Kilkenny GAA Thread

citykat

Cork will win the All Ireland if they keep getting go games referees for their games

Pigeon Chaser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118841711#Comment_118841711

I think Kilkenny have the ability to be as good as any other team, if they perform to their potential on the day.

Our failing is our tendency to resort to pumping balls down to the opposition HB line if we come under pressure.

The onus is on the management/coaching team to embed a philosophy of play that allows us be competitive and reach out potential.

We have seen a lot of progress in recent games so I hope that continues.

Going back to your original question, I don't think we are as good as Limerick, Clareor Waterford. But we are good enough to beat them.

jimmythesulk

It's being a good league. We found 3 new starters in butler, blanchfield and Kenny.

I think we are in a good place and expect us to win leinster.

conor05

Michael Carey is a cert to start wing back also. Great in the air aswel.

I am still not sure Kenny is a starter come championship

brookville

Jesus Waterford walking through wexford. Couple of wexford lads very poor. I'd like to think we're not as bad as a few other teams

brookville

It's very frustrating to watch the match today and see how that was reffed and we had last night blowing for everything

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118843493#Comment_118843493

True, although both refs ignored the throw ball.

Fred Daly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118841192#Comment_118841192

Our

Corrigible

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118840918#Comment_118840918

Again we have the throwing of the ball. Cork were at it big time. He pulled one on Fitzgibbon and that was it. I think these refs think if they pull one then they won't get any heat. Funny enough when he did pull that one Melerick made a total horlicks of a three yard pass a few minutes later when he tried to execute a legal hand pass as the previous free was probably on his mind. Just shows you that it can be stamped out if the ref pulls it consistently. Anything that does not show clear seraration of the hand and sliotar must be pulled. I have to say that Kilkenny were legal nearly all of the time. Unfortunately the media will ignore it and the referees will let it go during the championship. It's killing the game IMO. Cork, Limerick, Waterford are the main culprits.

As for Kilkennys performance I was encouraged by our first half performance. No way was 20 frees to 9 an accurate reflection of the fouls committed in the game. Lots of good performances and Cody and Ryan really shone in attack when given the ball. I thought that we fought until the end in a hostile environment and if we had a fairer ref we could have won that game as it may have been too much of a mountain to climb for Cork in the second half if he had not kept them in it.

One final thing. Are we not capable of taking a decent sideline? This should be sorted out as we seem to gain no advantage from it.

Alonzo Moseley

https://www.echolive.ie/corksport/arid-40837832.html

Predictably depressing reading.

I believe people close to Cork set up now expect to beat Kilkenny down the stretch once they are close enough on scoreboard going in to last 20 mins. Better tactics, Better fitness, better speed.

It's not that Kilkenny aren’t fit, it's simply the way we hurl, the ferocity with which we play from the throw in. Rope a dope stuff, burn yourself out swinging and then you are out on your feet.

There is a now an undeniable pattern that Kilkenny fade in 2nd half (2019 AI final, 2020 matches v Dublin and Waterford) and losses to Cork in 2021 and last Sat night.

This also largely explains the puck outs. In almost all field sports, the tiring team resorts to crude tactics, kick long, kick for touch, belt the ball as far as you can and hope for best. You know it’s not smart, but your tired body is dictating

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118846999#Comment_118846999

So you think the goalie is tired so he pucks it long??

Alonzo Moseley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118847036#Comment_118847036

No, the players he might like to hit are burnt out and not mad for the short or medium length ones. It's a mindset, tired teams take the easiest available option.

In pre professional era in rugby, tiring forwards would beg an out half to belt the leather off the ball rather than go through multiple phases and or repeated tackling. But in doing so they were invariably just giving the ball back to opposition.

There is no doubt for me that Kilkenny now has a 3–4-year pattern of fading and resorting to crude long ball. Well coached teams with professional management set ups, spot this and realise we are tiring, and this of course is very energising for them. A "ok I think we have them" moment.

From about the 50th the minute on Sat night, I never seriously expected to win the match unless we worked (or fluked) another goal or two.

Must love hardship

A big issue for kilkenny is the use of subs this league and last year.

V cork Kilkenny only brought 3 subs on and 2 of them with less than 10 minutes to play.

Cody has a habit of rarely taking off his backs. Delaney and deegan were coming back from injury lays offs. However both still stayed on for 70 minutes when fresh legs were needed. The hard working style kilkenny play with is tiring we needed bring in 1 or 2 more especially in the backs.

The week before v waterford it was a similar story 3 subs, no backs taken off .

V Dublin despite winning by 12 our 13 Points they only made 2 subs and 1 was an injury.

Despite finding 3 new players in Butler, blanchfield and kenny( taken off on last 3 games) maybe kilkenny could have found 1 or 2 more if they were given the opportunity...

We are in to the championship now So experimentation will be limited you'd imagine. I think it was a big opportunity missed and hopefully we don't get to the situation where we are backs to bringing back on a player we took off earlier like mossy last year.

usualstripes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118847161#Comment_118847161

If you watch the 2nd half of our semi final last year on many occasions both our corner backs pulled out to take the short puck out but they weren't used for this.

Unfortunately for Conor Delaney as good a hurler as he is he is not adept at carrying the ball 20-30 yards from a short puckout and delivering a sweet pass to one of our more outfield players.

Aside from all this as many have explained above there are many positives to take from Saturday evening. It is just out of hope now that we are smarter in the 2nd half, even if we are tiring but for gods sake if lads are tiring put in some fresh legs. We have some serious hurlers on the panel that we can utilise.

Village87

Hard to see how Kilkenny can beat this Cork team over next 4/5 years, Horgan had a poor game, Harnedy and Tim O'Mahoney will start on there Championship team. All there best players are very young and only getting better and there underage teams are well on top on Kilkenny last 4/5 years. Cork gave Kilkenny a 4/5 point head start and still won by 3/4 points. Not many positives to take from the match Saturday regarding the panel. Subs made little impact. Alan Murphy and Cillian Buckley are very slow around the middle third. Kilkenny are probably 5/6th ranking team in Ireland now and that is our level.

jonniegoogle

I don't think you can use tiredness as an excuse for long(as far as you can) puckouts. It's way too easy for the opposition to defend. At this stage I'd like to see if our back up keeper is a better option going forward. No doubting Murphy's ability but at this stage, I feel his inability to pick players out is def holding us back. The Limericks, Waterford's etc will comfortably deal with this if we persist with it. Personally I think it's Murphy's call where the ball goes.

All things considered we had a better league than I predicted. Showing signs of modernising our game but when the pressure comes on...........

Grats

A manager has the final call, and Cody certainly does by all accounts. If Eoin Murphy isn't playing to Cody's instructions do you think he'd get away with it? Well, he shouldn't. The problem as I see it is that Cody still prefers the long ball but allows Murphy to use the short puckout if it's on. But how much practice goes into the short ones, very little from what we see.

Eoin needs to hang in there until Cody retires, this year, and then we'll see his true worth.

therealdonster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118847569#Comment_118847569

There is definitely not 5 or 6 teams better than Kilkenny. Maybe two or 3 but not 5 or 6.

Mad about baa baas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848169#Comment_118848169

Do you know something we don't? I don't see what will have changed in the Cody household by December to make him retire..I think he is going to stay until he is physically unable to continue

Alonzo Moseley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118847569#Comment_118847569

I feel that is too gloomy.

Look how we are now told that Waterford have the deepest pool of senior players in Ireland. Yet a few years ago 5-6 of those players wouldn’t have got near a Kilkenny squad. You would never have picked out likes of Montgomery or Fagan or Prendergast or Mc Nulty as top-class players a few years ago. Furthermore, Waterford save for one fine Minor/U21 team mid-decade, have done little or nothing at underage since then. .

So how have they now got a glut of supposedly top-class senior players? I’m not sure they have.

What they have is a core of good players but with a good set up, good management, good coaching and good game plans.

My core point is that what is separating the best teams from the pack is the setup, not a deep pool of yearly talent. essentially what traditionally divided players was levels of good technique but because the game has become so easy (how much easier is it to hit a 40 yard stick pass accurately with a featherlite 30 inch hurl and a big bas than a heavy 36 inch one with small bas?), everyone has good technique, so the difference between the average and the really good teams is being forged elsewhere.

The evolution of hurling into a hard driving running and fast passing game suits the best set ups with innovative coaching. But while some of this innovative coaching is admirable some is cynical and parts of it is undoubtedly taking the piss out of the rule book, which they know how to exploit.

Relatively average hurlers with super levels of fitness can now become very effective senior hurlers because the game as they are being coached is made easy due to above factors.

People having orgasms over lads arrowing a pass 30 meters straight to the hand of a teammate. So what?Anyone close to a county senior panel should be able to do that blindfolded with modern sliotar and hurl.

Waterford or even Limerick haven’t suddenly started producing players that are technically far more gifted than us, what they have done is refined and enhanced modern techniques to be more effective in matches.

Perhaps the saddest aspect of recent years is that we have over hurling history being far and away the most innovative hurling county in responding to changes in the game, but at present we seem to be the Luddites of hurling.

However, to finish where I started, I don’t think we haven’t the raw material. We are still producing seriously good natural hurlers.

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848461#Comment_118848461

Wishful thinking perhaps!

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848996#Comment_118848996

Excellent post. The poster you were responding to mentioned Horgan playing poorly without giving any credit to his marker. He never acknowledged that Delaney was playing his first match in weeks, Deegan was just back from injury, we had 6 or 7 newish lads and let down by slow reaction on the sideline with subs etc. Plus the ref and throwing of the ball.

And we ran this athletic wonderful Cork team very close in their home ground.

Marrooned

Spot on Grats.

jimmythesulk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848996#Comment_118848996

We are not producing seriously good hurlers, as you say. Tj, eoin Cody, lawlor and padraig Walsh when playing wing back, Murphy for shot stopping. The rest are just average. Blanchfield and butler might join that list in the next year or two but we will also lose tj. we don't have the players. Does not matter a jot who the manager is. The players are just not of a high enough standard.

Alonzo Moseley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118849382#Comment_118849382

I said we are still producing seriously good natural hurlers, if they aren't in turn becoming seriously good inter county hurlers, I think it's wrong to give management a pass on that.

DerekMc Grath and Liam Cahill would have been delighted to have likes of James Maher, Donnelly, Darren Mullen, Evan Shefflin, Conor Delaney. All of them would in my opinion be better natural hurlers than at least 5 or 6 of Waterford's starting 15 yesterday.

My point (again) is that Waterford cannot claim to have had a better pool of underage talent the past 5-6 years. yet here they now are with supposedly the best panel of good inter county players in Ireland.

4 years ago I would have taken Adrian Mullen or John Donnelly or James Maher as natural hurling talent ahead of Hegarty, Flanagan or even Casey, but look at the respective developments since. How can respective senior mangement set ups not be a contributing issue here?

Of the 18-19 year olds, Billy Drennan, Joe Fitzpatrick, Harry Shine, Timmy Clifford, Killian Doyle, Ian Byrne and a few more are all very good hurlers.

It might not be a golden age for Kilkenny by any means, but we have had far worse supposed ""well run dry” periods, most notably the 6-7 years before Cody took over.

briancoolcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848996#Comment_118848996

Great post I think you have it spot on. I said in an earlier post that we have the hurlers and reading some of the more knowledgeable posters on here I believe they see where the problems lie. We have been way too slow to adapt to the modern game which really took off with Eamonn o Shea and Tipperary in 2016. Paul kinnerk has been working his magic with Limerick and the Waterford and cork teams are right up there with the modern game. We are still piecemeal at it and resorting to dinosaur tactics as soon as we start to tire and the game tightes up. Why is this happening? Management lads management. We need a new man at the helm with top class coaching and strength and conditioning men onboard. We have the hurlers and will continue to produce fine hurlers but until the penny drops with the people in charge we will not win another all Ireland. We could have 15 Henry shefflins lining out for Kilkenny but compared to where the well coached teams are at currently as compared to us we still wouldn't win. The game tactics and strategies have moved on some of it not to my liking but it has and we will need a new progressive management team at the helm to get us back to winning all Ireland's.

Grats

Two excellent posts.

The_Tank

I rewatched the 12 minutes after half time and I believe they underlined Kilkenny's problems of the last few years. While Cork upped the pressing and intensity Kilkenny made a number of errors on the ball - mostly poor touch, poor shooting and poor decision making/concentration in a highly partisan and pressured environment. That is what the squad need to reflect on. The lack of hard intelligent running and proper support options to counter Corks intensity, individual errors and it has to be admitted some random ball hops (you make your own luck?) lost Kilkenny the game in that period. The one long puck out actually worked with Buckley breaking through for a half goal chance.

Kilkenny needed a couple of points to stop the rot but couldn't work them. They need to think why. Illustration - Deegans brilliant interception followed by a long range wide when Padriag Walsh was standing on his own inside. Illustration - Cork caught our left wing out with a simple switch from their own puck out (it appeared Cody wasn't switched on to tracking O'Mahoney when he overlapped). Each mistake sapped confidence. Each bad option underlined it. Cork pushed on harder as Kilkenny encouraged them. That to me is what they players need to reflect on. Can they make good decisions in the white hot heat? Easy for a keyboard warrior to point out but that is the difference between a semi final team and a viable winner. That to me is up to the management to point out but primarily the players to resolve. For years we relied on individual brilliance to bail us out of such situations, now we don't have that to the same level but systematic brilliance has propelled teams like Limerick to dominance. Yes the environment has to be there, and yes management need to push this hard - but if a lad can't hit the posts, can't pass a ball, can't control a ball, can't track a run, can't make a support run or decides to sky a ball wide from 80 yards when the game is in the clutch then what really can management do? The game is chaotic, that game was high intensity, the only way out of there with a win was to ride out the inevitable onslaught with intelligent application.

Ultimately this game was a 'free hit' at Cork and there were many positives when you get over the emotion of losing but if the players don't use it to learn then we're just going to see the same maybe in early July if we don't get caught before that.

Village87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118848996#Comment_118848996

Waterford have 5/6 outstanding hurlers that Kilkenny do not have. Austin Gleeson, Dessie Hutchinson, Jamie Barron, Callum Lyons, Stephen Bennett. Tadhg De Burca. Kilkenny have maybe 2 players up these players standards. Kilkenny beat a Waterford team already qualified last week missing 3 of these players. No matter how much the commentators talk about Waterford strength and depth they will win nothing if missing 2/3 from that list. Kilkenny have TJ, 35 this year and Padraig Walsh 30 and possibly Huw Lawlor that could potentially make any team in the country, Eoin Cody if he can keep improving. Kilkenny will be in decline for the next few years unfortunately, to many lads in there 30s playing. Murphy, Wally, Buckley, TJ, P Walsh.

tbiggertycome

Unfortunately the earlier optimism of the league was misplaced. The fear of what exactly we had beaten and would we stick to the game plan when pressure was applied proved true.

Some here have had a go at the players and Murphy in particular for the puckouts. Now the players are not free from fault but when your being sent out with mixed messages I can see how we end up with the performances we have had. If anyone has seen Eoin Murphy play out field you will know he is an excellent stick man and very accurate at all distances. Long medium and short puck outs only work and can be retained if their practiced and you have a clear plan to get players open. There is no sense in Murphy hitting a ball to midfield or the half back line if their not open or making an attempt to get open that is worse than a long puckout to no-one as the ball is another 20 or 30 yards closer to your own goal if the opposition get it. If there was a clear strategy there that was practiced Murphy is more than capable of hitting the ball to the lads that are open.

From the outside it looks like we haven't changed much from last year in our approach to practicing the finer points of the modern game. We might be practicing them but there is a problem translating it to match day. That comes from two things in my opinion. 1 not all the management have fully bought into and support/believe the game plan will/can work. 2 we just might not have had enough time to practice and implement it. However we have been trying this in part since last year for me issue 1 is the main reason we're failing and my suspicion is Cody is the one not buying in