No more motorways - what ya reckon?

Tilden Katz

ineedeuro wrote: »

Why? Donegal would be better served with a proper railway link especially for tourism

I’d say which would be more beneficial would be a toss up, to be honest. From my experience, people tolerate trains only for as long as they have to. They’re glad they are there are as a sometime mode of transport but that’s about it. I like trains myself but I think a lot of people are a bit misty-eyed and nostalgic about them as a mode of transport. I’ve had to make a lot of cross-country journeys in the last few years where taking the train would have a monumental pain in the arse and I’m talking pre-Covid too. And for holidaying in somewhere like Donegal, cars are definitely more practical than trains. I can say that having grown up a similarly scenic and sparsely populated county that actually has a decent train network.

plodder

Tilden Katz wrote: »

Maybe it doesn’t need to be motorway-standard exactly but I don’t know anybody who drives from Knock Airport - Sligo Town regularly who doesn’t bitch about the journey or its opposite stretch. Also some parts of the Milltown - Claremorris part are not great even after upgrading. And Ireland is a pretty sparsely populated country. I’m not sure low population is an excuse to keep those roads so crappy. There are other sparsely-populated regions that are furnished with motorways and decent national primaries that those stretches of the N17 lack.

And as somebody who used to frequently travel from Cork City to Galway City, that ridiculously winding stretch of road south of Buttevant is an embarrassment. I wonder does it still have the sharp edges as if the windiness isn’t bad enough?

I'd agree. There are justifications for linking the cities other than Dublin together, without having to travel to Dublin first, and it doesn't always have to be based on current traffic levels. Cork, Limerick and Galway are the obvious ones, with Sligo (and its links to Donegal) coming in there too.

Whether it's a motorway is secondary, but look at the local Westport/Castlebar bypass underway. That's not a motorway, but is still costing an eye-popping €400 million.

ineedeuro

Tilden Katz wrote: »

I’d say which would be more beneficial would be a toss up, to be honest. From my experience, people tolerate trains only for as long as they have to. They’re glad they are there are as a sometime mode of transport but that’s about it. I like trains myself but I think a lot of people are a bit misty-eyed and nostalgic about them as a mode of transport. I’ve had to make a lot of cross-country journeys in the last few years where taking the train would have a monumental pain in the arse and I’m talking pre-Covid too. And for holidaying in somewhere like Donegal, cars are definitely more practical than trains. I can say that having grown up a similarly scenic and sparsely populated county that actually has a decent train network.

So again you agree public transport hasn’t been invested in, if it was using it to travel distances would be a lot easier,

Anyone that says trains are not a form of transport hasn’t really travelled to any other country in the World which have excellent train system like all of Europe

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Cars are freedom, cars are great, cars are convenient and cars can be electric and green. Build the future for cars. If population is the real issue here then deal with that before dragging the quality of life into the gutter.

Cars aren't green, even electric cars, except maybe for those with green paintwork. Electric cars shed large amounts of tyre particles and brake pad particles. The environmental cost of manufacturing and disposal is huge. They are extremely inefficient, with 99% of the energy used going into moving the car, not the human cargo.

They are not the future.

cnocbui

ineedeuro wrote: »

Why? Donegal would be better served with a proper railway link especially for tourism

I have travelled to Italy with two kids and luggage for a week and travelled by train. They are a pain in the arse for tourists compared to a car. No epidemioligist likes trains or buses.

Heraclius

ineedeuro wrote: »

You don’t need to build a motorway if the traffic is not needed

I'm suddenly imagining a motorway bulldozing its way around the Ring of Beara and Ring of Kerry. Let's not forget that the Aran Islands lack a motorway also. I think it should be a spending priority

FishOnABike

ineedeuro wrote: »

Why? Donegal would be better served with a proper railway link especially for tourism

And how would tourists explore places like the wild adlantic way, innishowen, errigal, glenveagh, poisoned glen, etc.. by rail? If they are going to need a car to explore Donegal they are going to need a good road network to get there.

the butcher

ineedeuro wrote: »

So much wrong with that post.

Well according to that boards poll, the vast majority reading this thread agree with the OP.

Any poll ever in the history of polls, always show that the majority would want a house rather than an apartment.

Heraclius

the butcher wrote: »

Well according to that boards poll, the vast majority reading this thread agree with the OP.

Any poll ever in the history of polls, always show that the majority would want a house rather than an apartment.

The individual wants of people can lead to an outcome that none of them want though. That's why our country is run by representatives rather than by referendum.

Most people may want a house but the result is urban sprawl, difficulty providing quality water and broadband services and long commutes which I doubt anyone would say they wanted in a poll.

FishOnABike

ineedeuro wrote: »

You don’t need to build a motorway if the traffic is not needed

Some areas like Rosslare to Cork, Rosslare to the existing M11, Rosslare to Limerick (via N25 /N24) should be examined for either Motorway or HQDC as they would be important freight routes especially considering the greater importance of direct routes to the continent post Brexit.

timmyntc

cgcsb wrote: »

There just isn't a case for extending the M17 to Sligo, single carriageway is plenty of capacity. The funny thing about Donegal is that they think a motorway will solve their economic problems despite that not being the case anywhere else. If there is ever a motorway in Donegal, there'll be widespread shock when the structural economic issues remain exactly as they were before. :eek:

Nobody wants a full on motorway in Donegal, just proper road alignments, 2&1 in certain sections, and bypasses of several towns.

Also an upgrade of the A5 to Dublin of course.

https://igees.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Housing-Aspirations-and-Preferences-of-Renters.pdf

The mean commute time among respondents was 28 minutes. 59.6% of respondents commuted by car. 53.2% of aspirant owners indicated a preference for the Greater Dublin Area. Respondents indicated a marked preference for three or four bedroom houses
• Given geographic preferences and the strong inclination toward houses over apartments
The preference for three and four bedroom houses and a willingness to undertake lengthy commutes to attain homeownership has implications for the attainment of compact growth and greater urban residential density. Housing markets, if unconstrained, may disproportionately lean toward development in urban peripheries;

Most people do not want high density for themselves, some may want it for other people.

Anyway there doesnt need to be urban sprawl at all, our fertility rate is below replacement levels

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2021/0519/1222517-ireland-birth-rates-falling/

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Cars aren't green, even electric cars, except maybe for those with green paintwork. Electric cars shed large amounts of tyre particles and brake pad particles. The environmental cost of manufacturing and disposal is huge. They are extremely inefficient, with 99% of the energy used going into moving the car, not the human cargo.

They are not the future.

brake pad and tyre particles? are bikes exempt from this?

jaysis, you mean the stuff that is so much worse in highly built up areas and feck all of a problem on motorways?

Among non-exhaust sources, brake wear can be a significant particulate matter (PM) contributor, particularly within areas with high traffic density and braking frequency. Studies mention that in urban environments, brake wear can contribute up to 55 % by mass to total non-exhaust traffic-related PM10 emissions and up to 21 % by mass to total traffic-related PM10 emissions, while in freeways, this contribution is lower due to lower braking frequency.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4315878/


I`d say bring back the horse and cart but the brakes on the cart will kill us all.

Mr. teddywinkles

[Deleted User] wrote: »

High density apartment lifestyle without your own way of getting around absolutely reeks of living to work.

Shure isnt our ol Eamo a champion for working.
Look at him asleep in the Dail there.

Tilden Katz

ineedeuro wrote: »

So again you agree public transport hasn’t been invested in, if it was using it to travel distances would be a lot easier,

Anyone that says trains are not a form of transport hasn’t really travelled to any other country in the World which have excellent train system like all of Europe

That would be an odd thing for anybody to say.

Trains don't get you off the beaten track like cars. Again, experiencing talking. Grew up in a scenic county with a good rail network. I would have missed out on so much if doggedly sticking to those trains.

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

brake pad and tyre particles? are bikes exempt from this?

jaysis, you mean the stuff that is so much worse in highly built up areas and feck all of a problem on motorways?


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4315878/


I`d say bring back the horse and cart but the brakes on the cart will kill us all.

No, bikes are not exempt, but they are in a totally different ballpark, given the size, weight and speeds involved. Bikes don't carry round a tonne or two of steel for each human carried.

Any research on tyre particle emissions on freeways there?

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

With electric cars and the proliferation of working from home people will move out of crowded places like Dublin for better quality housing in regional and rural locations rather than:
A) live in expensive apartments
commute in traffic
C) crowd into public transport

The next pandemic may not be so forgiving in terms of death rates, we should learn the lessons. Apartments, high density, car sharing and public transport are not a good mix.

We should be moving to accommodation with larger roof spans to hold solar panels, collect rainwater (even if just for toilet flushing and for gardens), solar hot water etc. All while trying to increase the home ownership rate. While encouraging people to have gardens for bird and insect habitat. People will enjoy the health benefits of pet ownership and gardening, both if which increase life expectancy.

High density apartment living and no private car ownership is what this is about eamonn ryan says as much. He is against sprawl, fair enough, but offers the worst solutions.

High density apartment lifestyle without your own way of getting around absolutely reeks of living to work.

Cars are freedom, cars are great, cars are convenient and cars can be electric and green. Build the future for cars. If population is the real issue here then deal with that before dragging the quality of life into the gutter.

we have already built the future for cars, it's called our road network.
there does come a time where it has to be said that if one wants to use a car they have to put up with the pitfalls as well as the benefits, and that time is now here as we have built as much road as we can, and all we have left is to upgrade the national roads but that will be to single carriage way mostly with the odd bit of dual where it is justified.
after that however, the state has done it's bit on that score and you have to just get on with it and put up with whatever pitfalls you have to deal with, just like any of us who use the roads.

end of the road

FishOnABike wrote: »

I think it clearly illustrates that we do not have a complete intercity network as was claimed by some earlier in the thread.

The question has to be asked what standard of roads do we need outside of the current motorway network. Rosslare to Cork / West Cork / Kerry, Rosslart to the end of the existing M11, Waterford to Limerick, End of M18 to Sligo + Donegal, Dublin to the entire North West.

There are still significant defecits in our national road network needing improved roads and bypasses be it motorway, dual carriage way or whatever.

most of that doesn't have the traffic to justify anything more then national roads or a bit of dual carriage way here and there, apart from perhapse waterford to limerick.
a dedicated motorway from rosslare to west cork would be the biggest waste of money in the history of the state and would be a complete vanity project.

FishOnABike wrote: »

And how would tourists explore places like the wild adlantic way, innishowen, errigal, glenveagh, poisoned glen, etc.. by rail? If they are going to need a car to explore Donegal they are going to need a good road network to get there.

yes, and an upgrading of what exists will do fine for that traffic for the most part.
odd bit of dual carriage way may be required certainly but mostly single carriage will do if any new bits are required.

FishOnABike wrote: »

Some areas like Rosslare to Cork, Rosslare to the existing M11, Rosslare to Limerick (via N25 /N24) should be examined for either Motorway or HQDC as they would be important freight routes especially considering the greater importance of direct routes to the continent post Brexit.

but again those journeys don't have the traffic to justify such expense apart from a dual carriage way for waterford to limerick and cork to limerick is happening.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

No, bikes are not exempt, but they are in a totally different ballpark, given the size, weight and speeds involved. Bikes don't carry round a tonne or two of steel for each human carried.

Any research on tyre particle emissions on freeways there?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/emanuelabarbiroglio/2020/09/17/device-to-capture-tyre-particles-wins-2000-uk-dyson-award/?sh=3eaa58445284

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/195595/worlds-first-device-capture-harmful-tyre/

Problem solved

Maybe cooking should be banned? We can have robots cook for us and get all our food delivered by uber eats - by flying drone of course so we dont have any brake or tyre particle emissions. Or will we be eating raw vegetables only?

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/83926176.pdf

although traffic emits orders of magnitude more CO and VOC than cooking, particulate matter emissions from cooking are comparable with those emitted from highway vehicles

the butcher

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Electric cars shed large amounts of tyre particles and brake pad particles.

How large are we talking here?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-02/cars-for-sale-surging-demand-in-post-covid-world-makes-prices-expensive?srnd=premium-middle-east

in congested London, many journeys had been much quicker on the Tube, the U.K. capital’s subway system.

But these calculations changed during the pandemic, when taking public transport to his hospital job at the height of the U.K.’s outbreak was an anxiety-inducing experience. Being able to drive himself seemed much safer.

An EY survey of 3,300 consumers in nine countries found that 32% of non-car owners said they intended to get a car in the next six months. About half of those prospective buyers were millennials.

FGR

ineedeuro wrote: »

Not everyone wants a garden. People want to live in apartments. etc etc etc.
We also don't need "more roof space". We have plenty in our standard houses as is.

Cars are not freedom, cars are not green even if electric. Just because you don't have a car doesn't mean your life is in the gutter, if you depend on a car to have a life you have bigger issues.

So much wrong with that post.

I'm all for apartment living too - but not in its current guise.

Quality and standards need to be significantly improved as regards shared spaces, enforcement of rules/regulations and even more importantly again a significant increase in soundproofing to ensure that you're not living at the behest of your neighbours.

FishOnABike

end of the road wrote: »

most of that doesn't have the traffic to justify anything more then national roads or a bit of dual carriage way here and there, apart from perhapse waterford to limerick.
a dedicated motorway from rosslare to west cork would be the biggest waste of money in the history of the state and would be a complete vanity project.


yes, and an upgrading of what exists will do fine for that traffic for the most part.
odd bit of dual carriage way may be required certainly but mostly single carriage will do if any new bits are required.




but again those journeys don't have the traffic to justify such expense apart from a dual carriage way for waterford to limerick and cork to limerick is happening.

Looking at TII Traffic Data Site (trafficdata.tii.ie) the N20 and N25 appear to have similar traffic levels, the N24 would have about 70% the traffic level of either. I think it is reasonable that national intercity routes should be dual carriage or HQDC with a strong preference for grade separated junctions.

Outside of national intercity routes, strategic points like Rosslare harbour and regional access routes e.g. to the northwest should also be given serious consideration for dual or high quality dual carriageways.

end of the road

FishOnABike wrote: »

Looking at TII Traffic Data Site (trafficdata.tii.ie) the N20 and N25 appear to have similar traffic levels, the N24 would have about 70% the traffic level of either. I think it is reasonable that national intercity routes should be dual carriage or HQDC with a strong preference for grade separated junctions.

Outside of national intercity routes, strategic points like Rosslare harbour and regional access routes e.g. to the northwest should also be given serious consideration for dual or high quality dual carriageways.

but again where is the traffic coming from to justify them?
presumably the fact such aren't planned shows the traffic just isn't there to justify them, i would expect they have been considered.
traffic can get from rosslare to almost everywhere in the country via motor way, a little bit indirectly certainly, but for the traffic on offer that would be going to the north west it's perfectly satisfactory, after all we just cannot build direct motor ways from every port to everywhere in the country, it would bankrupt the state 10 fold and the capacity would mostly be disused.
hence what we did, we built between the cities, and then build bits here and there, this ultimately allows traffic to get to where it needs to go via existing motor way for most of the journey without the expense of building dedicated ones to low traffic areas.

We will end up with 30km an hour speed limits in urban areas and ever slower limits on motorways if Eamonn Ryan has his way in a silly misguided attempt to push people into apartments they couldnt afford anyway and onto inconvenient public transport that only goes from suburb to city centre while people work all over the place. The reality is it takes 2 to pay off a house and that couple choose a compromise as to where to live, it may be walkable to one persons work or it may be halfway between both. If they both somehow work in a city centre then they are lucky and would be mad not to get public transport in

Meanwhile:

RandomViewer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We will end up with 30km an hour speed limits in urban areas and ever slower limits on motorways if Eamonn Ryan has his way in a silly misguided attempt to push people into apartments they couldnt afford anyway and onto inconvenient public transport that only goes from suburb to city centre while people work all over the place. The reality is it takes 2 to pay off a house and that couple choose a compromise as to where to live, it may be walkable to one persons work or it may be halfway between both. If they both somehow work in a city centre then they are lucky and would be mad not to get public transport in

Meanwhile:

Ryan's idea of apartments is really 2 berth caravan sized spaces crammed on top of one another, get the feeling that trailer parks and favelas are acceptable housing

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

We will end up with 30km an hour speed limits in urban areas and ever slower limits on motorways if Eamonn Ryan has his way in a silly misguided attempt to push people into apartments they couldnt afford anyway and onto inconvenient public transport that only goes from suburb to city centre while people work all over the place. The reality is it takes 2 to pay off a house and that couple choose a compromise as to where to live, it may be walkable to one persons work or it may be halfway between both. If they both somehow work in a city centre then they are lucky and would be mad not to get public transport in

Meanwhile:

30KPH in the cities where there are pedestrians etc is one of the most sensible motoring policies, it should have been implemented decades ago.
slower speeds on the motor ways probably won't happen but actually that would save money in maintenence costs which could be diverted to the national roads.

RandomViewer

end of the road wrote: »

30KPH in the cities where there are pedestrians etc is one of the most sensible motoring policies, it should have been implemented decades ago.
slower speeds on the motor ways probably won't happen but actually that would save money in maintenence costs which could be diverted to the national roads.

Why do you even bother getting up in the morning, just banal, boring, nit-picking pointless existence, is the the Green way a living death

FishOnABike

end of the road wrote: »

but again where is the traffic coming from to justify them?
presumably the fact such aren't planned shows the traffic just isn't there to justify them, i would expect they have been considered.
traffic can get from rosslare to almost everywhere in the country via motor way, a little bit indirectly certainly, but for the traffic on offer that would be going to the north west it's perfectly satisfactory, after all we just cannot build direct motor ways from every port to everywhere in the country, it would bankrupt the state 10 fold and the capacity would mostly be disused.
hence what we did, we built between the cities, and then build bits here and there, this ultimately allows traffic to get to where it needs to go via existing motor way for most of the journey without the expense of building dedicated ones to low traffic areas.

Both the N20 and N25 exceed the average annual daily traffic levels for a standard single carriageway road and can have over 1000 vehicles per hour at peak traffic flow making it very difficult, if not positively hazardous for local traffic access to the main road.

Large section of both N20 and N25 routes are operating above their design capacity and are in need of upgrading. While their traffic levels are not at motorway level they should be upgraded to dual carriageway.

Traffic levels are not the only consideration for development of our road network. For the same reason we have public service obligation routes and supports for public transport we need a similar public service obligation for road infrastructure to regions such as the north west.

AndrewJRenko

RandomViewer wrote: »

Ryan's idea of apartments is really 2 berth caravan sized spaces crammed on top of one another, get the feeling that trailer parks and favelas are acceptable housing

I'm not sure that making up fairy stories adds much to the discussion.