No more motorways - what ya reckon?

1874

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The whole idea of boards is to give your opinion. Low density living and reliance on cars, in my opinion, is an awful way to construct your society. It's ok that we don't agree on this, and look around you and how Ireland is planned, my opinion is clearly not widely held!
Also why would family be living in communal living developments?!

You are wrong, we dont disagree on this,
I disagree your assertion that people are wrong to independently choose otherwise, mainly motivated by the fact that there are not sufficient numbers, quality or suitability for family living.
The options for family living are currently better catered for living in houses.


Until apartments and higher density living matches or exceeds the quantity, quality and suitability of other options, people wont avail of it, or even be able to avail of it.
Most apartments are characterless shoeboxes.
Not only does it seem the Greens want to coral people into shoeboxes, they dont even want them to have a better quality of life or even limited options, so no car, not even an EV if they want it, how many apartments have sufficient space for a growing family? or storage?? what are costs like in comparison to living in a house? little control over annual costs, and management problems, not getting things done or resolved/difficult to contact.


It shouldnt be that way but it is,



I have no idea what that last line means

Thelonious Monk

You said

planning to build apartments with communal cooking facilities, basically shared accomodation, hows that for family privacy, zero, none

I don't think communal developments were supposed to be for families!
I never mentioned families and what their needs are either, but currently we have a lot of people sharing semi-Ds that would probably be better suited to families. If we built lots of apartments they would not be empty for very long.
I have no idea what the Greens' policies are when it comes to housing either!

AndrewJRenko

cnocbui wrote: »

How is it socialised? Ten percent of government revenue comes from motorists in a normal year. 5.9% of the 2021 budget expenditure is on transport, so motorists are not being subsidised, they in fact are doing the subsidising.

When are motorists going to start paying for all the free storage space they get, particularly on suburban roads?

When are motorists going to start paying for the large parts of the Gardai and Courts service that they consume?

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

that tells us some people dont want to live in apartments yes. Either way, we can't turn the whole country into a sprawling housing estate.

Actually, it tells us that some people don't want to live in the kind of dogbox apartments we generally build in Ireland, with no storage space for a bike or a buggy or a wheelchair, no play space for children, no room to accommodate temporary visitors.

Heraclius

I wouldn't disagree that many apartments lack storage space. I disagree about apartments being characterless though. Surely a space is what you make of it? I could easily say that semi-d land is characterless too. Perhaps different people want different living arrangements?

biko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

When are motorists going to start paying for all the free storage space they get, particularly on suburban roads?

What storage space are you talking about?
Are you saying the roadway is storage space?
Do you drive? Have you been on a bus? In a taxi?

When are motorists going to start paying for the large parts of the Gardai and Courts service that they consume?

None for 99% of us.

Thelonious Monk

biko wrote: »

What storage space are you talking about?
Are you saying the roadway is storage space?

People park and drive all over every footpath in suburban Dublin, for free. If you were to put a box there with your stuff in it the council would soon get rid of it but for some reason you're allowed claim that property to be yours and put your stuff on it if it has an engine and wheels.
If you ever need another room for storage you could just buy an old Ford Transit and park it on the footpath outside your house and keep your stuff there.

1874

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

People park and drive all over every footpath in suburban Dublin, for free. If you were to put a box there with your stuff in it the council would soon get rid of it but for some reason you're allowed claim that property to be yours and put your stuff on it if it has an engine and wheels.
If you ever need another room for storage you could just buy an old Ford Transit and park it on the footpath outside your house and keep your stuff there.

Its not free, you have to pay motor tax to have your car on the road.
If you do the above it can be removed.
Motorists pay tax like other people that dont have cars, except the additional tax in terms of VRT, VAT and motor tax is not ringfenced for motoring related costs, not for bus lanes, not for adding separate cycle lanes that would be safer for cyclists rather than tacking them onto an existing road lane without making them larger, not for CO2 output, like everything else, its just taxed, like anything that is of the day, its a penalty of usage tax.
It doesn't benefit motorists or other road users and we dont know how much it contributes or what even the breakdown of costs are for creating or maintaining the road network for public or private use.

Thelonious Monk

1874 wrote: »

Its not free, you have to pay motor tax to have your car on the road.

It is free if you're not driving it and can't get stopped. There are 2 cars fully mounted on the footpath near my house for at least a year, that have no tax since 2019 according to the discs.

biko

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It is free if you're not driving it and can't get stopped. There are 2 cars fully mounted on the footpath near my house for at least a year, that have no tax since 2019 according to the discs.

There is already provision for that - those cars are breaking the law*.



*the law is displaying valid tax disc.

Thelonious Monk

biko wrote: »

There is already provision for that - those cars are breaking the law*.



*the law is displaying valid tax disc.

So it's ok to claim a piece of public property as your own and put your stuff on it if it has a tax disc? You get a free piece of land with a tax disc?

biko

It's not "public property".
It belongs to the city/council/housing association/state/hospital/someone else, and if they choose to charge for parking then you must pay.
If they choose not to charge for parking then you can stay there "free", possibly indefinitely.

You can also leave your bike chained to a pole in the middle of Shop Street for weeks without paying anything.

Thelonious Monk

biko wrote: »

You can also leave your bike chained to a pole in the middle of Shop Street for weeks without paying anything.

The council usually put tags on them to say they'll be removed by X date, I see it all the time in Dublin anyway. That's also inconsiderate and wrong.

biko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

What is this "anti motoring industry" and how does it compare to the actual motoring industry that is sponsoring huge amounts of TV, radio and press?

The motoring industry don't sponsor, they pay for advertising on for instance TV.
The money from the motor industry helps pay for half of the costs for TV, the rest is paid by you and me whether we like it or not (assuming you have a TV).

1874

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It is free if you're not driving it and can't get stopped. There are 2 cars fully mounted on the footpath near my house for at least a year, that have no tax since 2019 according to the discs.

Well, I wouldnt want that either, and Ive seen it and followed up with the council, why havent you? thats an option. I would not have waited that long, but comparing that to someone who uses their vehicle, pays their motor tax and parks where it is allowable is not a reasonable comparison or complaint, unless they are doing something not allowable

Thelonious Monk

1874 wrote: »

Well, I wouldnt want that either, and Ive seen it and followed up with the council, why havent you? thats an option. I would not have waited that long, but comparing that to someone who uses their vehicle, pays their motor tax and parks where it is allowable is not a reasonable comparison or complaint, unless they are doing something not allowable

I have reported them loads of times, they do nothing.
It's actually illegal to park on footpaths. I just don't think it's fair that you're allowed store a car full of your stuff on a footpath and leave it there for months on end, whether taxed or not. And people give out about cyclists on footpaths when every footpath in this city has cars parking and driving all over them.

1874

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I have reported them loads of times, they do nothing.
It's actually illegal to park on footpaths. I just don't think it's fair that you're allowed store a car full of your stuff on a footpath and leave it there for months on end, whether taxed or not. And people give out about cyclists on footpaths when every footpath in this city has cars parking and driving all over them.

Well thats the fault of individuals who owns/owned that vehicle and the Councils fault for not doing anything about it, just like they dont do anything about approving planning for high rise development.
That is not the fault of other people/motorists who abide by the requirements and need vehicles to fulfill their transport needs as there isnt other viable alternatives.

AndrewJRenko

biko wrote: »

The motoring industry don't sponsor, they pay for advertising on for instance TV.
The money from the motor industry helps pay for half of the costs for TV, the rest is paid by you and me whether we like it or not (assuming you have a TV).

Both the sponsor and the sponsee seem to consider it as sponsorship.

https://vimeo.com/272723019

Now, do you think Darcy and Tubs and Kenny are going to do much about climate change, the pollution coming from the cars sold by their sponsors (even the EV ones), the connection between our tripling of the number the cars and our obesity/CHD/diabetes epidemics?

biko wrote: »

What storage space are you talking about?

I'm talking about all the public space used for storage of private cars. Have you actually been on any suburban street and seen what happens?

biko wrote: »

Are you saying the roadway is storage space?

It really shouldn't be, but large amounts of public road space IS given over to storage of private property. We should do what Japan does, where you have to show that you have your own private space to store your vehicle before you buy it.

biko wrote: »

None for 99% of us.

98% of drivers break urban speed limits, in the last RSA Speed Survey. That's why we're spending €10 million each year on speed camera vans. It's not the 1% of drivers that cause this.

biko wrote: »

Do you drive? Have you been on a bus? In a taxi?

Yes, Yes. Yes.
And shock-horror, I own a car too.

end of the road

FishOnABike wrote: »

Both the N20 and N25 exceed the average annual daily traffic levels for a standard single carriageway road and can have over 1000 vehicles per hour at peak traffic flow making it very difficult, if not positively hazardous for local traffic access to the main road.

Large section of both N20 and N25 routes are operating above their design capacity and are in need of upgrading. While their traffic levels are not at motorway level they should be upgraded to dual carriageway.

Traffic levels are not the only consideration for development of our road network. For the same reason we have public service obligation routes and supports for public transport we need a similar public service obligation for road infrastructure to regions such as the north west.

we already have a public service obligation for road infrastructure.
the problem is there are bigger projects before we can get to the north west and it's needs.
once the likes of cork to limerick and other motor way bits are done the dual carriage way needs will probably start to be sorted out.

Autobahns would be a step towards progress, it's a very small country at 240km+ an hour

Living in the centre of the country would put you within commuting distance of most towns and cities in Ireland. Be better than all the traffic converging towards Dublin.

Housing is cheaper rurally and fast autobahn like roads would turn the Housing market on its head. Be better than cramming everyone into apartments in Dublin

Alot cheaper than high speed rail

the butcher

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Populations grow

Fertility rates stood at 1.6 in 2020. Where is this population growth coming from?

And to the poster who said tyre/brake particles - still waiting on the evidence that this is LARGE.

Thelonious Monk

the butcher wrote: »

Fertility rates stood at 1.6 in 2020. Where is this population growth coming from?

And to the poster who said tyre/brake particles - still waiting on the evidence that this is LARGE.

Aren't we predicted to have an extra million people by 2040 or something? Immigration isn't going to stop any time soon either.

cnocbui

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Aren't we predicted to have an extra million people by 2040 or something? Immigration isn't going to stop any time soon either.

The prediction is a nonsense.

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

The prediction is a nonsense.

"The combined effect of positive net migration and natural increase resulted in an overall increase in the population of 55,900 (1.1%) in the year to April 2020. This compares to an increase of 64,500 for the year to April 2019 and brings the population estimate to 4.98 million in April 2020"

So, assuming that the immigration rate stays steady over the next twenty years, a million added isn't a remote possibility, especially when births from migrants are factored in. In all likelihood, the rates will increase considering the state of third world nations, a shaky world economy, and global warming. Personally, I'd say a million more is a low estimate.

cnocbui

Deleted User wrote: »

"The combined effect of positive net migration and natural increase resulted in an overall increase in the population of 55,900 (1.1%) in the year to April 2020. This compares to an increase of 64,500 for the year to April 2019 and brings the population estimate to 4.98 million in April 2020"

So, assuming that the immigration rate stays steady over the next twenty years, a million added isn't a remote possibility, especially when births from migrants are factored in. In all likelihood, the rates will increase considering the state of third world nations, a shaky world economy, and global warming. Personally, I'd say a million more is a low estimate.

I don't see population growth trending from this:



It's showing a decline, if anything.

The housing crisis is becoming such an acute election issue there is no way any Irish government can't put the brakes on extra EU immigration if it looks like happening. Current home building is inadequate for the current population, let alone an increase. It just isn't going to happen.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

Autobahns would be a step towards progress, it's a very small country at 240km+ an hour

Living in the centre of the country would put you within commuting distance of most towns and cities in Ireland. Be better than all the traffic converging towards Dublin.

Housing is cheaper rurally and fast autobahn like roads would turn the Housing market on its head. Be better than cramming everyone into apartments in Dublin

Alot cheaper than high speed rail

they would also be unaffordable and lets face it, some of the driving in this country is absolutely rubbish.
very unlikely they would be cheaper then high speed rail, probably similar costs, or likely more given good road infrastructure is generally more expensive then rail infrastructure.
but we aren't getting either so the costs don't really matter now.

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

I don't see population growth trending from this:

It's showing a decline, if anything.

With the rest of Europe tightening it's immigration policies, and a shift in public perception against immigration? Where do you think potential migrants will want to come to, when Ireland is one of the few EU countries with a favorable immigration policy, and the best chance for migrants to gain access to Europe, when other EU nations are closed off to them.

The housing crisis is becoming such an acute election issue there is no way any Irish government can't put the brakes on extra EU immigration if it looks like happening. Current home building is inadequate for the current population, let alone an increase. It just isn't going to happen.

What isn't going to happen? You think immigration and births are tied to availability of housing? The market is there, and people will be provided for. They probably will get low standard housing built with shoddy materials, but the basic demands will be met.

The problem for Ireland is not that there isn't accommodation available for everyone. The problem is that supply of the desired quality of housing in the locations that people want to live, aren't available.

Thelonious Monk

Yeah, building lots of houses around an autobahn in Longford wont change the fact that people and business want to be in Dublin

Podge_irl

end of the road wrote: »

they would also be unaffordable and lets face it, some of the driving in this country is absolutely rubbish.
very unlikely they would be cheaper then high speed rail, probably similar costs, or likely more given good road infrastructure is generally more expensive then rail infrastructure.
but we aren't getting either so the costs don't really matter now.

They also do absolutely nothing (except potentially worsen) for congestion inside towns and cities.

RandomViewer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

With the rest of Europe tightening it's immigration policies, and a shift in public perception against immigration? Where do you think potential migrants will want to come to, when Ireland is one of the few EU countries with a favorable immigration policy, and the best chance for migrants to gain access to Europe, when other EU nations are closed off to them.



What isn't going to happen? You think immigration and births are tied to availability of housing? The market is there, and people will be provided for. They probably will get low standard housing built with shoddy materials, but the basic demands will be met.

The problem for Ireland is not that there isn't accommodation available for everyone. The problem is that supply of the desired quality of housing in the locations that people want to live, aren't available.

That might have been the case one time but it's changed, there are areas now where rents would have been reasonable up to a few years ago have nearly doubled, where I live rents are quite low so nobody wants the bother of renting out a house and giving half the rent to Revenue, so you've two extremes

RandomViewer

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yeah, building lots of houses around an autobahn in Longford wont change the fact that people and business want to be in Dublin

Some people want to he in Dublin, I can't stand the place, Last time I was there I didn't bother going near the city centre, just went to Dundrum