No more motorways - what ya reckon?

Heraclius

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's also not the Greens fault that rural Ireland is so car dependent, that would be down to decades of no planning

Exactly. It is almost too late to change that but any effort to do so would lead to immediate cries of it being an attack on rural Ireland even of it helps all the small towns and villages around Ireland.

ianobrien

ineedeuro wrote: »

Our population is not dispersed

Having driven through plenty of rural France and Germany, our population is well dispersed by comparison. It's hard to travel 2km here on a typical country road without seeing a house. Over in France & Germany, it's hard to see a house except for the villages, especially in France.

Thinking about it, even the farmyards can be found in the villages and the fields several km away.

Charles Babbage

Strumms wrote: »

Contractors working on major road projects here sought more than €850 million over agreed tender prices, new figures show too....Data released to The Irish Times relates to 15 road projects with a tender price of more than €40 million, between 2008 and 2018.

Gougers... get effective, efficient, public transport ie trains on the go..and fûck the gougers.

So the contractors on Metro north or Dart underground, or even Bus Connects, won't be seeking extra payments?

magicbastarder

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's also not the Greens fault that rural Ireland is so car dependent, that would be down to decades of no planning

The biggest overhaul of the planning process that had yet happened happened under the greens about ten years ago. And FG rowed back a lot of those changes.

FishOnABike

end of the road wrote: »

5 or 6 times cheaper is just never going to happen, the government wouldn't pay for it for a start, and there does come a ratio by where dispite high amount of patronage the service still isn't able to cover it's costs because the fares are so low but the subsidy couldn't be increased to pay for it.
actually rail in this country is quite cheap as it is, it should be cheaper but enough people need to lobby tds to pay for it.
but 5 or 6 times cheaper is just sadly never going to be.

Which is why rail is used so little and public transport is so unpopular for long journeys.

e.g. If I want a return trip to Dublin I could either drive up and down for about a tank of petrol or drive / get a taxi to the nearest town (€10 each way), bus Eireann to the nearest city with a train station (€18.50return) and train to Dublin (€83 return) plus local transport in Dublin. i.e. over €120 for one person plus the inconvenience and time for all the connections.

To be any way cost comparable for one person, public transport would have to more than half in price and it is still no where near as convenient. If I compare the cost of public transport to driving with a car with four people there's an order of magnitude in the difference in the cost.

If a service is far more expensive and far less convenient then it is not going to get much use.

ineedeuro

FishOnABike wrote: »

Which is why rail is used so little and public transport is so unpopular for long journeys.

e.g. If I want a return trip to Dublin I could either drive up and down for about a tank of petrol or drive / get a taxi to the nearest town (€10 each way), bus Eireann to the nearest city with a train station (€18.50return) and train to Dublin (€83 return) plus local transport in Dublin. i.e. over €120 for one person plus the inconvenience and time for all the connections.

To be any way cost comparable for one person, public transport would have to more than half in price and it is still no where near as convenient. If I compare the cost of public transport to driving with a car with four people there's an order of magnitude in the difference in the cost.

If a service is far more expensive and far less convenient then it is not going to get much use.

Tax, insurance, cost of car, depreciation etc you forgot to includein your cost analysis

FishOnABike

ineedeuro wrote: »

Tax, insurance, cost of car, depreciation etc you forgot to includein your cost analysis

They're all sunk costs. I don't get a refund if I don't use my car on a particular day and I need a car anyway.

If I want to include the costs, tax is about €1.50 per day, insurance about €1.50 per day, repairs + routine maintenance about €2 per day. My car has pretty much reached the tail of the depreciation curve (bangernomics) so I could allow about €1 per day since I bought it, but its current depreciation is as good as zero. So my daily fixed motoring costs are about €5.

If we are to compare like with like the public transport costs should also include the average taxpayer contribution to the rail infrastructure, rolling stock, staff costs, bus fleet and staff costs.

The differential cost on a round trip to Dublin is about €60 if I'm on my own and about €420 if I have three other adults in the car with me. I know which option I'll choose both for cost and for convenience.

Wibbs

ineedeuro wrote: »

Tax, insurance, cost of car, depreciation etc you forgot to includein your cost analysis

I'm lucky and a minority in my case that while tax and insurance are costs I'd prefer to be lower, I get good fuel consumption and my car is worth about triple what I paid for it and going north. However, you missed two parts of the cost analysis; time and convenience(which overlap). I'm also lucky in that I can generally avoid rush hour traffic, so if I do need to move around in urban and suburban areas I save a lot of time not using public transport. Even in rush hour traffic I don't have to stand around waiting for a bus or Luas/Dart, never mind walking to and from one depending on how close or far someone lives or works from one. If I need to go further afield, I can save even more time, plus I can go directly to places that aren't on bus/train routes. We can always earn more money, but time is the one thing none of us can get back and as it stands today a private car saves time. If you're self employed and need to go on site or do deliveries well then public transport/bike/walking is pretty much a non starter save for a tiny minority.

Galwayguy35

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's also not the Greens fault that rural Ireland is so car dependent, that would be down to decades of no planning

Yeah but Ryan has shown numerous times he hasn't a clue about life outside his posh Dublin neighbourhood going by some of the random stuff he has come out with over the years.

The country is car dependent because that's how self respecting adults want to travel. Affordable greener cars is a better way forward than trying to force people onto buses; people will only take so much.

Podge_irl

Wibbs wrote: »

We can always earn more money, but time is the one thing none of us can get back and as it stands today a private car saves time. If you're self employed and need to go on site or do deliveries well then public transport/bike/walking is pretty much a non starter save for a tiny minority.

I will never fully understand this logic. Time spent driving is basically wasted time - you can't (or at least shouldn't) be doing anything else. You can work/relax/send emails/read news/watch tv while on public transport.

end of the road

FishOnABike wrote: »

If we are to compare like with like the public transport costs should also include the average taxpayer contribution to the rail infrastructure, rolling stock, staff costs, bus fleet and staff costs.

generally all such costs are included in all calculations in relation to rail, it's probably the same for busses when it suits the agenda of government.
either way it will be how the government uphold the perception/illusion that spending money on public transport is such a high cost while spending multiples of the cost to facilitate cars and more and more road transport in general is grand.

Wibbs

Podge_irl wrote: »

I will never fully understand this logic. Time spent driving is basically wasted time - you can't (or at least shouldn't) be doing anything else. You can work/relax/send emails/read news/watch tv while on public transport.

It's not wasted time for me. It's time getting from A-B generally as quickly as possible and I find driving relaxing for the most part. I can even listen to the radio or music or whatever(mostly music TBH). I use my time in the car to avoid work, avoid emails, calls, texts etc. My phone goes into airplane mode when I get in and back online when I get out. We're too damned "connected" in many ways today.

AndrewJRenko

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

The country is car dependent because that's how self respecting adults want to travel. Affordable greener cars is a better way forward than trying to force people onto buses; people will only take so much.

A tad exaggerated? Lots of self-respecting adults want and do choose public transport, cycling, walking and other sustainable transport options.

People will only take so much of those who want to move around with an empty couch and armchair all day when we have limited space.

Wibbs wrote: »

If you're self employed and need to go on site or do deliveries well then public transport/bike/walking is pretty much a non starter save for a tiny minority.

Not quite sure what being self-employed or not has to do with anything, but bikes are faster than cars/vans for many city journeys, particularly with ebikes.

Wibbs

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Not quite sure what being self-employed or not has to do with anything, but bikes are faster than cars/vans for many city journeys, particularly with ebikes.

Unless someone is a consultant of some nature that only needs themselves to show up on a job and doesn't need to transport equipment or goods they sell, a bike, e or no is about as much use as chocolate fireguard and a bus isn't much better unless all you need fits in a briefcase or backpack.

Charles Babbage

There are huge sections of Irish life where you cannot participate without transport, the Greens are advocating a degraded life.

Thelonious Monk

Charles Babbage wrote: »

There are huge sections of Irish life where you cannot participate without transport, the Greens are advocating a degraded life.

So do you think we should just keep putting more and more and more cars on the roads? There are over 2 million cars registered in Ireland, where does it stop? It's completely unsustainable to keep building roads and putting more cars out there, I just don't understand why people think we can continue doing things this way.

The J Stands for Jay

Heraclius wrote: »

I think the real world exists in towns and cities too.

One could argue that rural Ireland isn't the real world, with that way of life heavily subsidised by urbanites.

suicide_circus

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So do you think we should just keep putting more and more and more cars on the roads? There are over 2 million cars registered in Ireland, where does it stop? It's completely unsustainable to keep building roads and putting more cars out there, I just don't understand why people think we can continue doing things this way.

Fundamentally our population is too dispersed, so much so that i don't even think rail can solve it.

Podge_irl

Wibbs wrote: »

It's not wasted time for me. It's time getting from A-B generally as quickly as possible and I find driving relaxing for the most part. I can even listen to the radio or music or whatever(mostly music TBH). I use my time in the car to avoid work, avoid emails, calls, texts etc. My phone goes into airplane mode when I get in and back online when I get out. We're too damned "connected" in many ways today.

And you are perfectly able to just cut yourself off when on public transport if you so want also. Wanting to cut yourself off while travelling yet wanting to get there as quickly as humanly possible is an interesting dichotomy though.

Also, no one is advocating 100% of trips need to happen by public transport. But the transport infrastructure investment in Ireland has been, by orders of magnitude, focused on road building for decades. A balancing is perfectly reasonable.

Covidhaveago

If you live and work in rural Ireland you don't need motorways to go about your day to day life.

If your work and social life is primarily based in a large urban area but you've decided to live in a rural location which requires a long commute to get to your employment, then that's on you.

The taxpayer can't be paying for endless new motorways and N road upgrades to facilitate this lifestyle choice. Its a good thing that spending has been reorientated to favour public transport in and around urban areas after decades of being heavily tilted in favour of roads.

ineedeuro

suicide_circus wrote: »

Fundamentally our population is too dispersed, so much so that i don't even think rail can solve it.

Not really, people keep concentrating on someone living in the middle of nowhere and they have to stop driving, this is not true.
If the stop building motorways that is not going to affect that person at all. Teh majority of the population will still be based on cities/towns.
Taking the money used to build motorway and push into train to take cars off the road in Dublin, build the train to Navan etc….that is taking thousands of cars off the road. The odd person living in the countryside will be glad of the fre roads

ineedeuro

Wibbs wrote: »

It's not wasted time for me. It's time getting from A-B generally as quickly as possible and I find driving relaxing for the most part. I can even listen to the radio or music or whatever(mostly music TBH). I use my time in the car to avoid work, avoid emails, calls, texts etc. My phone goes into airplane mode when I get in and back online when I get out. We're too damned "connected" in many ways today.

If I turned off my phone when driving I would be sacked.

Plus the emails etc don’t just go away, they just keeping coming and coming and coming, so at the end of journey when you do turn on your phone they will be waving hello to you

suicide_circus

ineedeuro wrote: »

Not really, people keep concentrating on someone living in the middle of nowhere and they have to stop driving, this is not true.
If the stop building motorways that is not going to affect that person at all. Teh majority of the population will still be based on cities/towns.
Taking the money used to build motorway and push into train to take cars off the road in Dublin, build the train to Navan etc….that is taking thousands of cars off the road. The odd person living in the countryside will be glad of the fre roads

I don't quite buy the "completely stop motorways and put the money into trains" narrative. I think both need to be funded simultaneously. When the rail is in a place to take over, then by all means stop with motorways.

Edit: remember before the pandemic, we were all sh1tting the bed about the 2bn euro Children's Hospital? That is now chump change. The whole way countries use money is changing. It's far less of a limiting factor than it once was.

ineedeuro

suicide_circus wrote: »

I don't quite buy the "completely stop motorways and put the money into trains" narrative. I think both need to be funded simultaneously. When the rail is in a place to take over, then by all means stop with motorways.

We have invested billions in road with nothing in rail, let bring the rail investment up to the same as roads and then see…

We have the majority of roads done now anyway so no need for any more

Wibbs

Podge_irl wrote: »

And you are perfectly able to just cut yourself off when on public transport if you so want also.

Except for others around you and on some routes they can be distracting at best. Certain Dublin city routes can carry too many scumbags and bugger all policing of same. The last time I took a bus across Ireland for my sins was ten years back and there were two loud drunks causing a commotion throughout and the bus ploughed on. Sod that.

Wanting to cut yourself off while travelling yet wanting to get there as quickly as humanly possible is an interesting dichotomy though.

Hardly. I don't race anywhere, I take it easy, but I'm under my own steam at my own pace, leaving and arriving when and where I choose. With a break in the middle from work and life.

Also, no one is advocating 100% of trips need to happen by public transport. But the transport infrastructure investment in Ireland has been, by orders of magnitude, focused on road building for decades. A balancing is perfectly reasonable.

Oh we would agree there. For the most part we have enough main artery roads, but personally I'd generally only use Irish public transport in an emergency. A taxi or hire car or walking would be ahead there tbh. Any time I've had a few drinky poos in Dublin city centre(god, remember them..) I take a taxi there and walk home(nukes any potential hangover for bonus points ).

suicide_circus

ineedeuro wrote: »

We have invested billions in road with nothing in rail, let bring the rail investment up to the same as roads and then see…

We have the majority of roads done now anyway so no need for any more

Fair enough but other than Cork/Limerick i'm not sure how much more motorway we need anyway

ineedeuro

suicide_circus wrote: »

Fair enough but other than Cork/Limerick i'm not sure how much more motorway we need anyway

That’s the point, it’s the only one left…does cork imerick have a direct train line?

Podge_irl

Wibbs wrote: »

Except for others around you and on some routes they can be distracting at best. Certain Dublin city routes can carry too many scumbags and bugger all policing of same. The last time I took a bus across Ireland for my sins was ten years back and there were two loud drunks causing a commotion throughout and the bus ploughed on. Sod that. Hardly. I don't race anywhere, I take it easy, but I'm under my own steam at my own pace, leaving and arriving when and where I choose. With a break in the middle from work and life.

Oh we would agree there. For the most part we have enough main artery roads, but personally I'd generally only use Irish public transport in an emergency. A taxi or hire car or walking would be ahead there tbh. Any time I've had a few drinky poos in Dublin city centre(god, remember them..) I take a taxi there and walk home(nukes any potential hangover for bonus points ).

Fair enough. I would avoid intercity buses like the plague tbh so I'm not going to quibble there. I would far sooner take a train than drive if I am going city to city though. But yes, there is a problem with the intercity services, but the solution to that is going to be more investment.

It always seems unfair that public transport needs to somehow pay for itself or not be subsidised, whereas roads are gigantically subsidised and no one seems to care.

Wibbs

ineedeuro wrote: »

If I turned off my phone when driving I would be sacked.

That's the handy thing about being the boss. I can't be sacked. As I said it is my opinion that we've been corralled into being "always contactable" and again in my humble it's not healthy. For certain jobs it's of course a requirement and positive; couriers, on call technicians etc, but for the average office worker? Nope. And we wonder why so many people feel wrecked and burnt out, even anxious.

Plus the emails etc don’t just go away, they just keeping coming and coming and coming, so at the end of journey when you do turn on your phone they will be waving hello to you

I've arranged my life whereby emails are generally not the main route to reach me, that would be phonecalls and texts. And you know what? Over the years I can count on one hand that had a disagreement with a threshing machine the number of times being contactable in my car made any difference and even then they were minor differences. Being contactable by phone/email etc if like all technology, a positive when it's your servant, not your master. But we digress.