At the risk of sounding pretentious, I'd invite you around to take a look at my bookshelf, which has more than a few Russian authors on it. Big fan of Russian movies and music as well. So I'd place a bet that I'm more familiar with Russian culture than many of the low-key right-wing Putinistas populating the thread.

jmreire

When it comes to the internet and cybersecurity I'd say that very little gets by the Kremlin and the FSB.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548716#Comment_118548716

What s load of rubbish. The only knife by the EU/ NATO held to Russia throat as is democracy.

Russia was never a truly great power. It has and always had a bully syndrome. After WW2 it was accidentally handed an empire. American economic aid during WW11 allowed it to build its military strength. In the closing months of the was Stalin was willing to scarfice a million soldiers to get to Berlin first and to overrun other counties. The US was not willing to scarfice it's soldiers to win that race even though Churchill pointed out what the outcome would be.

In 1945 after WW2 the population of Russia was 170 million, the population of the USA was 140 million. After WW2 Russia spend it's time suppressing the population of the countries it took over.

The US was handed a broken Europe. The Marshall plan revitalised Europe so that by 1957, six states created the EEC. In the east it rebuild Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and a few other economies there The rest is history. The EEC and the US are the two greatest economic blocks in the world.

Now the population of Russia is about 145 million. Up until 2010 it's population was declining as it's birth rate was below replacement rate (1.6 children/female) However even now it is only by an increasing population age that it's population is increasing. Since WW11 the US population has increased to 330 million. The EU has a population of 450 million

When WW11 ended it spend it time trying to match US military spending. Putin's making the same mistake. Instead of developing its economy it's destroyed it. When the USSR broke up the newly independent states looked to the West, to democracy and economic development, not to a failed formula.

Russia is once more looking inwards like it has for the last 500 years. It thinks because it's a huge nation size wise that it should be able to dictate terms to smaller nations around it. But it has nothing to offer these nations. Putin's objectives are to install a pro Russian leader in these states and then keep him there by the suppression and military force.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118545874#Comment_118545874

Ah that Felix was a cool cat...the Russian Felix that I speak about, was a cat of a completely different sort!! here's a hint, try Iron Felix in your search.😊

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547906#Comment_118547906

I hope your trolling and not serious lol 😂

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548328#Comment_118548328

US had nothing to do with Ukraine,it all started with Russias trade wars against its neigbours long before 2014.

This lead to Ukraine looking for other options,as in a EU deal.

Problem was that Russias puppet president went for a Russian deal instead and thats when the troubles started.

Let me Quote EU commisoner Stefan Fule statement from 2013.

Commissioner Füle, in his statement strongly condemned different types of pressure exercised by Russia on the European Union’s Eastern neighbors, especially Armenia, Moldova and Ukraine. He said that it was unacceptable to use threats like misuse of energy pricing, artificial trade obstacles and cumbersome customs procedures, against ex-Soviet states which are seeking closer ties with the EU. He was convinced that such actions clearly breached the principles to which all European states had subscribed, recalling that in the Helsinki Principles of the OSCE, signatories had committed themselves to respect each country’s right to define freely and conduct as it wished its relations with other states in accordance with international law.

MFPM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548101#Comment_118548101

Oh I think it was clear exactly what he was saying, interesting when asked for sources he scarpered.

MFPM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548175#Comment_118548175

OK my bad re Clint Eastwood, it's worse it was Mel Gibson. Anyway, why would I research it, you introduced the obligation is on you to spell out it's relevance to your argument, which you still haven't do so why you'd expect me to articulate it for you is beyond me.

2. Well thankfully you've exhibited some acceptance that if someone hasn't been to a place or experienced an event they can still have an opinion based on research, reading etc....it's a pity some of your like-minded posters wouldn't adopt your approach. Of course of someone actually was present during events they can offer a perspective that others couldn't but that's also open to a subjective bias, is it not?

3. If the invasion is 'ongoing' why does Blinken, Biden Truss etc keep saying it's imminent?

MFPM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548189#Comment_118548189

You clearly don't understand the concept of discussion send debate, I have mentioned US (you can't even get that right) imperialism because its relevant to the discussion irrespective of how much deflection you want to engage in. Iraq was used a couple of times to dispel the myth of the benign influene of the US ...do keep up!

MFPM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548897#Comment_118548897

What?

MFPM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548565#Comment_118548565

You had done so well in your last post, now you're back with this nonsense. I've never lived in those countries, but as you acknowledged earlier that's not a prerequisite to have an opinion. The logic of this line of argument by you and others is so utterly bizarre...there are IIRC 180+ nations that make up the UN and unless one has 'lived' in them their opinion on those countries is somehow less valid than someone who spent a year in a place. One of your like-minded posters mentioned North Korea earlier fairly sure he/she hasn't been there, funny enough he wasn't challenged about that...

MFPM

Well lads, another day dawns and no invasion...it's as if there isn't going to be one...time will tell. I mean could all the lads here with travel experience in EE and Russia be misreading the situation, surely not given their self professed greater knowledge than the rest of us? 😉

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548101#Comment_118548101

This is when you know someone has been completely bought and sold by US led propaganda.

If some criminal entity in the US or Europe was hacking into things and causing havoc, well that's exactly what would be reported. Ask yourself how often have you ever heard of large criminal entities like the mafia in America being directly linked to whitehouse actions around the world?

Despite the fact that we know America is one of the most corrupt nations on earth, from business all the way up to their politics. You heard nothing about Russian collusion in the whitehouse, until they elected a president that the press didn't approve of. So their president is only dirty if and when they decide to report it as such.

Criminal elements in Russia are hacking into important institutions, and the western press just assume that they have a direct line to the Kremlin. Why? Because it suits them to play that narrative. No evidence needed, because they know most unthinking western people will just assume it must be true.

These strange people in the east must automatically be less trustworthy, right? And people in the west must automatically be holier than thou, right? It's actually unabashed racism, which people in the west are quite happy to propagate.

And you wonder why the likes of Russia permanently have their defenses up against America and the west? lol

Snooker Loopy

I think a large part of the reason the Russia propagandists hate NATO so much is because NATO put a stop to the Serbs' genocide of the Kosovars in 1999.

The Russians and the Serbs are forever allies and Russia lovers don't like it when the Serbs don't get their way.

Even when that "getting their way" meant genocide.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549089#Comment_118549089

The F117 shootdown must be what they use as bedtime story in Serbia

listermint

It could be argued the Euro Finals in 2014 in Poland and the Ukraine really pressed and impressed on Ukraine what the EU was doing for Poland in terms of advancing prosperity.

This thread is literred with those that are simply anti EU and use that as a crux to batter Ukraines own decisions of who and how they trade. Its Ukraines choice who they deal with as much as it was the UKs choice what they did. Even if it was the stupidest 'trade' decision available.

Freedom of choice.... Its bizarre that people think Putin should have free reign to make decisions all by himself.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549118#Comment_118549118

Thats true,on US forums as well ,and even here,they use every opportunity to batter Biden and Trump,and US as a whole as well,Ukraine being invaded seems like its being ignored completely.

And US being “invaded” by immigrants seems to be top priority before any invasion of Ukraine

cheezums

Reports of blood being moved to Russian army positions which is something you do just before a large attack.

Harryd225

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549026#Comment_118549026

Great post, not that it will make a difference to some of the people on here who believe the only propaganda that exists is Russian.

cheezums

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549026#Comment_118549026

You honestly think hacking gangs in Russia target international organisations without Putin's direction? Come on now.

Elmer Blooker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549513#Comment_118549513

Of course, Putin wants all the information about Paddy Murphy from Carrick on Shannon who’s been waiting for a hip replacement for 25 years.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549549#Comment_118549549

No but they did take critical infrastructure off line that could have been deadly to our citizens.

Putin is my friend he told me he didn't do it

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549549#Comment_118549549

No he dose not. But he gives them free reign to operate with in Russia. They target other governments networks for him and in return he allows them to attract commercial targets that they can extract money from.

Brussels Sprout

Does anyone know, are those 100,000+ Russian troops massed at the Ukrainian border sleeping in tents?

Elmer Blooker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548789#Comment_118548789

Oh the innocence!

I’ll give you a little hint - there’s a very large circular building in Cheltenham.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549765#Comment_118549765

Yes Elmer, its called GCHQ , and the whole world knows about it, ( if I remember it has been mentioned several times in the 007 movies , which leads me to think that its not the real intelligence centre......now that would really be a state secret., and buried deep under a mountain some where in the UK.) The post I was commenting on was its Russian counter part, or the Russian hacking industry.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549738#Comment_118549738

Tents and temporary structures I believe

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549800#Comment_118549800

I wonder how long they can feasibly keep that large a group living in those temporary conditions for. It must be particularly difficult right now with the temperatures.