Kilkenny GAA Thread

conor05

Throw in for the final is 6.45pm, Nowlan Park, Wednesday 19th.

Billy Ocean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581270#Comment_120581270

Perfect, surprised to be honest taught they would have went for a 7.30 start for TV.

Alonzo Moseley

Well-deserved win by Wex, that bit hungrier and better managed.

The disappointment tonight is accentuated by the fact that this is clearly a very good crop of U20s.

Bad luck with injuries (Drennan and Denis Walsh, and then Shine and Joe Fitz tonight) allied to bad management, doomed a good chance to put back-to-back U20 All Irelands.

Drennan, Dunne and Neary should have good senior futures ahead of then, Lyng(only 18) too.

Clifford's directness and pace should also see him feature. Shine? Who knows at this stage, he’s cursed with injuries.

Saying we just don’t have good underage hurlers is an overreaction to a bad performance/result. This year’s minors are mostly a very average crop with 2/3 good hurlers, but this U20 group has some very good hurlers, irrespective of tonight’s result.

usualstripes

I thought some of our deliveries this evening were very poor. We had done some strong performances but too many not good enough.

Dunne not starting was a poor call. Drennan and Walsh big losses. Its hard for that team not having those 2 at this stage. Wexford were hungrier but we had some shocking wides, especially in the 1st 15 mins of the 2nd half.

All of those lads that hurled this evening will be hurting and it's tough on them and very hard to be overly critical.

Shine wasn't right and we needed corner forwards on song tonight. Ill go back to what I said a few weeks ago about having clinical forwards and if Danny Glennon is not good enough to be starting/coming in for this team then our selection process is really skewed. He was left off the panel to sort out his injury but he's been hurling for the last 2 months now and forgotten about. Some here may disagree with me on this but he would have been a handful tonight fir wexfords full back line. Crazy carry on.

Not trying to push the Tullogher line here but Lar Murphy should also have been on this panel but is not even considered.

On the face of it Wexford deserved the win but there's a lot of poor decisions being made at inter county - county board level all the way up the grades and it was evident this evening. Hopefully these lads can pick it up and drive on with their kilkenny careers.

We're going to be up against a strong Galway team in the leinster minor final. Let's hope that they can do themselves justice.

Mad about baa baas

To my mind there are 2 very separate discussions to be had from last night

1.the u20s as a team competing at u20 were poorly coached and had a number of lads lacking pace and the required skill set

2.the u20s as a feeder team for the senior panel was quite successful. Heary/drennan/Clifford/ dunne..you could make a case for I or 2 more ..I personally would be very happy if every u20 team provides 3 or four lads that can step up.

Plenty of our most successful ever hurlers never made an impact at u20

brookville

To be fair it was a shockingly poor performance. We looked a very poorly coached team last night. We all feared most of the backs were slow.Team selection was strange so management have to take responsibility.

I know the county board were very slow to react to the poor underage structures but look at clare now after getting embarrassed a few years ago at minor they have Donal molaney back in with the underage teams and useful competitions and are now in two munster finals.

Offally also doing very good work underage. Infairness to niall bergin he sees it first hand and summed it up a few weeks ago in that interview.

I've no doubt there'll be nothing done here or a reaction but take that all Ireland out last year it's after being dreadful underage.

Village87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581901#Comment_120581901

I highlighted that last years all Ireland was tainted as all the opposition were missing there best players. Look at Kilkenny last night, they could not win without Drennan who was injured last night, opposition has the same problem last year. I was looking forward to watching Shine last night but he went off injured again, but he again looks slow. As highlighted by an accurate post last night we were wiped from positions 5-12 last night, in every department, pace being the main problem, hurling, running off the ball, carrying the ball, winning breaks, aerial ability. Wexford left behind 1-6 in the first 15 mins after half time after cleaning us out in the first half, we were lucky not to be 10 points down. Hagan missed a one on one chance that would have made it curtains earlier. Very disappointing as we all taught this would be the foundations of a new senior team, I'm afraid not.

dzer2

In fairness Brook Niall Bergin has done nothing to rectify it in 2 yrs. If anything he has made it worse. He had lads in that just dropped out as they realised they were never getting game time. No new faces only what's being around all the time. Then says this is what he is left with.

usualstripes

The other side of this is that if Denis Walsh and Brennan were available and had Harry Shine been fit/uninjured we would probably have beaten Wexford last night. We really needed to be more clinical in taking scores.

hogans heroes

For me poor performance and management were also very poor on the line.lack of pace in the backline was a real issue and subs were better than the starters.

therealdonster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582044#Comment_120582044

To say last years AI win was tainted is a really ridiculous statement. They won it fair and square and in nearly every case the players who were missing from other teams have had almost zero impact at either senior or U20 level this year. In fact I think it was a great win and education for those young players, winning tight games like that.

For a side that "cleaned us out" Wexford were lucky enough to get the win in the end. If we had to have been more clinical we would have won last night, even without the players we were missing and bad management.

Incidentally is Wexfords win tainted because we were missing players last night, albeit through injury and not that stupid rule?

jimmythesulk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582147#Comment_120582147

Not sure which subs were better than the starters. Very little impact from the subs apart from Eoin O' Brien who got a goal. The other two subs made no difference, with Bolger looking out of his depth and Dunne missing a few easy scores. We didn't see enough of Rowe as only on for a minute.

The reality is take Billy Drennan out of this team and you are left with an average bunch.

therealdonster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582244#Comment_120582244

To be fair they were missing Drennan, Walsh and Queally from the forwards through injury.

It's nonsense to call that team an average bunch. I guess misery loves company.

conor05

That’s like saying if Oisin Pepper (Wexford Senior panellist - injured) & Darby Purcell (another of their best hurlers) were available for Wexford, Wexford were just better in most departments and that was it.

Village87

Look, well done to Wexford, they were much the better team and probably had 8-9 more scoring opportunities during the course of the match and missed a big goal chance after HT to put the 6-7 points clear. They will have there work cut out to beat Offaly

conor05

A very good Offaly under 20 team.

Wexford will have to play very well to beat them.

Will Billy Drennan get game time in this years Senior championship when he is back fit?

Could be an option for Lyng off the bench.

Mad about baa baas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582760#Comment_120582760

I don't think he contributes enough outside freetaking yet..his future is bright but this year might be too soon..hopefully he proves me wrong

Village87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582760#Comment_120582760

The lack of a panel really hurt Kilkenny last night, Offaly were missing 3/4 of there starters and good players filled the void and bet Dublin convincingly Wexford had 3 players come on yesterday and made a massive difference, No.5 was excellent when on as was the goal scorer no.18 and the 3rd was the big man who won a few balls when on. Kilkenny started Hackett with Drennan out and made little impact, Dunne came on and the full back completely dominated him, again had little impact. Bolger was not even on the panel a few weeks back and was first sub in on the backs, seems to be a lack of depth in the panel.

3 Leinster's in this age group in 10 years is a poor reflection.

Driveit

Long time reader and supporter, first time poster here.

I felt I needed to post something that has been on my mind in relation KK hurling. I do have a pub talk type theory (only a theory) on the current performances relating to KK hurling. I know its easy talk and do not question the efforts of players and managers.

For the last 120 years, Kilkenny have always been a dominant force in the hurling world with certain cycles happening of success and mini famines. This success I think is that we have a tendency to produce a certain style or type of good hurler and particularly a certain types of defender, Paddy Pender, Pat O’Neill, Pat Dwyer. Peter Barry. Noel Hickey, Huw Lawlor etc. and I see some typical examples on the current U20 team. They have served us well for sure and if managed correctly can still serve us. However, the current game of hurling does not suit this type of player that give there men a yard due to a slight lack of pace, excellent with the ball however (with the exception of delivery).

We have never managed to get to grips with the sweeper system or a zonal type defense, because of our delivery, our choices with the ball has not been good in recent years. It is too easy for a sweeper to drift across the back line and create extra number on the puckouts and delivery, we are losing more and more puck out battles all the time. For this reason, I think the first step to correcting it is that we surely need to man mark the sweeper and sacrifice a midfielder/forward and try create and dictate the type of game we are good at. Its by no means the full answer and this is just a theory. The hurler limerick, clare & somewhat wexford are producing are pacey forwards that are capable of creating space and decide to shoot or turn their defender, on two many occasions recently I have seen an opposing forward strike over the bar where our defender is 2-3 yards off with a hurl up hoping for a block, this also linked to a good delivery by opposing team. Mickey butlers success recently has been down to his pace and not giving the forward space. There isn’t anything new about placing a good ball in front of a fast forward but we seem to be allowing this time and time again. We countered this in 2006 with forwards working like dogs to prevent a good pass to their forwards. So why is it different now? The only thing I can think of is the sweeper/zonal systems. Allowing a sweeper the time to shoot for a point or give a good pass is killing us. It automatically creates an overlap to allow a progression of good quick passes.

Tipperary and to a lesser extent Cork are making a better fist of modifying their style with pacier hurlers and better management. There is a couple of questions around the theory though, the types of hurlers that clare and limerick shouldn’t have changed dramatically, but I genuinely think they have. Good hurlers have become more athletic and this is where the S&C comes into and surely part of the solution also.

Anyway this is the rantings of a lunatic, but surely with so many hurling brains in the county, we have to be able to dictate and create the game we are good at. Good management and improving pace surely is some of the answers. Anyway people with more knowledge could comment and rubbish this which would be fine with me.

Nedflanders02

I came on here today after last night's loss and to be honest expected the usual negativity and over reaction we see to a poor Kilkenny performance but in fairness I do think this time that there is an element of truth in what is being said here today and last night. I was really looking forward to last night's game and had such high hopes for this group of players, and I genuinely do think there are a lot of very talented hurlers on this team. When the team was announced and there was no Drennan or Denis Walsh it was obviously a blow but I did think there was the talent there to get through this game and have them back for a final. Watching the game however I do agree with what the majority here have said and I thought we looked like such a poorly coached team compared to Wexford who looked like they knew exactly what they were trying to do. Everything we did seemed laboured and our use of the ball was awful. I know players have to take a share of the responsibility but you really would have to wonder what the management were trying to do with them, they didn't look like they had any game plan in place. Some of the selection decisions were very strange too, Ted Dunne has been good all year but was dropped for some reason and bringing on young Bolger ahead of Niall Rowe was another strange decision. At the start of the year if I was picking an U-20 team I would have thought Bill Hughes, Cillian Corcoran and Danny Glennon would have been starters but the latter 2 weren't even on the extended panel which in fairness was very very surprising. Even the likes of young Shorthall of the Shamrocks and Glynn from Clara had performed well for their clubs last year I would have expected to see them at least on the extended panel. I genuinely don't like giving out about Kilkenny hurling but this has become a real pattern at underage level over the last 10 years where our level of coaching really is holding us back and sticks out as holding us back. In the past we've used the excuse that our S&C levels aren't as good as other counties but last night was purely down to our skill levels not being as good and sharp as they should be. I think we need to start getting experienced Kilkenny coaches who have done good things in other counties like Tom Mullaly, David Herity, Eddie Brennan, Richie Power involved in our minor/U20 and development squad set ups and have the highest quality of coaches available to bring these young lads through.

Another common theme on this thread and, from who I speak to anyway, throughout the county is criticism of the county board, again a lot of which is justified but we had a golden opportunity to make a real change last year when most of the incumbent officials were at the end of their 5 year terms to make a change at county board level and there was not one person who stood against the current board members. If people feel so strongly against the board people are going to need to put there name forward because just sitting on the outside and complaining isn't going to change a thing. Just look at the difference Michael Duignan has made at Offaly, and fair play to him for standing up and putting himself forward instead of just giving out about how things are done. I suppose the big question for us is, is there a similar type of person in Kilkenny willing to put their hand up and try and implement real change where it is needed?

jonniegoogle

A lot of comments regarding the poor coaching with the u20s.

Why in God's name would a coach with any ambition(as mentioned above, Mullally, Herity, Brennan, Power to name a few) get involved in a KK underage setup? The best coaches or should I say modern coaches are going away from a traditional game and this doen't seem to sit well with our county board. The talk last year of the U20s struggling for gym access is among a long list of basic problems to keep cropping up. I'd have huge time for Ciaran Muldowney and we all know the struggles he endured! He tried in vain to improve the coaching structure/ approach to our underage setup and probably wasted a couple of years of his own time....

Until things change from the top down, I've a feeling we're going to see more nights like last night at every age group.

Just my thoughts.

Marrooned

I firstly want to say that I agree with “Ned Flanders”.I have been at all four games at U20 a certain four players started every time who I couldn’t fathom how they managed to make the team the next day. I have to resist naming them some of them don’t even have the basics, surely the development squad’s have to be answerable for this . This year’s minor team only about 5 of them can field a high ball.

Marrooned

As regards management I have supported them all along and said on this thread they have to be supported till they do something wrong, we’ll last night they did a lot wrong. Even as a Boro man I didn’t think Harry was at the races last night then they were very slow in replacing him. I do not want to go through the whole team and blame individuals but I think both management and team must bear the responsibility. As regards management teams I never heard anyone on this tread nominating a management team who would be actually interested in the position.Niall Bergin was given the minor job this year again unopposed after being in it last year with the poorest performance ever and being involved in the Mullrooney set up the previous year or two. I didn’t here anyone on here putting anybody else forward. Go back a few pages and you will see that I recommended Mark Dowling when he became available after he finished with Thurles, did the county board twig this and offered him the job. Why aren’t these positions put forward by the county board and interview all applicants, but the county board still wants to control these managers and they are not willing to move with the times just like Ciaran Muldowney’s efforts to improve the development squads ( listen to that radio interview he had when he started. Really we on this forum should be putting forward ideas that are constructive, but the county board doesn’t want anyone having a say and would never countenance an opinion by us. Now most of the posts here make perfectly good points and some of these should be taken on board.When the people aren’t listened to we are in big trouble. It is high time the clubs start taking a bigger interest in the running of the county board and keep challenging the dictatorship.

Marrooned

As regards to the minor team and management I would be going all out to put it up to Galway, so what if we’re beaten if we brought down the losing margin to single figures I would be happy going in to the latter half of the championship with confidence and see how it pans out. It’s been done before as I mentioned previously. The very best of luck to them and shake off the shackles and have no fear of Galway.

Marrooned

No city lads on the Celtic challenge team?

greenspurs

Its gone kinda quiet about the letter....

https://scoreline.ie/caman-caint-s04e13-from-minor-all-irelands-to-provincial-senior-championships-behaviour-towards-officials-and-more/

Skip to 33mins in ...

jimmythesulk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587283#Comment_120587283

Fair play to Martin. No bullshit with him. He says it as he sees it. An excellent broadcaster.

corner back 2

Good to see some excellent discussion on here re the underage setup in Kilkenny. Anyone regularly watching underage club matches in the county can surely see that talent is not the issue. There are some exceptional good young hurlers all around the county and barring last year's U20s we can't seem to gel them into successful county teams. I don't claim to have the answers but if you listen to anecdotal evidence there definitely seems to be an issue with selection for panels first of all and then for matches. Follow that up with what seems to be tactical issues and therein lies a big problem. The main question to ask is are players developing with the county, first of all to come back to their clubs as better players and secondly to prepare them to move up levels with the county, ultimately to the senior team. This is just as important a measure as winning trophies and you would have to say the answer in the majority of instances is no.

Todd_UnctiousGael

First 20 mins, basic skills non existent, not able to deal with Galway tactics. It's a hard watch so far

Ragwort and Stones

After getting away with 2 red cards.