No more motorways - what ya reckon?

Thelonious Monk

It's hilarious that so many narrow minded people think people dont want to live in apartments

biko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yeah, sure who'd be interested in cycling holidays anyway

That's fine, you keep going on your cycle holidays, I am not depriving you of that.
Do you want to deprive people of motoring holidays?

cgcsb

Can we separate the posts calling Eamon Ryan names and making up what he thinks into a different Eamon Ryan bashing thread?

He's one of my least favourite politicians to be honest but these posts are just abuse for the sake of abuse and most are based on fictional accounts about what he supposedly thinks.

biko

The way the anti-motoring industry will try to nab you is by pressing politicians to increase tax on your car, your fuel, your motor tax etc.
They will then claim owning a car is unsustainable because it's so expensive.

cgcsb

biko wrote: »

The way the anti-motoring industry will try to nab you is by pressing politicians to increase tax on your car, your fuel, your motor tax etc.
They will then claim owning a car is unsustainable because it's so expensive.

What is the anti motoring industry?

Owning a car is expensive but most of the cost is socialised for some reason.

cnocbui

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's hilarious that so many narrow minded people think people dont want to live in apartments

Not as hilarious a greenies being unable to see there is a global trend of people fleeing apartments for as large a house as they can afford and in many cases, out of cities altogether and to regional/rural villages and towns if they can work from home, where houses are more affordable and better value. It is a universal phenomenon in the developed world. Housing markets in OECD countries are on fire.

Apartments are for the poor, those on low incomes, and retirees no longer up for gardening.

1874

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's hilarious that so many narrow minded people think people dont want to live in apartments

It is not hilarious that some people want to foist their choice to live in an apartment (for which there are many problems in this country) onto others.
Significantly, many apartment owners I have come across have had problems, dealing with noise, problems with management or due to others not paying their fees, parking, security, property damage/theft, bins being misused, crime and imo their quality of life.
Some of these people have lived in apartments abroad, there is a significant difference as I saw some of those places.


All of these problems could occur for traditional home owner/occupant and should be reasons that are dealt with better that makes apartment living more attractive, but that simply isnt the case despite your protests its better.
As a home occupant I have more choice and control over all these things than I do as an apartment occupant.



Until all the problems associated with apartment living are fixed, most people wont prefer it.
That said, where are all these additional apartments being built? because Councils dont want to build up where they might be needed that would remove the necessity to commute at all, having access to storage or carparking which in Irish apartments is next to essential are offered in places abroad, where comparisons are made.
Here, we will be told, you cannot have a parking space, which if building upwards, or downwards, shouldnt present the problem it is identified as.


If I wanted to buy an EV, I would have no-where to charge it, that option should be available for someone who potentially wanted to reside near their workplace so they dont have to commute but still wants a car to travel or go home, WE dont have a comprehensive public transport network, so please dont tout that as a possibility.

cgcsb

cnocbui wrote: »

Not as hilarious a greenies being unable to see there is a global trend of people fleeing apartments for as large a house as they can afford and in many cases, out of cities altogether and to regional/rural villages and towns if they can work from home, where houses are more affordable and better value. It is a universal phenomenon in the developed world. Housing markets in OECD countries are on fire.

Apartments are for the poor, those on low incomes, and retirees no longer up for gardening.

Is ther any actual data on this? Global trends are more people living in bigger cities at least up until last year. We don't know what a post pandemic world will be like.

AndrewJRenko

biko wrote: »

The way the anti-motoring industry will try to nab you is by pressing politicians to increase tax on your car, your fuel, your motor tax etc.
They will then claim owning a car is unsustainable because it's so expensive.

What is this "anti motoring industry" and how does it compare to the actual motoring industry that is sponsoring huge amounts of TV, radio and press?

cnocbui

cgcsb wrote: »

What is the anti motoring industry?

Owning a car is expensive but most of the cost is socialised for some reason.

How is it socialised? Ten percent of government revenue comes from motorists in a normal year. 5.9% of the 2021 budget expenditure is on transport, so motorists are not being subsidised, they in fact are doing the subsidising.

cgcsb

cnocbui wrote: »

How is it socialised? Ten percent of government revenue comes from motorists in a normal year. 5.9% of the 2021 budget expenditure is on transport, so motorists are not being subsidised, they in fact are doing the subsidising.

Building the motorway network alone cost €15bn far exceeding motor tax receipts for those years. That's not counting the build and maintenance cost of the rest of the road network. Then we have the indirect costs:

The money that we send out of our economy to countries that manufacture cars

The money we send out of the economy to countries that produce oil

The cost of hospitalizations as a result of Air pollution

The cost of the 200 or so annual deaths on our roads

The cost of congested towns and cities which would otherwise have better access to customers without congested streets

It all adds up

Podge_irl

1874 wrote: »

Until all the problems associated with apartment living are fixed, most people wont prefer it.
That said, where are all these additional apartments being built? because Councils dont want to build up where they might be needed that would remove the necessity to commute at all, having access to storage or carparking which in Irish apartments is next to essential are offered in places abroad, where comparisons are made.
Here, we will be told, you cannot have a parking space, which if building upwards, or downwards, shouldnt present the problem it is identified as.


If I wanted to buy an EV, I would have no-where to charge it, that option should be available for someone who potentially wanted to reside near their workplace so they dont have to commute but still wants a car to travel or go home, WE dont have a comprehensive public transport network, so please dont tout that as a possibility.

I don't know where you've picked up this particular fantasy, but the norm is absolutely not to have significant levels of parking for apartment buildings basically anywhere in the world that I can think of. Irish planning regulations generally require far too many parking spaces for apartment blocks even when it is completely unnecessary.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's hilarious that so many narrow minded people think people dont want to live in apartments

Again, just for you
https://igees.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Housing-Aspirations-and-Preferences-of-Renters.pdf
The mean commute time among respondents was 28 minutes. 59.6% of respondents commuted by car. 53.2% of aspirant owners indicated a preference for the Greater Dublin Area.

Respondents indicated a marked preference for three or four bedroom houses

• Given geographic preferences and the strong inclination toward houses over apartments
The preference for three and four bedroom houses and a willingness to undertake lengthy commutes to attain homeownership has implications for the attainment of compact growth and greater urban residential density. Housing markets, if unconstrained, may disproportionately lean toward development in urban peripheries;

Thelonious Monk

that tells us some people dont want to live in apartments yes. Either way, we can't turn the whole country into a sprawling housing estate.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Respondents indicated a marked preference for three or four bedroom houses

• Given geographic preferences and the strong inclination toward houses over apartments
The preference for three and four bedroom houses and a willingness to undertake lengthy commutes to attain homeownership has implications for the attainment of compact growth and greater urban residential density. Housing markets, if unconstrained, may disproportionately lean toward development in urban peripheries;

Ireland and Irish people have never really been exposed to what modern apartment complexes are like. That's important, because it skews the perception of people. They think of the low-cost badly run apartment blocks that came into Ireland and the UK, thinking of the associated crime and socio-economic issues, rather than considering that apartments can be spacious, well maintained, secure, etc.

The goal for most people is to have a house, because that's the way it's always been. Simple as that. I grew up in a house, bought a house, and after a decade living abroad in various apartments, I'd prefer to live now in a well-built apartment complex. I'm selling my house now, and would like that there were options in Ireland to buy into a proper apartment tower. Alas, there aren't, except these crappy little apartment blocks.

Give people some choice, and you'll find that many people will prefer an apartment to having a house, especially for single people, for whom an apartment complex can provide all manner of communal advantages, in addition to the security that often comes from a properly run block.

mrslancaster

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So do you think we should just keep putting more and more and more cars on the roads? There are over 2 million cars registered in Ireland, where does it stop? It's completely unsustainable to keep building roads and putting more cars out there, I just don't understand why people think we can continue doing things this way.

Compared to other eu countries & the uk, Ireland's registered 2 million cars is miniscule, e.g. registered cars 48m in germany, 39m in uk & italy, 32m in france etc.

cnocbui

cgcsb wrote: »

Is ther any actual data on this? Global trends are more people living in bigger cities at least up until last year. We don't know what a post pandemic world will be like.

2021 Market Outlook2021 Global Real Estate Outlook: Recovery, Re-Pricing and Reflationary Fundamentals...
Shift in living preference to larger formats in suburban US locations

https://www.morganstanley.com/im/publication/insights/articles/article_2021globalrealestateoutlook_us.pdf

Deurbanisation is happening in China:

Reverse migration’ is picking up in China as workers give up on big cities

Millions of Chinese people did not go back to urban areas for work after the coronavirus pandemic last year, official data show.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/28/reverse-migration-is-picking-up-in-china-as-workers-leave-big-cities.html

Australia:

It's official. Australia's capital cities really have been losing people in record numbers during COVID. But will tree changers stay put in the country, or flock back to the big smoke?

ABS data shows Australia's capital cities had a net loss of 11,200 people in the September quarter
That was the largest quarterly net loss on record
The quarter coincided with the end of Australia's first COVID lockdown

Provisional internal migration data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows the nation's capital cities had a net loss of 11,200 people during July, August and September last year.

That was the largest quarterly net loss since records began in 2001.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-02/abs-data-confirms-city-exodus-during-covid/13112868


USA:

For America’s biggest cities, the urban flight has been pronounced.

In New York, effective asking rents are down 8.5% year over year, according to third quarter data from real estate technology and analytics firm RealPage. New York lost 11,705 more renters than it gained over that period, and Manhattan apartment sales cratered by 46% in the third quarter, according to a report from real estate brokerage Douglas Elliman.

https://www.bondbuyer.com/news/as-urban-flight-imperils-large-cities-some-smaller-ones-see-opportunity

Canada:

Canada's Biggest Cities Saw Fastest-Ever Exodus Of Residents, And It Began Before COVID-19
Millennials are looking for breathing room.
Canada’s two largest metro areas have recorded their largest-ever outflow of residents according to new data from Statistics Canada, as a growing number of residents headed for the suburbs or nearby smaller cities.

The Toronto metropolitan area saw a net loss of 50,375 residents to other parts of Ontario between July 2019 and July 2020, while the Montreal area lost a net 24,880 people to other parts of Quebec. In Vancouver, 12,189 more residents moved out to other parts of B.C. than moved in, among the highest numbers ever recorded.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/canada-population-cities_ca_6000a728c5b6ffcab962b468

France:

Why the French are leaving the big cities"

FIGAROVOX/TRIBUNE - With successive lockdowns and the rise of teleworking, many French people have settled in the countryside. The geographer Laurent Chalard deciphers the causes and consequences of this phenomenon.

(Pourquoi les Français quittent les grandes métropoles»

FIGAROVOX/TRIBUNE - Avec les confinements successifs et l'essor du télétravail, de nombreux Français se sont installés à la campagne. Le géographe Laurent Chalard décrypte les causes et les conséquences de ce phénomène.)

https://www.lefigaro.fr/vox/societe/pourquoi-les-francais-quittent-ils-les-grandes-metropoles-20210617

UK:
People don't want flats much in the Uk:

How Covid has changed where we want to live

By Kevin Peachey
Personal finance correspondent, BBC News

Published 19 March

Wanted: a place by the sea to call home, with plenty of space, a garage and a garden.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56359865

The Millenial Urban Exodus: Why Are We Leaving Major Cities For Rural Life?

From San Francisco to London and Tokyo, millennials are leaving major cities for smaller towns and rural areas. So what’s inspiring the move? One writer reflects on her own experiences and looks to others who, like her, are forming an urban exodus.

By Rosa Rankin-Gee
17 July 2020

https://www.vogue.co.uk/arts-and-lifestyle/article/urban-exodus

Thelonious Monk

It's hardly feasible for everyone to live in a one off house. Apartments and lots of them are needed in our towns and cities and for car reliance to be a lot less, whether some people dont want to live in apartments or not. Land is finite.

cnocbui

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

that tells us some people dont want to live in apartments yes. Either way, we can't turn the whole country into a sprawling housing estate.

We don't have the population to do that.

The population of the island is 6m. The average household size is 2.75, so 2,181,818 houselds. If each one was on a .25 hectare block of land in a house, that would need 545,454 hectares, or 5454 km² out of 84,421, so 6.46% of the land area for houses, leaving 93.54% of the land for not-housing.

Thelonious Monk

Populations grow

mrslancaster

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's hardly feasible for everyone to live in a one off house. Apartments and lots of them are needed in our towns and cities and for car reliance to be a lot less, whether some people dont want to live in apartments or not. Land is finite.

we had a popoption of 8.2 million before the famine so I think we have enough space for a few more people & houses without resorting to building endless rows of ugly apartment blocks in our cities & towns.

Topgear on Dave

People who have never lived in an apartment, never want to live in an apartment and will never live in apartments dont want apartments built for others.

That's how I'm reading this thread.

Thelonious Monk

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

People who have never lived in an apartment, never want to live in an apartment and will never live in apartments dont want apartments built for others.

That's how I'm reading this thread.

It's bizarre

Thelonious Monk

mrslancaster wrote: »

we had a popoption of 8.2 million before the famine so I think we have enough space for a few more people & houses without resorting to building endless rows of ugly apartment blocks in out cities & towns.

So we should continue to make sure we are a car reliant society and sprawl further and further?
8.2 million people living mostly off a patch of land in poverty is not comparable to today's situation and the needs of people.

Yellow_Fern

mrslancaster wrote: »

we had a popoption of 8.2 million before the famine so I think we have enough space for a few more people & houses without resorting to building endless rows of ugly apartment blocks in out cities & towns.

8.2 million was the population of the whole island of Ireland! The population of the 26 countries never exceeded 6.5 million. Anyway, this is such a weird statement. Living standards were terrible and hundreds of thousands lived in tiny cramped one-room hovels shared with farm animals. Babies sleeping next to sows and their banbh.

mrslancaster

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

People who have never lived in an apartment, never want to live in an apartment and will never live in apartments dont want apartments built for others.

That's how I'm reading this thread.

Each to their own but there has to be choice and it seems that the only homes being built now are blocks of high rise apartments in our cities. I know apartments are not everybody's choice, even though some people love them & wouldn't want the hassle of upkeep on a house or garden.

Topgear on Dave

Wgere are you living. Theres huge estates of houses getting built around me in Kildare.

Thelonious Monk

mrslancaster wrote: »

Each to their own but there has to be choice and it seems that the only homes being built now are blocks of high rise apartments in our cities. I know apartments are not everybody's choice, even though some people love them & wouldn't want the hassle of upkeep on a house or garden.

Space is limited in cities, you can fit a load of apartments where you might fit 4 houses or something. So people shouldn't have a choice within certain boundaries, we need to build up and more dense. You can always live further out from cities if you want a bigger place, but that comes with drawbacks too.

1874

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's bizarre

IS that what the Greens want? Im environmentally concerned but your opinions sound like extremism, bizzare that the Greens cant tell people to not think independently and live how they want and that is practical and is feasible in society currently?

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So we should continue to make sure we are a car reliant society and sprawl further and further?
8.2 million people living mostly off a patch of land in poverty is not comparable to today's situation and the needs of people.

Where are these high rise complexes that everyone is going to move into? Dont exist, because councils wont approve high rise development.
There is already high pressure on housing and the number of units available.

Your answer is that its peoples faults for not living in high rise apartments that dont exist nor are being built or even have planning approval.


Id say there is not one black or white answer, if there is one it is going to be a mix of existing housing, new developments and mass transport, or at least that would be sensible, but we only have the existing housing and the existing transport network so that results in what options for people to change?None, so the existing scenario will continue.


I think there are better possibilities but blaming people who choose to live in houses which is predominantly the type of accomodation available.
APARTMENTS as we have are not usually suitable places where familys want their children, predominantly characterless, small, issues being space for living and growing, privacy, communal problems, so you can scoff at people who choose otherwise, but that is their right to choose what the feel is the best for them.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Space is limited in cities, you can fit a load of apartments where you might fit 4 houses or something. So people shouldn't have a choice within certain boundaries, we need to build up and more dense. You can always live further out from cities if you want a bigger place, but that comes with drawbacks too.

Take it to the councils and when they start to approve planning and building occurs for somewhere people could realistically live and grow, and the problems of city living have at least some attempt made to resolve them, then people might choose that option.
Wont happen, we could be here in 10 years saying the same thing,
At best more showeboxes, with less space, christ not long before COVID they were trying to get planning to build apartments with communal cooking facilities, basically shared accomodation, hows that for family privacy, zero, none, as for any health concerns. AT least COVID hopefully knocked that idea on the head.



I dont think you have a right to foist your views on people and then act superior and suggest everyone is doing the wrong thing,

Thelonious Monk

1874 wrote: »

I dont think you have a right to foist your views on people and then act superior and suggest everyone is doing the wrong thing,

The whole idea of boards is to give your opinion. Low density living and reliance on cars, in my opinion, is an awful way to construct your society. It's ok that we don't agree on this, and look around you and how Ireland is planned, my opinion is clearly not widely held!
Also why would family be living in communal living developments?!