I'm bi and I dont support the LGBTQ movement because I dont like the Q word

VENEATS

eviltwin wrote: »

Why don’t you describe yourself as Bi then using the B ?

I dont. Stonewall and LGBT UK both do? That's my point???

Annasopra

VENEATS wrote: »

I dont. Stonewall and LGBT UK both do? That's my point???

I dont even know what "LGBT UK" is

ztoical

Look OP labels can be difficult for lots of people. I know plenty of lesbians who hate the word dyke and others who only use dyke and hate lesbian. I know lesbians who are happy to be called gay and others who think that word should only be used for men. They prefer queer as they feel it lacks gender and is therefore more inclusive. There is literally no word we could use that everyone will be happy with.

VENEATS

ztoical wrote: »

Look OP labels can be difficult for lots of people. I know plenty of lesbians who hate the word dyke and others who only use dyke and hate lesbian. I know lesbians who are happy to be called gay and others who think that word should only be used for men. They prefer queer as they feel it lacks gender and is therefore more inclusive. There is literally no word we could use that everyone will be happy with.

That's fair enough but when organisations use a word to describe me, that I deem a slur, how would I support them, when they dont me.

And theres a huge difference between lesbian and Q.

ztoical

VENEATS wrote: »

That's fair enough but when organisations use a word to describe me, that I deem a slur, how would I support them, when they dont me.

And theres a huge difference between lesbian and Q.

In your opinion. Its not viewed as a slur by others. If you want to not support organisations for using a word that is your choice. Language around LGBTQ+ can be minefield and no one will get it right, someone will always feel left out, discriminated or insulted by word choices but I'm not sure what out come you want from this OP. As several people have stated they are ok with using queer, myself included. I don't like bisexual and don't want that word used to describe me but I'm not going to take offensive if others like yourself do.

VENEATS

ztoical wrote: »

In your opinion. Its not viewed as a slur by others. If you want to not support organisations for using a word that is your choice. Language around LGBTQ+ can be minefield and no one will get it right, someone will always feel left out, discriminated or insulted by word choices but I'm not sure what out come you want from this OP. As several people have stated they are ok with using queer, myself included. I don't like bisexual and don't want that word used to describe me but I'm not going to take offensive if others like yourself do.

So do you mind if I call you bisexual even though you dont like being called it?

People call my relationship the Q word even though I dont like it.

The thing is I wouldnt disrespect who you say you are and call you bi if that's not what you want to be called. In the same way I dont think bi people should be called the q word. Bi people should be called bi. We have bi relationships not queer ones. We have bi stories not queer ones.

ztoical

VENEATS wrote: »

The thing is I wouldnt disrespect who you say you are and call you bi if that's not what you want to be called. In the same way I dont think bi people should be called the q word. Bi people should be called bi. We have bi relationships not queer ones. We have bi stories not queer ones.

If you specifically were the topic of a conversation and you'd asked people not to use certain words or pronouns etc and people still did I could understand the personal affront but as mentioned several times in this thread it is a word that doesn't hold the same insult for others as it does for you specifically.

If you want to have a bigger discussion about Bi erasure and that you felt using words other then Bi was adding to that I could understand but I don't see the word as a slur and quite a few others don't either hence why its being used a lot more particularly with younger people. I've worked with youth groups and listened to so many young folk who have come out and prefer we used queer youth to gay youth as they felt it was more inclusive for them and allowed them more room to explore and find out where they fit rather then having to put more specific labels on themselves too early. A good friend of mine who now uses non-binary struggled for a long time trying to figure out where they fit in and has said several times that using the word queer helped them so much in being able to be in the community and accepted as part of it without having to attach more specific labels. A word you see as a slur others have seen as a lifeline.

VENEATS

ztoical wrote: »

If you specifically were the topic of a conversation and you'd asked people not to use certain words or pronouns etc and people still did I could understand the personal affront but as mentioned several times in this thread it is a word that doesn't hold the same insult for others as it does for you specifically.

If you want to have a bigger discussion about Bi erasure and that you felt using words other then Bi was adding to that I could understand but I don't see the word as a slur and quite a few others don't either hence why its being used a lot more particularly with younger people. I've worked with youth groups and listened to so many young folk who have come out and prefer we used queer youth to gay youth as they felt it was more inclusive for them and allowed them more room to explore and find out where they fit rather then having to put more specific labels on themselves too early. A good friend of mine who now uses non-binary struggled for a long time trying to figure out where they fit in and has said several times that using the word queer helped them so much in being able to be in the community and accepted as part of it without having to attach more specific labels. A word you see as a slur others have seen as a lifeline.

Fair enough. But again others seeing it as a lifeline, let them use it to describe THEM. If they struggle to know what they are, then I've no issue with THEM using the word for THEM.

I'm not the only one that doesnt like it. It's just a little bit of respect. And it's nothing to do with bi erasure.

If I believe the most inclusive umbrella term is bisexual f***ots, you ok with that? Are you ok with being called that in the future? I certainly wouldnt?

At the end of the day, the word shares a lot of meaning, still to many, it's just about respect. And people/orgs dont have that respect, then how do they expect that respect that.

L1011

VENEATS wrote: »

So do you mind if I call you bisexual even though you dont like being called it?

People call my relationship the Q word even though I dont like it.

The thing is I wouldnt disrespect who you say you are and call you bi if that's not what you want to be called. In the same way I dont think bi people should be called the q word. Bi people should be called bi. We have bi relationships not queer ones. We have bi stories not queer ones.

How does this relate to objecting to your initial issue with the Q being in the initialism though? The L, G and T don't apply to you either.

VENEATS

L1011 wrote: »

How does this relate to objecting to your initial issue with the Q being in the initialism though? The L, G and T don't apply to you either.

So I dont like the Q word. It is not something that I'm never going to use. To me it will, always, be a slur. If people want to define themselves as that, fair enough, I cant change that. And whilst I dont like it i wouldnt lose support for Stonewall etc....

If I wrote it misleading, I apologise.

My issue (with regards to support) is not so much the Q being in the acronym. If I was using the acronym they would be part of the plus (probably LGBTI+). Why I cant support the movements and pride etc is because of the way the Q is being used in the acronym.

For me, I see very little difference between my dad using it at me when I didnt want it used to now when these LGBT movements are using to me when I dont want it used to describe ME. I'm a bi man. I'm not part of the q word group. I'm not in a q relationship. I'm just not.

Bannasidhe

...Ghost... wrote: »

It was done with such finesse. Bravo to you. What a warm, welcoming individual you have been to so kindly correct a simple misunderstanding of a word heard by a straight male in recent times who didn't gender/gay/pride check it thoroughly before using it. I had incorrectly believed there was a sexuality element attached to the word due to a personal observation seeing the word being used in public.

As I said already, the first line of your response was plenty, but you went on a bit of a flexathon and then declared that you didn't care what a "straight man thinks". You seem to have expanded on that to declare you don't care what straight people think. So, is it just straight peoples thoughts you take issue with, or does it extend to people of faith, or who lean right in politics? Do you regularly dismiss people because of their sexual orientation, or is it just in this thread?

Mate.

You came in here and went on a great big How dare they say I am cis...yada yada yada - and it turned out you didn't even know what the word means. Didn't even bother to find out.
Just had a go.

And why should I be welcoming to someone who thinks they have the right to comment on how I identify?
Nope. I don't care what you think.
If your ego has an issue with that - that's your issue not mine.

As for you being straight - how on Earth did I know that?
Of yes - you told us.
Came into the LGBT forum telling us all how you are straight and then lecturing us on how we should identify on the grounds of what you, personally, like and dislike.

Again. No. Not happening.

ztoical

OP I can respect that you don't feel comfortable using the word queer but I'm confused as you keep saying they are using it to describe you. Like its a direct personal reference to you. Maybe you can expand on that and explain clearer exactly what the offence is.

Do you mean when say an organisation releases a press release and uses the LGBTQ+? I could understand if they were using queer on its own someone taking offence but when its part of the entire group why do you think the Q is directed at you? I understand its a slur to you but do you not look to the B and see that as you? What if you and I were attending an event that was being covered by LGBTQ+ I don't use bisexual, it doesn't represent me, I am queer and thats the word I want used so why do you get to decided that Q is removed and replaced with + ? I would be offended to have it replaced as I would feel I was being removed and unwelcome

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Mate.

You came in here and went on a great big How dare they say I am cis...yada yada yada - and it turned out you didn't even know what the word means. Didn't even bother to find out.
Just had a go.

And why should I be welcoming to someone who thinks they have the right to comment on how I identify?
Nope. I don't care what you think.
If your ego has an issue with that - that's your issue not mine.

As for you being straight - how on Earth did I know that?
Of yes - you told us.
Came into the LGBT forum telling us all how you are straight and then lecturing us on how we should identify on the grounds of what you, personally, like and dislike.

Again. No. Not happening.

So respect only goes one way?

If you told me you didn't like being called Queer, but I insisted on calling you that anyway, would you not describe that as being deliberately disrespectful?

I'm straight and I don't like the 'cis' term, either.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

So respect only goes one way?

If you told me you didn't like being called Queer, but I insisted on calling you that anyway, would you not describe that as being deliberately disrespectful?

I'm straight and I don't like the 'cis' term, either.

Why should I respect your opinion about how I identify?
Do I go around telling you how, imo, you should identify?

And straight people have been calling me Queer for over 40 years.

And yes, I am.
That is exactly what I am. And proud of it.

I have been called a hell of a lot more by bigoted straight people - haters gonna hate.

And the current respect shown to LGBTQ+ was fought for and hard won - when did straight people have to fight for respect?

And go into the thread in CA [*edit to add - the thread in this forum has a few LGBT 'gone too far' b.s. posts too] about the laws in Hungary and you will see how much of a veneer that 'respect' often is as people seek to justify homophobic laws.

It's not my fault if you are hurt that your opinion as a straight person (which again - you felt the need to tell us you are) telling Queer people all about the words we use to describe ourselves isn't respected. Neither am I going to take any responsibility for your hurt feelings.

Bottom line - your don't get to decide how I, or any other Queer, defines ourselves. We do not need or require your input. And while no-one is stopping you having any opinion - or expressing that opinion. None of us have to respect that opinion.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why should I respect your opinion about how I identify?
Do I go around telling you how, imo, you should identify?

And straight people have been calling me Queer for over 40 years.

And yes, I am.
That is exactly what I am. And proud of it.

I have been called a hell of a lot more by bigoted straight people - haters gonna hate.

And the current respect shown to LGBTQ+ was fought for and hard won - when did straight people have to fight for respect?

And go into the thread in CA about the laws in Hungary and you will see how much of a veneer that 'respect' often is as people seek to justify homophobic laws.

It's not my fault if you are hurt that your opinion as a straight person (which again - you felt the need to tell us you are) telling Queer people all about the words we use to describe ourselves isn't respected. Neither am I going to take any responsibility for your hurt feelings.

Bottom line - your don't get to decide how I, or any other Queer, defines ourselves. We do not need or require your input. And while no-one is stopping you having any opinion - or expressing that opinion. None of us have to respect that opinion.

whatabout whatabout whatabout...




I'll try again:


If you told me you didn't like being called Queer, but I insisted on calling you that anyway, would you not describe that as being deliberately disrespectful?

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

whatabout whatabout whatabout...




I'll try again:


If you told me you didn't like being called Queer, but I insisted on calling you that anyway, would you not describe that as being deliberately disrespectful?

That bit in bold - is that your version of showing an LGBTQ+ person respect in the LGBT Forum?

And you have missed my point that I have been called Queer and worse as a slur, and I have taken that term as my own. As have hundreds of thousands of others going back decades.

I AM Queer. Calling me it - regardless of how it is meant - is simply stating something I have never denied.
I will not let the haters define me. I define me.

What is disrespectful is a person with no skin the the game, who will never be subjected to slurs based on their sexuality, a member of the always respected majority, believing they have the right to question me, and others who identify as Queer, and call into question our right to use the terms we wish to use.

It is, quite literally, imo none of your business as it does not affect you in any way, shape, or form.

Again, avoiding the question.

...Ghost...

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Mate.

You came in here and went on a great big How dare they say I am cis...yada yada yada - and it turned out you didn't even know what the word means. Didn't even bother to find out.
Just had a go.

And why should I be welcoming to someone who thinks they have the right to comment on how I identify?
Nope. I don't care what you think.
If your ego has an issue with that - that's your issue not mine.

As for you being straight - how on Earth did I know that?
Of yes - you told us.
Came into the LGBT forum telling us all how you are straight and then lecturing us on how we should identify on the grounds of what you, personally, like and dislike.

Again. No. Not happening.

I'm not the only one who has mistaken "cis" to be associated with sexuality. Anyone i've discussed these terms with before has thought the same. First I heard of the term was probably 3 years ago when an impolite gay/queer man referred to me as a "cis male" and in the context of the conversation, it certainly seemed that my sexual orientation was was being commented on. But if that's the tall horse you want to keep talking from, that's fine.

I'm also not the only one who has stated their sexual orientation on here. In fairness, you went into more detail about yours than anyone else, so what are you balling about? For someone 40 odd years of Queer behind you, you're going on a bit juvenile and you're carrying a chip on one shoulder and an ego on the other. Must be some burden with all that skin in the game.

You may have proudly claimed "Queer", but the OP has a problem with the label and that's understandable. You can identify as an Elephant for all I care. My point was that I at least in some way understood why the OP had an issue with the Queer labelling and I think it was important to set out why.

Your commentary in the last paragraph of your first response came across as nothing less than dismissive, with a bit of bigot in there too. I haven't oppressed you for 40 years, so perhaps leave your hate somewhere else.

Dick Turnip

OP, genuinely don't want to sound too flippant by this but honestly why do you care what Stonewall call your relationship? They're a charity in the UK, they are not the definitive rulebook on life.

If I was asked before reading this thread what to describe your relationship, I'd have just said it's a bi man in a straight relationship. What term do you call it yourself?

VENEATS

ztoical wrote: »

OP I can respect that you don't feel comfortable using the word queer but I'm confused as you keep saying they are using it to describe you. Like its a direct personal reference to you. Maybe you can expand on that and explain clearer exactly what the offence is.

Do you mean when say an organisation releases a press release and uses the LGBTQ+? I could understand if they were using queer on its own someone taking offence but when its part of the entire group why do you think the Q is directed at you? I understand its a slur to you but do you not look to the B and see that as you? What if you and I were attending an event that was being covered by LGBTQ+ I don't use bisexual, it doesn't represent me, I am queer and thats the word I want used so why do you get to decided that Q is removed and replaced with + ? I would be offended to have it replaced as I would feel I was being removed and unwelcome

I went to pride with my wife, two years ago (never again). Pride is usually great and friendly. I go to pride to celebrate past fighters, mostly. And as we spoke to randons at pride the amount of times I got called both the q word and our relationship being Q. At one of these I said, I'm not Queer and basically said what I've said here. What I got was an intense . And I dont blame them. When RTE (etc) calls bi people Queer and let people call bi relationships queer they are giving licence to that.

I think the Q word is a slur, you dont have to. But I do think the word should only be used in instances where someone like yourself, explicitly, asks to be called that. I think publications should never use the Q word to describe anyone in the LGBTI+ who isnt Q.

The people, I've no issue with. I dont believe people like yourself should be committed from LGBTI+. There is an obvious link between LGBT people and Q people so it makes sense.

ztoical

VENEATS wrote: »

I went to pride with my wife, two years ago (never again). Pride is usually great and friendly. I go to pride to celebrate past fighters, mostly. And as we spoke to randons at pride the amount of times I got called both the q word and our relationship being Q. At one of these I said, I'm not Queer and basically said what I've said here. What I got was an intense . And I dont blame them. When RTE (etc) calls bi people Queer and let people call bi relationships queer they are giving licence to that.

I'm sorry that happened to you. If someone makes it clear they aren't comfortable with any language being used people need to respect that. There are unfortunately always A*holes who misgender people, bring up dead names or use words they know will get a rise out of people nearly always just for their own amusement or to mask their own issues. Its not representative, at least in my experience, of the vast majority of the community.

Ten of Swords

KKV and Ghost, there is no need for accusations being directed at other posters, let's keep posts civil and on topic please

VENEATS

ztoical wrote: »

I'm sorry that happened to you. If someone makes it clear they aren't comfortable with any language being used people need to respect that. There are unfortunately always A*holes who misgender people, bring up dead names or use words they know will get a rise out of people nearly always just for their own amusement or to mask their own issues. Its not representative, at least in my experience, of the vast majority of the community.

But rte (and I'm just using them as an example) and Stonewall etc. wouldnt dare misgender or dead name intentionally. If they did, I think that behaviour would be more common.

VENEATS

I thank every respondent. I hope, I wasnt too much of an a-hole and glad to see the thread was mostly respectful.

I wont be responding anymore. I think I got what I wanted out of it.

And even though I take issue with certain things, I dont dislike the people who define themselves as Queer. Coming out and telling the world who you are is a great thing (hard, but worthwhile).

AllForIt

ztoical wrote: »

OP I can respect that you don't feel comfortable using the word queer but I'm confused as you keep saying they are using it to describe you. Like its a direct personal reference to you. Maybe you can expand on that and explain clearer exactly what the offence is.

Do you mean when say an organisation releases a press release and uses the LGBTQ+? I could understand if they were using queer on its own someone taking offence but when its part of the entire group why do you think the Q is directed at you? I understand its a slur to you but do you not look to the B and see that as you? What if you and I were attending an event that was being covered by LGBTQ+ I don't use bisexual, it doesn't represent me, I am queer and thats the word I want used so why do you get to decided that Q is removed and replaced with + ? I would be offended to have it replaced as I would feel I was being removed and unwelcome

I was listening to an interview for pride month with some UK activist the other day and she constantly refereed to the gay demographic as 'queer people'. If she want's to identity as queer herself that's fine (as in I've better things to do that get my knickers in a twist about something like that) but she was using it to refer to the whole of the gay demographic. Morto.

ztoical

AllForIt wrote: »

I was listening to an interview for pride month with some UK activist the other day and she constantly refereed to the gay demographic as 'queer people'. If she want's to identity as queer herself that's fine (as in I've better things to do that get my knickers in a twist about something like that) but she was using it to refer to the whole of the gay demographic. Morto.

Activists have used it since the 80s in the US as a direct reaction to the AIDS crisis, it was used as a way of offending the Reagan version of america that was so against them. While many groups like Act Up used Aids as much as possible to bring it to the forefront off shot groups from them like Queer Nation purposely opted to use Queer over Gay as they wanted to offend straight people, they wanted to throw their slurs back at them. It was the same approach used by African Americans with groups like NWA - what is the N meant to stand for. It's a term called “derogatory from the outside, not from within,” to take something used to attack you and turn it around and use it as a weapon.

The result of this of course is that words then change, get brought into the mainstream and you get tv shows targeted at straight audiences called 'Queer eye for the straight guy' You have a whole generation now of young people coming up who don't have the slur association, for a lot of them maybe the first time they saw a gay person on tv was a show like Queer eye or Queer as folk and as such they only have positive associations and many youth groups like I mentioned much earlier in the thread will use queer as its felt to be more inclusive then gay.

No one should ever be directly refereed to by words they don't feel comfortable and if you ask someone to stop they should respect that for individuals but as a general use word within the community it would be difficult to remove.