No more motorways - what ya reckon?

randd1

cgcsb wrote: »

How would a new motorway help your particular transport situation?
Nobody is proposing to ban cars. The vast majority of trips are within urban areas and we need to invest in them, as you say rural trips are catered for by the existing road network

A new one in my area wouldn't. The current one knocked about 10 minutes off my journey to work either to and fro, and 20 for my wife, compared to if we went the ordinary road networks. And we're not alone in that either.

A new motorway, between Cork and Limerick, if planned properly, could certainly improve a lot of the towns and areas along its route.


The same for the Dublin/Galway motorway, if it branched off towards and the northwest corner of Mayo and another branch off that up towards Donegal. And if that was linked to the Galway Limerick route, it would open up the whole west coast.


A serious motorway network in play would actually have the potential to re-vitalise places outside the cities, and possibly entire regions. You don't need them to come right to your front door for them to be highly effective on an area. And in time, there's a strong chance that towns/villages near motorways will become the new transport hubs which could be serviced by public transport that, thanks to a bigger motorway network, can service the country better.


As an aside, I reckon any public transport investment should correlate to changes in planning laws. Looking at the inner city of Dublin, 20/30 high rise apartment blocks being serviced by new bus/light rail routes around the city would be far more cost effective in the long run than building 20/30 housing estates outside the M50 (or selling off parkland inside) and trying to build a bus and possible rail network around it.


And any further expansions of towns/cities should have the roads/rail/utilities built first, rather than having to try and fit them in somewhere afterwards.

ineedeuro

Markcheese wrote: »

There's a case for improving roads , alignments surfaces ect -
But ,I don't think there's a case for building motorways from everywhere to everywhere ,
And the idea of we'll improve public transport later is a bit daft - as in we'll push everyone into car based transport and living out in the country and then we'll focus on public transport ...

Road maintenance is a standard in the government budget, nobody is suggesting to get rid of that and let the existing roads return to pot hole hell.

ineedeuro

randd1 wrote: »

A new one in my area wouldn't. The current one knocked about 10 minutes off my journey to work either to and fro, and 20 for my wife, compared to if we went the ordinary road networks. And we're not alone in that either.

A new motorway, between Cork and Limerick, if planned properly, could certainly improve a lot of the towns and areas along its route.


The same for the Dublin/Galway motorway, if it branched off towards and the northwest corner of Mayo and another branch off that up towards Donegal. And if that was linked to the Galway Limerick route, it would open up the whole west coast.


A serious motorway network in play would actually have the potential to re-vitalise places outside the cities, and possibly entire regions. You don't need them to come right to your front door for them to be highly effective on an area. And in time, there's a strong chance that towns/villages near motorways will become the new transport hubs which could be serviced by public transport that, thanks to a bigger motorway network, can service the country better.


As an aside, I reckon any public transport investment should correlate to changes in planning laws. Looking at the inner city of Dublin, 20/30 high rise apartment blocks being serviced by new bus/light rail routes around the city would be far more cost effective in the long run than building 20/30 housing estates outside the M50 (or selling off parkland inside) and trying to build a bus and possible rail network around it.


And any further expansions of towns/cities should have the roads/rail/utilities built first, rather than having to try and fit them in somewhere afterwards.

Motorway don't re-vitalise areas, they do the opposite. Locals shops etc end up losing out as people travel to larger cities etc instead of shopping local.

end of the road

randd1 wrote: »

What about people living out the country?


I live in Kilkenny, roughly around the middle of the county. I work in Kilkenny. The nearest bus route is the Dublin/Waterford one, 3 miles away. it doesn't go to Kilkenny.


Unless we make live exclusively in a town/city and have no need to leave the area, then personal transport is a must.


That requires roads, and good roads at that. And motorways, being the best and fastest roads out there, are quickly becoming the lifeblood for businesses and people operating outside the cities. And the more we have the better.

for traffic demand outside the intercity network, dual carriage ways would bring the same benefits of motor ways at a lot less cost and even then they would only be viable for the likes of waterford to limerick and other selected projects with the traffic demand that cannnot be handled by improvements to the national road network.
there is just no justification for big motor ways outside the cities, the costs would not stack up for the traffic demand.
good single and dual carriage ways can be the very same lifeblood for those businesses and are just as safe as motor ways since the traffic levels will be a lot lower.

1874

ineedeuro wrote: »

Exactly, so that is why the Greens are saying we need to build a proper public transport system now.

ineedeuro wrote: »

All of this post, teh point is the motorways are now finished, they are already in place so all investment except for cork Limerick one should be in public transport


If it was 30 years ago the post might be relevant , we don’t have an unlimited budget so the way forward is mass public transport improvements, if people still want to drive a car, bang away, use the roads already provided

We dont have an unlimited budget you say, where is all this money going to come for a mass public transport system? The better option would be to eliminate a significant proportion of commuting and just build upwards in cities and on sites near existing transport links.
The rate change happens in CoCos it will take decades before anything happens, not fixing housing, planning or transport.
And you think money not being spent (loaned) for motorways is suddenly going to be diverted to a mass public transport system? I wish it was, either planned, started or existed, the State will do the cheapest laziest option,farm it out to some buddies in the private sector, if we ever get anything, it will likely be poor,not fit for purpose,less than needed, overpriced.
Everyone and the environment will suffer, keep that in mind when you stand behind the Greens, Metro

iColdFusion

ineedeuro wrote: »

Motorway don't re-vitalise areas, they do the opposite. Locals shops etc end up losing out as people travel to larger cities etc instead of shopping local.

I don't think that's true though, they can make those towns much nicer places to live in and increase their population as they are now better connected to the local big city.
Fermoy in Cork used to be a total traffic nightmare every day until it was bypassed by the M8, its actually doing quite well now, same as lots of other towns on the old Cork - Dublin route.

cgcsb

randd1 wrote: »

A new motorway, between Cork and Limerick, if planned properly, could certainly improve a lot of the towns and areas along its route.

I'd say just about everyone agrees with that, even the green party and that's why it'll probably be the last major motorway schemes, with a few short bits here and there in the future.

randd1 wrote: »

The same for the Dublin/Galway motorway, if it branched off towards and the northwest corner of Mayo and another branch off that up towards Donegal. And if that was linked to the Galway Limerick route, it would open up the whole west coast.

There's no traffic case for this. The existing M17 Athenry to Tuam as it is was a serious overdesign and is unlikely to have a reasonable % of it's capacity utilised in it's 30 year project life

randd1 wrote: »

A serious motorway network in play would actually have the potential to re-vitalise places outside the cities, and possibly entire regions. You don't need them to come right to your front door for them to be highly effective on an area. And in time, there's a strong chance that towns/villages near motorways will become the new transport hubs which could be serviced by public transport that, thanks to a bigger motorway network, can service the country better.

That's out though, the future is compact growth on mostly brownfield sites within the cities as a mater of policy. Driving rural growth with motorway construction is an archaic concept.

randd1 wrote: »

As an aside, I reckon any public transport investment should correlate to changes in planning laws. Looking at the inner city of Dublin, 20/30 high rise apartment blocks being serviced by new bus/light rail routes around the city would be far more cost effective in the long run than building 20/30 housing estates outside the M50 (or selling off parkland inside) and trying to build a bus and possible rail network around it.


And any further expansions of towns/cities should have the roads/rail/utilities built first, rather than having to try and fit them in somewhere afterwards.

That's what's been said to government by all and sundry for 60-70 years but they just wont do it.

RandomViewer

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yeah, I remember 76 too. The max temperature in Canada that year was about 25% lower than what they're experiencing this week. But sure maybe we should wait for a clearer sign that something is up?

https://twitter.com/Krubuntu/status/1409687246177923076




They'd rarely get my No.1 funnily enough, but on their behalf and my own, thanks so much for all that space in your head that you're letting us have for no charge.

Comparatively how many measuring station then and Now and how does it compare to temperatures in the 17th century

AndrewJRenko

RandomViewer wrote: »

Comparatively how many measuring station then and Now and how does it compare to temperatures in the 17th century

If you want me to do your research for you, we'll need to agree an hourly rate.

AndrewJRenko

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I actually agree with you but if you apply same reasoning to Greenpeace whose members morphed into green parties around world then their opposition to nuclear power resulted in million deaths in last 3 decades as instead of clean power hydrocarbons were burned for electricity, we lost at least 3 decades in addressing climate change by this crusade.

I'm not sure it is entirely fair to blame the Greens (1 year in Government out of last 10 years, 4 years in Government out of last 100 years) for our lack of progress on nuclear power.

It was interesting to see Ryan saying that we may have to consider nuclear power in the future, just last week.

cnocbui

In most instances, motorways are overkill. All that is needed to dramatically improve many routes is overtaking sections - many of which don't even need road widening, just replace hard shoulders with some painted lines.

FGR

Is the R710 dual carriageway along the south of Waterford City a standard 2+2 ? If it is then I'm against the idea of doing that around the country given the ridiculous number of roundabouts along the course of it.

If they were to bring 2+2 as opposed to motorway for remaining areas outside of the M20 - they would need to have some sort of control over access - grade separation being as expensive as it is can be far safer than any other alternative.

FGR

cnocbui wrote: »

dramatically improve many routes is overtaking sections

Badly needed. Too many drivers on our roads sit 20/30/40kph below the limit in a 100kph zone. It's understandable when the road conditions require it but not when the sun is beating down and they can easily move over to let a mile+ tail pass but for whatever reason won't.

Kewreeuss

Most rail stations have car parking and feeder buses.
Would it be feasible to have a small number of parking spots at motorway bus stops near by-passed villages?

Markcheese

Kewreeuss wrote: »

Most rail stations have car parking and feeder buses.
Would it be feasible to have a small number of parking spots at motorway bus stops near by-passed villages?

The idea that an intercity coach could have a dedicated and safe pull in under a motorway bridge by a town ,with a small interchange nearby , for local bus, taxi and drop offs , would stop bus eireann having to do the likes of their cork to Dublin "express" ,that takes 4 or 5 hours and has to travel up the old road , unlike the direct route that does the trip in 2 and a half hours ..

ineedeuro

FGR wrote: »

Badly needed. Too many drivers on our roads sit 20/30/40kph below the limit in a 100kph zone. It's understandable when the road conditions require it but not when the sun is beating down and they can easily move over to let a mile+ tail pass but for whatever reason won't.

Easy fix, you implement a penalty points for driving too slow as well as driving too fast. Driving slow can be just as dangerous because you will always have some clown that will risk his life and everyone else to pass when not safe

AndrewJRenko

randd1 wrote: »

What about people living out the country?


I live in Kilkenny, roughly around the middle of the county. I work in Kilkenny. The nearest bus route is the Dublin/Waterford one, 3 miles away. it doesn't go to Kilkenny.


Unless we make live exclusively in a town/city and have no need to leave the area, then personal transport is a must.


That requires roads, and good roads at that. And motorways, being the best and fastest roads out there, are quickly becoming the lifeblood for businesses and people operating outside the cities. And the more we have the better.

If you're going to choose to live in the middle of nowhere, you're not going to have a bus stop or motorway junction or train station at your front door.

There's obviously a planning question about whether we continue to enable ribbon development, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

We do need to do better at providing public transport within reasonable reach, and allowing people to connect from other modes - safe bike parking, park-and-ride facilities.

RandomViewer

This roof that they are going to over everywhere to stop the rain is going to be some project,

magicbastarder

ineedeuro wrote: »

Easy fix, you implement a penalty points for driving too slow as well as driving too fast. Driving slow can be just as dangerous because you will always have some clown that will risk his life and everyone else to pass when not safe

you penalise the clown who will risk his life and everyone else in this scenario. their decision to pass when it's not safe is theirs and theirs alone.

pockets3d

Very inclusive alright.

ineedeuro

pockets3d wrote: »

Very inclusive alright.

What would like to see? Not sure what a image of ireland motorway is for?

With electric cars and the proliferation of working from home people will move out of crowded places like Dublin for better quality housing in regional and rural locations rather than:
A) live in expensive apartments
commute in traffic
C) crowd into public transport

The next pandemic may not be so forgiving in terms of death rates, we should learn the lessons. Apartments, high density, car sharing and public transport are not a good mix.

We should be moving to accommodation with larger roof spans to hold solar panels, collect rainwater (even if just for toilet flushing and for gardens), solar hot water etc. All while trying to increase the home ownership rate. While encouraging people to have gardens for bird and insect habitat. People will enjoy the health benefits of pet ownership and gardening, both if which increase life expectancy.

High density apartment living and no private car ownership is what this is about eamonn ryan says as much. He is against sprawl, fair enough, but offers the worst solutions.

High density apartment lifestyle without your own way of getting around absolutely reeks of living to work.

Cars are freedom, cars are great, cars are convenient and cars can be electric and green. Build the future for cars. If population is the real issue here then deal with that before dragging the quality of life into the gutter.

ineedeuro

Deleted User wrote: »

With electric cars and the proliferation of working from home people will move out of crowded places like Dublin for better quality housing in regional and rural locations rather than:
A) live in expensive apartments
commute in traffic
C) crowd into public transport

The next pandemic may not be so forgiving in terms of death rates, we should learn the lessons. Apartments, high density, car sharing and public transport are not a good mix.

We should be moving to accommodation with larger roof spans to hold solar panels, collect rainwater (even if just for toilet flushing and for gardens), solar hot water etc. All while trying to increase the home ownership rate. While encouraging people to have gardens for bird and insect habitat. People will enjoy the health benefits of pet ownership and gardening, both if which increase life expectancy.

High density apartment living and no private car ownership is what this is about eamonn ryan says as much. He is against sprawl, fair enough, but offers the worst solutions.

High density apartment lifestyle without your own way of getting around absolutely reeks of living to work.

Cars are freedom, cars are great, cars are convenient and cars can be electric and green. Build the future for cars. If population is the real issue here then deal with that before dragging the quality of life into the gutter.

Not everyone wants a garden. People want to live in apartments. etc etc etc.
We also don't need "more roof space". We have plenty in our standard houses as is.

Cars are not freedom, cars are not green even if electric. Just because you don't have a car doesn't mean your life is in the gutter, if you depend on a car to have a life you have bigger issues.

So much wrong with that post.

FishOnABike

ineedeuro wrote: »

What would like to see? Not sure what a image of ireland motorway is for?

I think it clearly illustrates that we do not have a complete intercity network as was claimed by some earlier in the thread.

The question has to be asked what standard of roads do we need outside of the current motorway network. Rosslare to Cork / West Cork / Kerry, Rosslart to the end of the existing M11, Waterford to Limerick, End of M18 to Sligo + Donegal, Dublin to the entire North West.

There are still significant defecits in our national road network needing improved roads and bypasses be it motorway, dual carriage way or whatever.

plodder

If people are going to be moving out of large cities such as Dublin due to the pandemic, then they should be encouraged to move to towns and villages rather than the country-side. You can't eliminate all car journeys, but kids should be able to walk or cycle to school. You should be able to walk to your local shop or pub, so some car journeys can be eliminated. It's not just about CO2 and the benefit of EV's, but in my (anecdotal) experience, the traffic in many mid sized towns in this country can be as bad or worse than Dublin city, due to traffic generated from the rural hinterland.

As for further motorways (other than the ones I mentioned already) maybe continuing the M17 (which isn't shown on the map on previous page) to Sligo might make sense in the long run. If we hadn't frittered all that money on the western rail corridor, then the argument would be even stronger.

Tilden Katz

nc6000 wrote: »

Were we going to be building any new motorways anyway? Apart from the Cork - Limerick one I can't think of any.

M20 Cork - Limerick and finish the M4 to Sligo, maybe extending it up into Donegal, an ever-neglected part of the country.

Finish the M17 all the way to Sligo too.

That should do it.

cgcsb

Tilden Katz wrote: »

M20 Cork - Limerick and finish the M4 to Sligo, maybe extending it up into Donegal, an ever-neglected part of the country.

Finish the M17 all the way to Sligo too.

That should do it.

There just isn't a case for extending the M17 to Sligo, single carriageway is plenty of capacity. The funny thing about Donegal is that they think a motorway will solve their economic problems despite that not being the case anywhere else. If there is ever a motorway in Donegal, there'll be widespread shock when the structural economic issues remain exactly as they were before. :eek:

ineedeuro

FishOnABike wrote: »

I think it clearly illustrates that we do not have a complete intercity network as was claimed by some earlier in the thread.

The question has to be asked what standard of roads do we need outside of the current motorway network. Rosslare to Cork / West Cork / Kerry, Rosslart to the end of the existing M11, Waterford to Limerick, End of M18 to Sligo + Donegal, Dublin to the entire North West.

There are still significant defecits in our national road network needing improved roads and bypasses be it motorway, dual carriage way or whatever.

You don’t need to build a motorway if the traffic is not needed

ineedeuro

Tilden Katz wrote: »

M20 Cork - Limerick and finish the M4 to Sligo, maybe extending it up into Donegal, an ever-neglected part of the country.

Finish the M17 all the way to Sligo too.

That should do it.

Why? Donegal would be better served with a proper railway link especially for tourism

Tilden Katz

cgcsb wrote: »

There just isn't a case for extending the M17 to Sligo, single carriageway is plenty of capacity. The funny thing about Donegal is that they think a motorway will solve their economic problems despite that not being the case anywhere else. If there is ever a motorway in Donegal, there'll be widespread shock when the structural economic issues remain exactly as they were before. :eek:

Maybe it doesn’t need to be motorway-standard exactly but I don’t know anybody who drives from Knock Airport - Sligo Town regularly who doesn’t bitch about the journey or its opposite stretch. Also some parts of the Milltown - Claremorris part are not great even after upgrading. And Ireland is a pretty sparsely populated country. I’m not sure low population is an excuse to keep those roads so crappy. There are other sparsely-populated regions that are furnished with motorways and decent national primaries that those stretches of the N17 lack.

And as somebody who used to frequently travel from Cork City to Galway City, that ridiculously winding stretch of road south of Buttevant is an embarrassment. I wonder does it still have the sharp edges as if the windiness isn’t bad enough?