Kilkenny GAA Thread

Alonzo Moseley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118850494#Comment_118850494

All the Waterford players you name are top class IC players but most developed into top class IC players. Gleeson was a marquee name even as a teenager, but the rest were mostly in the good category and seriously kicked on in their early 20s.

By contrast, the Mullens, Donnelly, Maher, Conor Delaney and Evan Shefflin are all in limbo, on and off the team and two not even in panel.

Look at the most obvious one of all, the respective 2014 AI minor teams. Not one of that Kilkenny team is currently a guaranteed starter on the senior team while six of the Limerick team are nailed on fixtures in Limerick starting line up and among the best inter county hurlers in Ireland.

I feel the difference is in Waterford (and Limerick and Cork) you immediately feel "wanted”; I'd say the training is 90% positive. You go home tired but happy and mad to kick on. You have bought in to it all.

By contrast if one believes much of what you hear, Kilkenny training is still a survival of the fittest. I heard a story some months ago about a young lad called in and spent the night sitting on the bench freezing. Cody is old school and seems to operate largely on instilling resepct and even fear.

I read years ago how even Roy Keane was petrified of Brian Clough, how after surprisingly handing him his debut at Anfield, Clough initially praised him afterwards in dressing room but then flung his boots at him and told Keane to clean them. It worked but wouldn’t work today.

I'm not suggesting Cody would do something as disrespectful as that, but it's the same ethos. I have heard stories how good young players after being on fire all week in training and expecting to get picked, instead find themselves off the squad come Fri night. That is old school mindfucking bordering on bullying.

Cody seems to reserve his toughest treatment for young players who are highly rated. Constantly subbing them on and off and dropping them at will. (I have always felt this is Cody reprising his playing career where he as a very highly rated young player got messed around for years before he came back with a bang). People say it worked, but did it?

I don’t feel we ever got the max out of Richie Power, Cha and Hogan, and TJ nearly quit in his mid 20s.

Anyway, back on point, Waterford 5 years ago didn’t have a significantly better pool of 17-21 year olds than us (and they definitely don’t have one right now). But they did do a much better job of developing what they had.

Cody by contrast appears still stuck in the old Kilkenny mindset. Essentially “this is Kilkenny, you are honoured to be called in to training and maybe get a jersey. My job isn’t to develop you as players and whatever **** I throw at you take it and keep going”

And of course when you are winning no one questions this sort of gladiatorial methodology but when you fall back, it starts to look what it is, tired and crude.

Village87

I cannot argue with above post. I agree with a lot you are saying. Most hurling folk in Kilkenny fully agree Cody is a pure ignorant pig and is putting off many young lads progressing and actually wanting to be a part of the panel.

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118850958#Comment_118850958

I absolutely agree that number 1 is the issue. And your comments about Eoin Murphy are spot on.

I wouldn't necessarily think that we should go the whole way with the "modern" game, a mix of the old and new will eventually be the way. But for God sake, Cody needs to embrace change, believe in it and practice it. Token stuff ain't good enough and that's where we're at right now. The players deserve better and they're well capable of more.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118850958#Comment_118850958

I think its obvious that they have changed the game plan from last year.

Plenty of puckouts went short to the full back line. The problem some times looked to be the defenders Pass out of defense, On 2 or 3 occasions passes were hit directly into the ground in front of the player.

These need to be struck hard at chest height to give the catcher that extra split second to catch and deliver on again.

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851969#Comment_118851969

Isn't it obvious from what you say that we aren't practicing it enough in training - which is what we're saying for the last 5 years?

brookville

To be honest I think there's a slight over reaction from the loss. Don't get me wrong that was a game we were in pole position to win and I'm as disappointed as the next lad that we didn't win but there's definitely alot of positives to be taken. Mickey butler has being absolutely excellent and done a great job on Kingston.Lawlor again was excellent and Is one of the best full backs in the country now. Blanchfield was a bit jittery on Robbie o flying but that was a great learning curve for him. Kenny done some nice things again and is improving we need to gibe him time. Billy and cody were both excellent in the first half especially. We probably should of had a few more goals wally and Billy Ryan and wally had a half chance at the end he didn't control.The ref definitely rode us in the 1st half and kept cork in the game.Cody and gortha were going biserk in front of me when the ball wasn't going to hand so I'd be hopeful the next few weeks things will be looked at and worked on. The killer for me is why didn't we make a few changes when things were going bad I think cork got about 6 or 7 points in a row. Deegan and blanchfield drove 2 stinkers instead of doing what worked so well in the 1st half.we all knew delaney isn't a corner back and his man got 4 points without a change. Surely the obvious thing to do was put deegan at 4 and Richie Reid at 6 but he let delaney get a scutching at 4. When we started to get over run at midfield and the half forward line he leaves padraig in at 14 for most of the half. This was absolutely baffling. If leahy and browne are fit enough for the bench couldn't the two of them be brought in for the last 10 mins I'm sure browne could of done a tracking job on someone's.

I know Darren mullen was a few weeks behind browne and leahy but I hope by the time the galway match comes around he will be fit he would be a huge help. Browne,leahy and fogarty would all be a help to come on. Cody always talks about a panel he needs to use it more in games.

me89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118850979#Comment_118850979

You don't feel we got the most out of Power, Cha, Hogan is a really strange comment to make.

Power and Hogan's bodies let them down and we got nearly every minute we could out of them and cha preferred the social life.

Can we stop with the none of the players are happy talk, we spend all winter hearing players are leaving the panel but that never seems to happen

Lowball

Lowball

I think that’s an outrageous claim to make and certainly sounds like a grudge

Alonzo Moseley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118853292#Comment_118853292

All three (especially Hogan) were often treated like shite even when in their prime, and if it wasn't for Shefflin's intervention in 2012 we'd now be saying "that TJ Reid lad was handy but never made it as an inter county hurler”.

I didn’t say “none” of the players are happy, I’d imagine some are. It’s just my observation is that Cody's style of management (particularly his man management) looks outdated and crude.

And for what it’s worth I don’t want to see Kilkenny ape everything Limerick and Waterford and Cork do (most especially the cheating via steps and throwing and too such simulation).

TBH it's not just Kilkenny's old style tactics that depress me, I dont see the same joy in playing senior hurling these days, like rugby, so much of it is scripted and analysed and practised and controlled. It might look good and instinctive but very little of it is. I think any game where almost every move is mapped out and controlled lacks passion and joy at the playing level. While you still see some magic touches, players are largely performing pre ordained tasks instead of being truly creative and expressing their respective abilities.

I hope the next big innovation in hurling is a move to counter the way the above three play (including all the good stuff they do) but I’m not remotely optimistic Cody will be in the vanguard of any such move.

Even if there isn’t a counter revolution to beat the ultra-fast through the lines hurling, I think the rule book will eventually break it down anyway. I think people will bore of the cricket score matches.

I remember being in a small minority not gushing over the 2018 semi final Limerick v Cork, it left me cold, there was something fake about it, it was all too easy. Points flying over from 100 yards etc

kksaints

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118853650#Comment_118853650

Lot of nostalgia thinking in this post. Hurling has developed so much in the last 10 years tactically that when you watch old matches now you realise how simplistic and tactically naive the game was.

Alonzo Moseley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118853701#Comment_118853701

Maybe a bit of misty eyed nostalgia involved alright but I’d love to see next big move in hurling being one where instinctive and individual brilliance in stick work and shooting in particular is rewarded.

For all the gushing praise for the quality of points, wides totals are higher than ever showing that shooting accuracy is still not great.

In fact, I believe a lot of teams who analyse everything fail to analyse actual shooting accuracy of players. I would love to see a team win an AI on 35% possession shooting 95% beating a team that shoots 50% and believe we may see just that in next year or two as Limerick in particualr probably cannot continue to get away with their profligacy.

Limerick shoot from anywhere safe in the knowledge their possession dominance will get 45-55 shots at the posts in 70 mins, so wides generally don’t doom them. But reduce them to even 45 shots (still a serious number) and they have one of their regular bad days at below 50% and they will probably lose.

Btw

Cork too are nowhere near as accurate as people seem to think and I could be wrong but I think we shot as many points from play off less chances on Sat night.

Grats

Cork aren't playing too differently to the way they played in 2004 to 2006 when they were expected to dominate for many years. And look what happened to them in 2006 - massive workrate beat them and they haven't managed to win a title since.

Kilkenny brought a similar workrate for a lot of the match last Saturday. It was only when we ran out of steam, yet again, that Cork got on top. They won't always have home venue advantage and a ref who likes their style!

brookville

As others have pointed out here is it fitness or decision making in big matches that let kk down? Someone gave examples of big matches we imploded in amd there has being a good few since 2018 and this was obviously the tail end of that great team but also the end of mick dempsey who we know was very good to lads like Adrian mullen before he came onto the panel.

From the outside it seems we're behind other teams fitness and tactically. It was noticeable cork guys going down the other night and they were able to get their message into the players when things weren't going right. We're suppose to have guys on stats etc you didn't need to be a genius to see cork were taking over midway through the 2nd half and we needed a few changes or that a corner back was after getting clipped for 4 points.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118854210#Comment_118854210

Was any back subed off in the entire league? Evan cody was injured in a game but apart from that I can't remember anyone..

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118854210#Comment_118854210

Your post covers much of what the problem is with the team. And everything is fixable, which must be very frustrating for the players.

I might add - when we beat Dublin and Waterford it was said that both those teams had done heavy training during the week!!! Kilkenny mustn't have done any such training!

brookville

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118854611#Comment_118854611

Not too many to be fair I think James maher against antrim and brassil against laois but he has a habit of leaving the selected team on for moat of the match. I hope these things are rectified before the championship but it's unlikely.

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118853549#Comment_118853549

Thats common.....

me89

Delaney and Maher v Antrim, Brassil v Laois and Evan Cody v Tipp. Cody and Delaney were injuries.

JJs Left Hand

Regardless of anything else, Waterford are an incredibly well coached team. Every player knows exactly what to do. The running off the shoulder off every puck out to the half back line, closing off the middle of the goal any time the other team has the ball inside their 45 and the goal hunting. Cahill and Bevans are serious.

conor05

Cahill and Bevan know the modern game inside out.

No wasted 50/50 percentage balls.

Look at all the goals they got tonight, running at pace at defences and then pop pass to the finisher (albeit the cork defending was septic) but Waterford still done it.

They done the exact same to Wexford last week.

They are going in the right direction for Liam McCarthy that’s for sure!

davidx40

Waterford will take some stopping .....they have athletism ....size ....brilliant hurlers .... superbly coached .....they will give a out few hidings before year is over .....there relentless

Grats

Delighted for Waterford. Cork wouldn't have been in the Final but for the ref in our match and poor action from our sideline. We need to have a serious look at our fitness levels. We've collapsed far too often in the last few years. Waterford have no such issue.

PeggyShippen

Congratulations to Waterford. They are a serious side. They got the goals at exactly the right times. I wouldnt write Cork off. They scored a fair bit. Structurally they are poor at the back but they won't be as bad again this year. Limerick will offer a very stern test obviously but Cork should still come out of Munster. They were opened up way too easily for Bennetts second goal.

davidx40

I can't see anything but a Waterford All Ireland win .....think they have by far the best panel in country .....pace they have is unplayable .....

brookville

We'd all probably like to see Waterford win the all Ireland once it wasn't at our expense. They've a great balance to their team. Everyone knows what to do.Lads can slot in and do a job with no big fuss but it was noticeable lyons amd prunty were rusty last night but that should bring them on. Munster will be absolutely serious but I was dissapointed with cork the same old frailties are still there.Waterford got be few handy frees I thought,daly played for a few but cork weren't happy.i thought Collins was poor for one or two of the goals but the way they got opened up through the middle would be very worrying. They drove alot of wides and I'm suprised they didn't use their pace and run at them. Cahill is a serious operator and we can only be envious of his tactical awareness. That tipp u20 and u21 team he had were goal hungry and he's stamp is all over this Waterford team. I'd expect them to back up their league performances in munster and they seem to be on a journey. Cahill will have them grounded and focused. I do agree we need to have a look at our fitness it seems to be a huge problem the last few years.

JJs Left Hand

The fitness thing is linked to the style of play. Waterford and Cork play a strong running game and have done for years. So outside their fitness work every game they play in training or as a team is conditioning them for that hard running game. We don't play like that, we try to let the ball do the work so without those training games, without those practice matches, without those competitive games playing a hard running game the teams "fitness" is never going to match Cork or Waterford. The same type of mileage is just not getting into the legs and lungs.

Look at Waterfords warm up in Nowlan Park two weeks ago. Unbelievable mileage racked up before the ball was even thrown in all geared around getting them ready for their way of playing.

If anyone in here or within the squad or the county board thinks we can ever match Cork or Waterfords fitness just through "fitness work" alone it's a fundamental misunderstanding of why we're not matching them. If we're not going to match their play and as such accumulate the same mileage then the team need to play smarter to conserve energy for the last 20 minutes.

kilkennyboy

Waterford looked very impressive last night took goals really well.But my god cork defending is non existent. Waterford have huge momentum now and could coast to a munster final.

But they may have to beat limerick 3 times to win a all Ireland.

I could see us winning leinster despite all the doom and gloom around here.Think league worked out well enough for us .Heard tj and a few more are back doing a nice block of fitness work that should have everyone available for galway game.

All Ireland simi

Kilkenny v limerick

Waterford v Galway

conor05

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876569#Comment_118876569

I am still not convinced about Galway. Great hurlers but there is a serious lack of pace in the team this last 2 years.

I am not saying they won’t be in the mix because Henry will have play to their strengths but their first game V Wexford down in Wexford park is a big big game for both teams.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118876569#Comment_118876569

Waterford may have to play Limerick three times but only have to beat them once.