Kilkenny GAA Thread

Motivator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726592#Comment_117726592

I never said it shouldn’t be discussed, I said Kilkenny people have short memories. Kilkenny fans have been booing players for years, just because fans did it today and you were beaten it’s an issue all of a sudden? I don’t like it and it’s not in keeping with the game but it is what it is. I saw Kilkenny fans nearly crying because Cork fans were waving them out with a minute or two minutes left in extra time. Another silly thing to be bitter over. If you can’t take it, don’t give it.

Anyway, back to the match. I’ve never seen a more brain dead puckout strategy from a Kilkenny team. There looked to be no plan whatsoever either from the forwards or the backs. Time after time Cork players won big high booming balls that came down on top of them. Why was it persisted with? It was miraculous Kilkenny were still in the game despite getting the forwards cleaned out for 70 minutes. As an outsider looking in, the whole thing is gone stale and has been stale for a couple of years. If I was a panel member yesterday I’d be walking away today. How many players that underperformed in 70 minutes were brought back on in extra time? If I was after bursting my arse all year training and dancing to that clowns merry tune only to be deemed not good enough to get on ahead of a fella that already had his chance and didn’t cut the mustard, I wouldn’t be bothered going back again. I never saw Cody doing that before and it looked like the last act of a desperate man.

JJs Left Hand

See, now, as someone who has been moaning about our management team for a few years I actually agree with a lot of what you say but you just ruin the whole thing and expose your bias by calling him a clown.

Also to say our forwards were cleaned out for 70 minutes is complete nonsense considering after about 45 mins we were 19 15 up having hit about 7 or 8 bad wides and butchered at least 1 if not 2 half goal chances. In the first half we actually played quite well in the main. Cork then made a move which meant PW could no longer mark the space in our back line and the whole thing went to **** very very quickly. From where I was it looked like they just committed another man forward but I can't say that with any certainty.

Our management were not capable of reversing the change in momentum, something which has now been happening for a long long time.

Charlie69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728332#Comment_117728332

We usually get a visit from motivator on this thread after a loss... I wouldn't take any notice.

Motivator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728332#Comment_117728332

Funnily enough, as a Waterford man I usually call him a lot worse during games. There were quite a few people seated around us yesterday calling him a clown yesterday (among other things) which is why the name stuck with me. Cody’s popularity and god like status disappears quite quickly among the Kilkenny fans when an L goes down beside the team name in the paper.

dastardly00

A Kilkenny loss makes Motivator happier than a Waterford win. It's quite sad really.

Dionysis

The end result yesterday wasn’t really a surprise, realistically we could easily have been beat by Wexford, and were lucky we didn’t have to meet Galway.

In the first 45 mins, KK were the better team. In that time, we missed ~2-06 from easy enough chances, with approx. another 1-5 from tougher ones.

Had we got those scores, it would have been a different game when Cork came into it, as KK tired and also due to personal changes, in the later 30mins of the game.

We could have moved people around different yesterday and changed the puckout strategy, all of which could have won us the game, but your changing about a few items on an average side to try and win this, when lets be fair, that’s as good as we are, and Cork are better, while still being average to good at the moment. (That will change as the younger players come through).

And yes we found it harder to get frees and yes we were done by the ref at the end, …but we’d only be papering over cracks, we’d have got hammered in the final. But look at that side, its genuinely average to poor, at best, and to be fair, is the weakest Kilkenny team since probably the late 80s, and probably one of the weakest ever.

We will probably never see the likes of the greatest team ever again, and the certainty of winning that came with that team,  but KK teams that went before were always capable of winning the All-Ireland. This team is simply not good enough to win an All-Ireland, and is a good few good players away.

I would put Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Tipp, Cork, Clare ahead of us and Wexford on a par and Dublin behind us. And we get further in the championship as we're in Leinster.

Right now we have dropped from one end of the scale to the other, the side are, average to poor. Wing forwards are the best wing backs we have, relying on players in the mid 30’s to carry this team. Our younger lads are poor (they may be honest, and give their all, but that doesn’t change there ability). Players who beat Limerick in the minor All-Ireland final have dropped away to nothing while that limerick team is hammering everything in front of it at senior.

The players from 28 yrs old to the youngest, are just not near the required levels of talent and drive that’s required for intercounty players. The players coming through are similar, and not having won an U-21 since 2008, and a minor since 2014, is haunting us now. We don’t have the talent and we are not producing it, and worse still, I genuinely don’t think we have the county board who realize the scale of the problem, how underperforming the underage development squad setup is or how poor the management at underage is, to be able to deliver what’s needed in the modern game.

We are at least a decade behind where we need to be, and have yet to admit we have a problem. A number of people who are criticized as ‘naysayers’ have been saying on here for years that this crash is here and getting worse, but falling on deaf ears and replied too with scorn.

But just look where we are, and about to fall off another cliff, when TJ, Walter, Hogan. Buckley leaves.

To put it simply, we are nowhere near good enough, our players coming through are nowhere near good enough, and its not looking like we will be anytime soon either, based on how our underage compare to other counties. Go to the game or ask anyone which counties are streets ahead of everyone else at development squad and underage levels and you’ll hear – Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford and Tipp, and most likely in that order.

And Cork in hurling, is going to be like Dublin are in the football, once they have a development system working well, they will have huge conveyor belt of talent based simply on the numbers in that county, that we will never compete with, unless we get it working now.

In relation to Cody, yes he has his limitations, but he has proven over the years if you give him talent he will make it deliver. He currently has, with some exceptions, average and poor players, who he is getting the most out of, to be fair to him.

Everyone has limitations, and his are probably in the area of making subtle changes during the game to sneak/rob a game, or pull it out of the fire, but that is where we are with this team.

Should he go, I think he should. He’s given everything to hurling and to Kilkenny hurling and has changed the way the game is played, and the honesty to which players are picked and continued to be picked.

It is he, who has the changed the way hurlers are viewed in an intercounty system. Nobody is a star, nobody is beyond being dropped, which has seeped across the GAA world and is emulated by most managers now. He changed the expectation of KK players, from being hungry for the win, to hunger being an expectation from his teams everyday they go out.

That is Cody’s doing, and solely him.

He doesn’t have the players, and I do think he is getting the max out of them. But I don’t think people will realize that until he is gone. Someone might come along a cajole and out tactic a team to win an all-ireland, but we have dropped a long way if we are relying on that, rather than tactics alongside having Quality Players.

johnnyfruitcake

https://twitter.com/hurlingtalk1/status/1424705772831846406?s=19

Good analysis here of what Kilkenny should be doing instead of long balls over and over again.

Charlie69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729042#Comment_117729042

There's an analysis of all the things we do wrong like this after all of our games... how is it possible that management are not picking up on this or not learning from their mistakes?... Its unforgiveable really.

JJs Left Hand

People will cling to that as a reason for hope but we've been playing like that since the league in 2018 and every time the pressure comes on in championship we just ignore it. And while I've been critical of Murphys long puck outs in the past I'll also say that in the second half of our games a lot of our backs tend to turn their backs on him and don't want the ball

usualstripes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728813#Comment_117728813

Decent post but i do have to have to argue with one of your points that Cody is getting the most out of his players.

This cant be right as more often than not we haven't afforded our scoring forwards the advantage of pinging a low ball out wide in front of them to take a relatively easy score. The question to ask yourself is this. Would you rate corks full forward line better than ours yesterday? I would reckon given the right advantageous ball in front of them they would be every bit as clinical as most full forward lines in the country but we don't consistently do this and that's part of our game play. If we have long puck outs then we have to be able to contest these but generally its would be 60/40 in favour of the defender. Our link up play between our half backs and half/full forward lines is crucial here and the bottom line is we just don't do it nearly enough. This comes down to what we do in training and how we are coached. I watched Eoin Murphy yesterday waving away to our corner backs, letting them know it wasnt going short. There are times to land it long but not when we are being bulldozed every time. Its heartbreaking to continually watch it. Give the inside lads a chance for gods sake and let them sink or swim. Im sure we will be swimming far more if we give it right to them and you will see then how the likes of limerick get big scores every match.

Charlie69

Spot on usualstripes.... 👍

JJs Left Hand

During the warm up yesterday there was a lad out moving a tripod around. Anyone know what that was?

prishtinaboy99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727005#Comment_117727005

Beware, remember how Cork turned out with the Fuhrer Frank ruling with an iron fist.

kilkennyboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729486#Comment_117729486

Saw that .imagine it was GPS tracking device seemed to move it beside each group for a minute or so

nklc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729285#Comment_117729285

As a Tipp man , in the Waterford match we had the chance to look up and deliver a dozen balls in front of our full forward line , but instead went for glory and some of the deliveries that were sent in , were at 100 mph . Can’t hurt a back line like that

Comerman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729486#Comment_117729486

Was he a chap with a beard? Could of been Nathan Culleton, does analysis or something

kk.man

I think we can (well I will) sum up;

Are we good enough to win an Ireland (probably not)

Could we have beaten Cork yesterday (probably not)

Could we have got more from that team yesterday (definitely). The clearance strategy from the back lines and puckouts were all wrong. The big high ball has its place but not yesterday. It was very obvious we needed to work that ball thru the lines and low delivery.

Considering we got that part of our game so wrong Cork should have been miles ahead coming into the 1st final whistle. Why were they not? We have a very good full backline and goalkeeper that prevented carnage together with our never say die attutde(thank Cody there). Had the ball being worked up we would have less wides and more goal chances.

Re using subs/players was a mad decision and I do believe (don't know the circumstances why he wasn't) Richie Hogan wasn't introduced earlier. He genuinely looked very dangerous on the ball.

Had we snook a win I don't think kilkenny hurling would be better off by playing Limerick.

usualstripes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730046#Comment_117730046

Again a good post but when you say we probably couldn't have beaten Cork yesterday I have to disagree. Did Cork deserve to win? Absolutely. Did we do our best to try to beat them? Not by a long shot. This doesn't mean we lacked effort. On the contrary we never lack effort and as you say this has all the hallmarks of Cody. Fair play to him on this and the way he will always go down as the best inter county hurling manager of all time. No question about that. The issue I have is that the likes of Billy Ryan, Eoin Cody, Alan Murphy, James bergin and Richie hogan would much prefer to get a low fast ball outside their radius (as we all know a backs nightmare) and create a score rather than try to contest a high ball ( a backs dream as he has the impetus and positiining) or wait for a possible break to get the score. We didn't play to our strengths in the 2nd half or extra time and we paid the price. Simple as that.

brookville

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730554#Comment_117730554

Hit the nail on the head

I seen it time after time yesterday even when players had time the ball going in was a high hanging one.This isn't sour grapes but we have being harping on here a long time about the puckouts and the ball into the attack.

I know people will say we shouldn't be relying on Hogan at his age and this and that but he looked very sharp and was the only sub to score and at least held a bit of ball up.I know cody shows no loyalty but I think the way joey and Richie were treated this year was awful.

blackcard

Looking at positives for the year.

Eoin Cody had a solid year building on last year, needs to be a bit more clinical in going for goals or else taking a point

Billy Ryan had his best game yet. At one stage his marker was standing off him as he was afraid of his pace, practically guaranteeing him a handy point if good ball was delivered in to him

Adrian Mullen had his best match since returning from injury, also worked hard for the team.

James Bergin is an option off the bench which I didn't think he would be at the start of the year

Michael Carey has promise.

Tommy Walsh is improving

Darragh Corcoran has potential

I thought Huw Lawlor had a solid year.

Richie Reid had some decent outings, needs to be more accurate.

Darren Mullen in midfield next year.

Although we reverted to type after the first quarter, there are definite signs that we can play more intelligently and create opportunities at times

WhatsGoingOn2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730554#Comment_117730554

The only player to hit low balls into the forwards was Fogarty. At least 5 or 6 points came from his deliveries. Everyone saying how well Robert Downey played at full back, but when Billy Ryan was getting the right ball played into him low and to the wings, he was leaving Downey for dust and converting his chances. Downey came into his own under the long high ball, which a full back of his size will always gobble up.

kk.man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730554#Comment_117730554

In percentile terms a high ball is a backs ball and I cant understand why we persisted with it, mindboggling.

tbiggertycome

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117731975#Comment_117731975

I agree with all or most of that and I agree our players have shown their able to use the ball intelligently, most do for their clubs too. The issue comes down to practice and training, if you practice this style of play in training and it's demanded by management in training and during matches then players can do it. It takes a bit of time to get used to doing it at the intercounty level (especially when the pressure comes on) your manager has to reassure it's ok to get it wrong but keep trying keep believing in the way of playing. I have no doubt our players can play a smarter game if encouraged and allowed practice this more.

I also think our management gave up on the idea on Sunday and asked for long ball in. At one stage (I think the second water break) they showed the Kilkenny management in a huddle and it looked to me like Conor Phelan was on the outside looking in. From what I've heard he's the reason for the style of play we have been trying this year. I'm sure he was giving his opinion but it didn't look like he was deeply involved from the bit I saw and I could be totally wrong on that. The evidence however is very damning in the kind of ball we played into our forward line for most of the game.

I couldn't believe we didn't try to pressure their puckouts other than the first 10 to 15 mins. Our forwards all looked a bit jaded even from the start. I would have expected manic intensity and we got it for the first 10 mins, if even that. There after a lot of the players that would normally chase down lost causes and get some joy, instead they just let Cork lads saunter up the field and get their passing game going. Cork played far better than us and were the better team on the day but their not the better team. Cork may be better than us in a few years time but not this year but the way we played braindead stuff and allowed them into the game was criminal and then we couldn't see problems that were so obvious to everyone else watching.

If you see what Liam Cahill has done with a Waterford team that couldn't hardly win a game for two years, I think you can see the potential that a top class management team would bring to Kilkenny. We have the managers and tactical thinkers in the county, it's about giving them a chance with these players. Will any of them be able to get the manic work and commitment that Cody gets out of his teams, possibly not but will they make up for it by playing smarter hurling, I think so. While the last day the lads died with their boots on, I don't think any Kilkenny person could describe that display as intense.

Fundamentally I think Cody has probably lost the belief of a lot of the players. I don't think they believe they can win playing his style of game cause I know a lot of his ex-players don't think we can win the old way. I think he's tried to move with the times but because of his reputation for not listening to his selectors advice many top tacticians and potential selectors have steered clear of his set up and for me that tells me all I need to know. In fairness to Cody he brought in Conor Phelan and seems to have allowed him to do good work with the lads but he fundamentally doesn't believe in the new way of playing. So when the pressure comes on he reverts to type and so do the players as they haven't practiced that style enough. They know Cody is not committed to the style so if the pressure comes on they start to play as individuals, trying not to get whipped off. This is the down side of Cody's ruthless style, whipping lads off for underperformance is not an issue that's needed and welcome, it's the fact he feels he doesn't need to explain why to the players afterwards. Lads might say well you should know why your being taken off and where you stand in the pecking order now but even our great players were crippled with fear all you have to do is read their books. The advantage they had was they were playing a far simpler game(and better watch in my opinion). Where they could look after their own corner if things were going to s*** and it would often not be exploited by the opposition.

We now go into the game with a game plan which is great but as soon as the opposition figure it out and change their tactics accordingly we seem incapable of coming up with an alternative to reassert dominance.

I really think it's time for Cody to go, I fear he'll stay and do further damage to his reputation. Some in the media were amazed that some Kilkenny people could question Cody and want a change but I hope there eyes have been opened to the reality of his short comings. I think they will all be too happy to fall back on the narrative of poor Cody sure he just doesn't have the players anymore. My question to them is what has he done to adapt and change his game and to give his players the best chance of winning. In my mind he hasn't don't close to enough for the players, for us to be able to judge if we have players up to the standard or not. We're not playing at the same level as the other teams, in terms of preparation, styles of play and ability to adapt. Yes the players still have to go out and do it but I firmly believe if we coached and trained them up in a style that suits the hurlers we have, then we could and should have beaten Cork and could seriously challenge Limerick on our day.

I used to get angry about this stuff but I'm just resigned now, so I won't get excited too much one way or the other until we have a change at the top, which I don't see coming for many years unfortunately.

Charlie69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733513#Comment_117733513

Excellent post.

tbiggertycome

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729110#Comment_117729110

The fun thing is from what I heard about our new analyst/stat/video man he did show these issues to the management team in his early days but this was never really worked on. It's one thing picking it out and highlighting it but if the people who are in charge don't see it as a problem, then that really is the problem.

Charlie69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733902#Comment_117733902

That's very depressing to hear.

Fred Daly

What would James Mcgarry role as a selector be you have to wonder what he is there for, speaking with Joe Hennessy it was interesting what he said about the whole set up.The clubs are not going to go against Cody but as the man above said players are loosing confidence.

citykat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117731975#Comment_117731975

What? Not a word for James Maher? His form was the biggest positive for me this year.

citykat

I’d like to think if Cody is replaced, we’d go for somebody with a bit more imagination than Liam Cahill. After a poor start he managed a couple of good results. Waterford still ultimately got their arses handed to them by Limerick playing the same turgid style deployed by that arch spoofer Derek McGrath.

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734591#Comment_117734591

Fair enough. With the way the modern game is evolving, you need scores from your half backs and James definitely contributed. Dissapointments for me this year were John Donnelly and Richie Leahy. John is good enough to come back, Richie has had injury problems but seems to run into trouble in congested midfields