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No more motorways - what ya reckon?
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Because he will bankrupt the country with his ill conceived ideas and then you will be learning to speak Cantonese as the Chinese laugh all the way to the bank.0
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Because he will bankrupt the country with his ill conceived ideas and then you will be learning to speak Cantonese as the Chinese laugh all the way to the bank.
and how would he do that given he isn't the only one who makes the decisions and the decisions he makes wouldn't bankrupt the country.
even the very topic of this thread isn't a decision he made but rather the natural conclusion of a project that is almost complete anyway.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »and how would he do that given he isn't the only one who makes the decisions and the decisions he makes wouldn't bankrupt the country.
even the very topic of this thread isn't a decision he made but rather the natural conclusion of a project that is almost complete anyway.
People read stuff on social media, believe it and repeat it. The comment above is a excellent example of it.0 -
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Not really. The damage to the countryside would be high for the minimal cars that would travel it. They would be better served putting in a proper train network for those locations.
What planet do you live on. If there is going to be minimal travel then how on earth would you fund a railway!0 -
Charles Babbage wrote: »What planet do you live on. If there is going to be minimal travel then how on earth would you fund a railway!
Tax money of course. Is that not what the whole thread is about?Charles Babbage wrote: »If you do not have a drivers licence then you have limited your lifestyle and you cannot participate in many aspects of life at all. To choose such an impoverished life is a sign of a lack of imagination.
Still wondering if you could give us a hint on what you can't participate in life without a car?0 -
Charles Babbage wrote: »What planet do you live on. If there is going to be minimal travel then how on earth would you fund a railway!
In the same manner motorways are funded, one assumes.0 -
Because he will bankrupt the country with his ill conceived ideas and then you will be learning to speak Cantonese as the Chinese laugh all the way to the bank.
Surely by not wasting a few billion on pointless motorway projects is going to take the state even further away from bankruptcy(if that were possible)?
Why will we be learning Catonese? What does China have to do with this?
I'M LOST! :eek:0 -
Tax money of course. Is that not what the whole thread is about?
Still wondering if you could give us a hint on what you can't participate in life without a car?
I can give two examples.
I used to work on a direct bus route from where I lived, a different job meant a bus, a walk, a dart and another bus. Even though I was only two or three stops from the terminus in bad weather multiple busses could pass before one would have room to stop. So in bad weather I could be standing at a stop for the best part of an hour in the rain and not reliably get to work on time. A car meant half the commute time, being dry and reliably getting to work on time.
My nearest family is about two hours away by car. If I was to use public transport I would have to allow two days for a return trip because of bus timetables and connection times. Public transport would also work out more expensive for the trip, even not allowing for the possible expense of overnight accommodation.
Apart from water, food and shelter we need few extras to survive but those extras add opportunity and richness to life.0 -
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FishOnABike wrote: »I can give two examples.
I used to work on a direct bus route from where I lived, a different job meant a bus, a walk, a dart and another bus. Even though I was only two or three stops from the terminus in bad weather multiple busses could pass before one would have room to stop. So in bad weather I could be standing at a stop for the best part of an hour in the rain and not reliably get to work on time. A car meant half the commute time, being dry and reliably getting to work on time.
My nearest family is about two hours away by car. If I was to use public transport I would have to allow two days for a return trip because of bus timetables and connection times. Public transport would also work out more expensive for the trip, even not allowing for the possible expense of overnight accommodation.
Apart from water, food and shelter we need few extras to survive but those extras add opportunity and richness to life.
So what you are saying is Ireland has massively underfunded public transport which I 100% agree with, hence why we need to massively invest in public transport now.
Even the app so you can tell when a bus is coming is a great help so you don't have to stand around all day0 -
FishOnABike wrote: »I can give two examples.
I used to work on a direct bus route from where I lived, a different job meant a bus, a walk, a dart and another bus. Even though I was only two or three stops from the terminus in bad weather multiple busses could pass before one would have room to stop. So in bad weather I could be standing at a stop for the best part of an hour in the rain and not reliably get to work on time. A car meant half the commute time, being dry and reliably getting to work on time.
My nearest family is about two hours away by car. If I was to use public transport I would have to allow two days for a return trip because of bus timetables and connection times. Public transport would also work out more expensive for the trip, even not allowing for the possible expense of overnight accommodation.
Apart from water, food and shelter we need few extras to survive but those extras add opportunity and richness to life.
How would additional motorways change that though?0 -
For Dublin/East, I'd say the Eastern bypass and the outer ring road maybe, but I'd accept they are deservedly at the bottom of the heap for Dublin investment priorities. DART underground, Metrolink, Buslinks, cycle lanes, greenways and basically anything else needed to get a decent public transport and cycling network has higher priority. Never say never though, because things like route corridors need to be protected even if the infrastructure doesn't get built for 20-30 years.Were we going to be building any new motorways anyway? Apart from the Cork - Limerick one I can't think of any.0 -
There is definitely a case for a motorway/dual carriageway linking Limerick - Cork - Waterford along the south of the country basically extending the M7 and M9 to meet each other at the M8 in Cork city, would create a loop of motorway around a good chunk of the country.Chris_Heilong wrote: »The sooner we get rid of Eamonn Ryan the better, the man is insane.
I'm not anti Green policy, something needs to be done about air pollution in cities for instance although I do find their "tax the crap out of everyone until they behave" policies a load of bollox but Eamonn Ryan was on the news recently enough in front of the Dail being asked about covid and saying how there were alot of deaths, cases were still rising, the hospitals were in trouble etc but all with this smirky laughy grin on his face, f#cking boiled my blood :mad:, the man is either a psychopath or has an actual mental issue to be that detached from reality.0 -
So what you are saying is Ireland has massively underfunded public transport which I 100% agree with, hence why we need to massively invest in public transport now.
Even the app so you can tell when a bus is coming is a great help so you don't have to stand around all day
While I agree our public transport is massively underfunded the point I am making is that it even with the best intention in the world it is no substitute, and could not economically be made so, for the flexibility, opportunity and reliability personal transport gives.
In my examples there was a bus every ten minutes during peak times but could the app predict which busses would be full and bypass my stop before I left my house to walk to the bus stop? As I was the third stop from the terminus the bus arrival times were predictable but not whether they would stop or not in bad weather.
Are mostly empty busses, trams, darts going to be run 24x7 to convenience people who might have to start early, finish late, shift workers, split shift workers, people's social lives - it wouldn't be practical so personal transport is still needed.
Public transport can work for someone who works in the centre and lives on a radial public transport route from the centre but the further one departs from that the more it becomes trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
For lots of people public transport is impractical, we need investment in both public transport and in our road networks. It's not a question of either or. Some parts of our national road network are still seriously deficient and need significant investment.0 -
There are people here who seem to think it is an all or nothing approach,
No motorways and no cars and all public transport and go to a fully functional integrated transport network that is efficient, secure and effective and isn't opposed by vested interests, that works at full operational capacity from a standing start.
They want to foist the difficulties, inconveniences and problems of that on the end user, the private transport user, ie the employed, the commuter or any person who needs to get from A to B in a reasonably efficient manner. The current set-up we find ourselves with is following years/decades of poor planning by CoCos and the State. It is not going to get fixed by idealism and force everyone out of their cars. Public transport does not always suit every journey, interaction or work type that requires to get someone from A to B.
At the moment, imo we should try gradually change over, we could utilise the motorways for mass transport by sufficient, comfortable intercity buses for commuters, but at the same time start building Metros and intercity rail where appropriate, but even then there will never be a complete move away from private vehicle ownership. Bicycles will never suit everyone for their transport means, and I think some people want us to go back to the horse and cart to satiate their idealism.
Hypocrisy doesn't work, because some politicians despite their alleged Green credentials oppose Metros???
I have suggested years ago, it could be reasonable to minimise the commuter traffic jams/chaos/delays and subsequent pollution in cities from stationary jams, by in the short term having sufficient multistory car parking outside major cities, where drivers coming from all over the place and far afield could park and be bused into the city centres more quickly AND to have station like stops at main circumferential routes, such as in Dublin at the M50, and possibly additionally at the level of an outer ring road, so that commuters/travellers can travel around the City rather than its current format where most people are predominantly needlessly forced to travel into the city to get out to another area.
I'd suggest that should be implemented alongside the construction of Metros for the same purposes, preferably where the geology suits, built underground (it seems to be possible in other cities) and likely built under the Motorways.
Ultimately we could phase out or reduce buses as the predominant means of commuter and intercity public transport and have those for local levels of travel to larger towns AND replace that with an improved national intercity train network and metro commuters (that functions) which could be expanded as required.
This isn't going to happen overnight so even though I consider myself an environmentalist, I baulk at the suggestions of idealistic zealots who think the first step is to hamstring people and just force them out of their cars with no credible viable alternative. Remember Eamon Ryan opposed a Metro?? He would feed us to the wolves if it suited his agenda, literally.
Obviously many areas will never justify having a train network built to it, and buses might only ever be the main public transport means. Some work/employment types and locations, there will never be a viable alternative for transport other than small vehicles, so if it's possible to switch to hybrids or EVs over time (which at least remove some or all of the localised pollution create by ICE at the point of use) that may achieve something. Obviously EVs and hybrids aren't a silver magic bullet solution and manufacturers will have to look at secondary uses for batteries no longer viable for vehicular use (such as battery stores for domestic solar PV) and ultimately environmentally sound methods to break them down safely for re-use or disposal.
Some suggestions seem to want to foist idealistic notions we are going to go from our current situation to a modern clean efficient scenario where public transport is safe, efficient, effective in zero time and this will be achieved not by gradually occurring and bringing people around and providing alternatives, but by beating them into it with punitive measures, an idealistic all stick and no alternative, let alone carrot method.
I would say as we have historically had a significantly more rural agrarian development and economic activity, and so the natural development how our society's domestic housing stock built up, is around where it traditionally was already.
This means it has always been varied and even remote. We have mainly been disparate from others in this, so we can not readily or easily be compared to Germany the UK or even others as some try to do. Our Geography and history are different. Nations we are compared to had heavy industrialised development phases (or simply Independant development) and consequently housing was concentrated around areas of industry. In some (even many) cases, complete areas have been flattened and rebuilt due to modern warfare.
Our existing development of domestic structures is still around the sporadic haphazard places that occurred with our history.
Even though creating a mass transport system to suit what and where our housing is now is likely to be more expensive than if development of the last 30 years had been ensible,
It will still be cheaper to build up a transport network around that now, than what might be the alternative, which seems to me would be to knock down existing habitable structures and rebuild in less area/areas but more densely.
As that isn't happening now, because despite a history of poor planning and sprawling development, CoCos dont seem to want to develop even our main Cities into a more high rise setup and this seems to be to preserve what in many cases are decrepit buildings and structures that are no longer fit for purpose and are simply old.
I for one dont want to see a characterless build up, but it's possible to have modern, character, and quality development at the same time, I'd be more inclined to think vested interests and cost cutting prevents that.
Until an alternative is available, we are going to continue as we are, and no one is going to vote for someone who proposes forcing them onto a poorly functioning transport network when the CoCos and State persist and refuse to change with the times themselves and permit modern sensible development of transport and housing.0 -
correct horse battery staple wrote: »Why do the Greens always try to reduce arguments to zero sum choices of roads vs bikes/public transport or more extreme example of creating a giant straw man like the GLUAS in Galway?
Why can’t there be a mix of solutions you know to actually solve problems and not waste time virtue signaling
I for one don’t want progress to stop and revert to some vision of de industrialised living in caves, I embrace progress and have a hybrid, good home insulation, solar water and pv+battery system, work from home from rural location on fibre broadband and gaaasp grow fruit and veggies in garden. Yet the greens absolutely piss me off especially when Eamon opens his gob
I think you have wrong way around, anyone mentions a green policy and loads of people throw hands up in air shouting they can’t not use their car and don’t want to live in Stone Age etc etc etc
If you read the thread, you will find the environmental minded people are giving sensible answers while responses from other is about China and the end of the world0 -
There are people here who seem to think it is an all or nothing approach,
No motorways and no cars and all public transport and go to a fully functional integrated transport network that is efficient, secure and effective and isn't opposed by vested interests, that works at full operational capacity from a standing start.
They want to foist the difficulties, inconveniences and problems of that on the end user, the private transport user, ie the employed, the commuter or any person who needs to get from A to B in a reasonably efficient manner. The current set-up we find ourselves with is following years/decades of poor planning by CoCos and the State. It is not going to get fixed by idealism and force everyone out of their cars. Public transport does not always suit every journey, interaction or work type that requires to get someone from A to B.
At the moment, imo we should try gradually change over, we could utilise the motorways for mass transport by sufficient, comfortable intercity buses for commuters, but at the same time start building Metros and intercity rail where appropriate, but even then there will never be a complete move away from private vehicle ownership. Bicycles will never suit everyone for their transport means, and I think some people want us to go back to the horse and cart to satiate their idealism.
Hypocrisy doesn't work, because some politicians despite their alleged Green credentials oppose Metros???
I have suggested years ago, it could be reasonable to minimise the commuter traffic jams/chaos/delays and subsequent pollution in cities from stationary jams, by in the short term having sufficient multistory car parking outside major cities, where drivers coming from all over the place and far afield could park and be bused into the city centres more quickly AND to have station like stops at main circumferential routes, such as in Dublin at the M50, and possibly additionally at the level of an outer ring road, so that commuters/travellers can travel around the City rather than its current format where most people are predominantly needlessly forced to travel into the city to get out to another area.
I'd suggest that should be implemented alongside the construction of Metros for the same purposes, preferably where the geology suits, built underground (it seems to be possible in other cities) and likely built under the Motorways.
Ultimately we could phase out or reduce buses as the predominant means of commuter and intercity public transport and have those for local levels of travel to larger towns AND replace that with an improved national intercity train network and metro commuters (that functions) which could be expanded as required.
This isn't going to happen overnight so even though I consider myself an environmentalist, I baulk at the suggestions of idealistic zealots who think the first step is to hamstring people and just force them out of their cars with no credible viable alternative. Remember Eamon Ryan opposed a Metro?? He would feed us to the wolves if it suited his agenda, literally.
Obviously many areas will never justify having a train network built to it, and buses might only ever be the main public transport means. Some work/employment types and locations, there will never be a viable alternative for transport other than small vehicles, so if it's possible to switch to hybrids or EVs over time (which at least remove some or all of the localised pollution create by ICE at the point of use) that may achieve something. Obviously EVs and hybrids aren't a silver magic bullet solution and manufacturers will have to look at secondary uses for batteries no longer viable for vehicular use (such as battery stores for domestic solar PV) and ultimately environmentally sound methods to break them down safely for re-use or disposal.
Some suggestions seem to want to foist idealistic notions we are going to go from our current situation to a modern clean efficient scenario where public transport is safe, efficient, effective in zero time and this will be achieved not by gradually occurring and bringing people around and providing alternatives, but by beating them into it with punitive measures, an idealistic all stick and no alternative, let alone carrot method.
I would say as we have historically had a significantly more rural agrarian development and economic activity, and so the natural development how our society's domestic housing stock built up, is around where it traditionally was already.
This means it has always been varied and even remote. We have mainly been disparate from others in this, so we can not readily or easily be compared to Germany the UK or even others as some try to do. Our Geography and history are different. Nations we are compared to had heavy industrialised development phases (or simply Independant development) and consequently housing was concentrated around areas of industry. In some (even many) cases, complete areas have been flattened and rebuilt due to modern warfare.
Our existing development of domestic structures is still around the sporadic haphazard places that occurred with our history.
Even though creating a mass transport system to suit what and where our housing is now is likely to be more expensive than if development of the last 30 years had been ensible,
It will still be cheaper to build up a transport network around that now, than what might be the alternative, which seems to me would be to knock down existing habitable structures and rebuild in less area/areas but more densely.
As that isn't happening now, because despite a history of poor planning and sprawling development, CoCos dont seem to want to develop even our main Cities into a more high rise setup and this seems to be to preserve what in many cases are decrepit buildings and structures that are no longer fit for purpose and are simply old.
I for one dont want to see a characterless build up, but it's possible to have modern, character, and quality development at the same time, I'd be more inclined to think vested interests and cost cutting prevents that.
Until an alternative is available, we are going to continue as we are, and no one is going to vote for someone who proposes forcing them onto a poorly functioning transport network when the CoCos and State persist and refuse to change with the times themselves and permit modern sensible development of transport and housing.
All of this post, teh point is the motorways are now finished, they are already in place so all investment except for cork Limerick one should be in public transport
If it was 30 years ago the post might be relevant , we don’t have an unlimited budget so the way forward is mass public transport improvements, if people still want to drive a car, bang away, use the roads already provided0 -
This is exactly what the BusConnects programme is addressing - providing more bus services and connectivity without having to go through the city centre.FishOnABike wrote: »Public transport can work for someone who works in the centre and lives on a radial public transport route from the centre but the further one departs from that the more it becomes trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.0 -
If I was running for government Id make a key pledge to build the biggest and bestest cycle lanes all around the country, cycle lanes the like of which you've never seen!! *QUEUE APPLAUSE*
And id do just that, they'd be approx 25m wide overall with two lanes going in either direction linking all the major cities :pac:0 -
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correct horse battery staple wrote: »You don’t think that is a bit shortsighted?
There are significant populations not served by motorway network for that matter if we ever reunify with north literally building better roads to tie communities would help cement the reunion as Germany has done
There really isn't much justification for more motorways though? I'm not holding my breath for a united Ireland anytime soon but if there is one then maybe a motoway from Derry to link to the M1 would be needed but I'd be more focused on infrastructure in the state we have for now. Other than linking Cork and Limerick and some smaller projects it is very hard to justify spending public money on motorways when some improved ordinary roads would do. The money would be better spent on resurfacing works on existing roads and improvements in public transport.0 -
What about people living out the country?AndrewJRenko wrote: »This is exactly what the BusConnects programme is addressing - providing more bus services and connectivity without having to go through the city centre.
I live in Kilkenny, roughly around the middle of the county. I work in Kilkenny. The nearest bus route is the Dublin/Waterford one, 3 miles away. it doesn't go to Kilkenny.
Unless we make live exclusively in a town/city and have no need to leave the area, then personal transport is a must.
That requires roads, and good roads at that. And motorways, being the best and fastest roads out there, are quickly becoming the lifeblood for businesses and people operating outside the cities. And the more we have the better.0 -
FishOnABike wrote: »For lots of people public transport is impractical, we need investment in both public transport and in our road networks. It's not a question of either or. Some parts of our national road network are still seriously deficient and need significant investment.
No, for some people it is impractical.
We need to stop focusing so much on edge cases. The majority of people already use public transport to get into Dublin for example. Obviously rural dwellers are a different scenario.
The national road network is in a vastly better state than public transport infrastructure. The investment in it has vastly outstripped investment in public and active transport for decades. A rebalancing will see investment in roads stripped back and investment in other forms of transport increased.
This does not mean everyone have to immediately abandon their cars. The country is bloody built around people's cars at the moment. A mild change of investment focus does not need an hysterical reaction.0 -
correct horse battery staple wrote: »That’s a reasonable enough position (shock someone on internet agrees) I’m worried however about Greens tacking things to unreasonable extremes instead of you know solving problems
They aren't taking things to extremes. They are incredibly mild in what they do.
People making up hypothetical scenarios are taking things to extremes.0 -
correct horse battery staple wrote: »You don’t think that is a bit shortsighted?
There are significant populations not served by motorway network for that matter if we ever reunify with north literally building better roads to tie communities would help cement the reunion as Germany has done
If a United ireland happens we can worry about it then
No it’s not short sighted, short sighted is thinking adding one more lane to the M50 or building M50 2.0 is going to make a blind bit of difference0 -
There are people here who seem to think it is an all or nothing approach,
No motorways and no cars and all public transport and go to a fully functional integrated transport network that is efficient, secure and effective and isn't opposed by vested interests, that works at full operational capacity from a standing start.
They want to foist the difficulties, inconveniences and problems of that on the end user, the private transport user, ie the employed, the commuter or any person who needs to get from A to B in a reasonably efficient manner. The current set-up we find ourselves with is following years/decades of poor planning by CoCos and the State. It is not going to get fixed by idealism and force everyone out of their cars. Public transport does not always suit every journey, interaction or work type that requires to get someone from A to B.
Car centric planning has foisted the harm of the private transport (the private car owner) onto society as a whole - the pollution that causes hundreds of premature deaths, the loss of public space for storage of private property, the huge public health issues arising.
Lots of people manage to be employed, commuting, getting from a to b in a reasonably efficient manner without driving 80% empty private cars around.0 -
What about people living out the country?
I live in Kilkenny, roughly around the middle of the county. I work in Kilkenny. The nearest bus route is the Dublin/Waterford one, 3 miles away. it doesn't go to Kilkenny.
Unless we make live exclusively in a town/city and have no need to leave the area, then personal transport is a must.
That requires roads, and good roads at that. And motorways, being the best and fastest roads out there, are quickly becoming the lifeblood for businesses and people operating outside the cities. And the more we have the better.
You are one person, drive your car. Not every single person in ireland will be the same
Again we are talking about large public transport project, you are currently driving on roads, keep driving on them
Business don’t need motorway to your house, the main hubs are already connected via motorway….0 -
correct horse battery staple wrote: »You don’t think that is a bit shortsighted?
There are significant populations not served by motorway network for that matter if we ever reunify with north literally building better roads to tie communities would help cement the reunion as Germany has done
There are currently 300 roads crossings between NI and the Republic. How many more would you like?
If there's a need to extend dual carriageway from Derry to Letterkenny then that's fine. There's little or no scope for further major motorway schemes though, bar the M20 and short port access motorways.0 -
What about people living out the country?
I live in Kilkenny, roughly around the middle of the county. I work in Kilkenny. The nearest bus route is the Dublin/Waterford one, 3 miles away. it doesn't go to Kilkenny.
Unless we make live exclusively in a town/city and have no need to leave the area, then personal transport is a must.
That requires roads, and good roads at that. And motorways, being the best and fastest roads out there, are quickly becoming the lifeblood for businesses and people operating outside the cities. And the more we have the better.
How would a new motorway help your particular transport situation?
Nobody is proposing to ban cars. The vast majority of trips are within urban areas and we need to invest in them, as you say rural trips are catered for by the existing road network0 -
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What about people living out the country?
I live in Kilkenny, roughly around the middle of the county. I work in Kilkenny. The nearest bus route is the Dublin/Waterford one, 3 miles away. it doesn't go to Kilkenny.
Unless we make live exclusively in a town/city and have no need to leave the area, then personal transport is a must.
That requires roads, and good roads at that. And motorways, being the best and fastest roads out there, are quickly becoming the lifeblood for businesses and people operating outside the cities. And the more we have the better.
There's a case for improving roads , alignments surfaces ect -
But ,I don't think there's a case for building motorways from everywhere to everywhere ,
And the idea of we'll improve public transport later is a bit daft - as in we'll push everyone into car based transport and living out in the country and then we'll focus on public transport ...Slava ukraini 🇺🇦
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