No more motorways - what ya reckon?

ineedeuro

FishOnABike wrote: »

They're all sunk costs. I don't get a refund if I don't use my car on a particular day and I need a car anyway.

If I want to include the costs, tax is about €1.50 per day, insurance about €1.50 per day, repairs + routine maintenance about €2 per day. My car has pretty much reached the tail of the depreciation curve (bangernomics) so I could allow about €1 per day since I bought it, but its current depreciation is as good as zero. So my daily fixed motoring costs are about €5.

If we are to compare like with like the public transport costs should also include the average taxpayer contribution to the rail infrastructure, rolling stock, staff costs, bus fleet and staff costs.

The differential cost on a round trip to Dublin is about €60 if I'm on my own and about €420 if I have three other adults in the car with me. I know which option I'll choose both for cost and for convenience.

You are talking about a one off trip. What needs to happen is remove thousands of cars off the road every day. I have friends in live in Germany and all over Europe, never had a car and never will buy a car because they use public transport every day or cycle. We should be puttin a system in place that in cities car ownership is not required. If someone still wants to blow thousands on a car that’s a decision but not a necessity

Polar101

The article seems like a complete non-story - the motorway network already exists (I'm assuming M20 will still be built, and the bits around Cork too). There's no need to build more after that.

suicide_circus

And another thing, arent a large chunk of the populous going to be WFH now? Shouldn't we be pouring money into turbocharging our internet infrastructure. If i can work for Cyber Corp from my affordable cottage at the bottom of a boreen in Ballycomelately, isnt that progress?

ineedeuro

Wibbs wrote: »

That's the handy thing about being the boss. I can't be sacked. As I said it is my opinion that we've been corralled into being "always contactable" and again in my humble it's not healthy. For certain jobs it's of course a requirement and positive; couriers, on call technicians etc, but for the average office worker? Nope. And we wonder why so many people feel wrecked and burnt out, even anxious.

I've arranged my life whereby emails are generally not the main route to reach me, that would be phonecalls and texts. And you know what? Over the years I can count on one hand that had a disagreement with a threshing machine the number of times being contactable in my car made any difference and even then they were minor differences. Being contactable by phone/email etc if like all technology, a positive when it's your servant, not your master. But we digress.

The thing is technology is people servants…you have a job which means you can spend long parts of the day uncontactable and it doesn’t affect you

Most people don’t, so technology in my case means come 5.30 I’m finished, no back log of email etc. All down. Thank you.

ineedeuro

suicide_circus wrote: »

And another thing, arent a large chunk of the populous going to be WFH now? Shouldn't we be pouring money into turbocharging our internet infrastructure. If i can work for Cyber Corp from my affordable cottage at the bottom of a boreen in Ballycomelately, isnt that progress?

Did we not spend 3 billion on that a few years back?

You are right we should be pushing WFH but I see that more as a way to regenerate old towns/villages. Also help with housing as plenty of houses available in towns around ireland

suicide_circus

ineedeuro wrote: »

Did we not spend 3 billion on that a few years back?

Yeahhh...:pac:

Podge_irl

suicide_circus wrote: »

And another thing, arent a large chunk of the populous going to be WFH now? Shouldn't we be pouring money into turbocharging our internet infrastructure. If i can work for Cyber Corp from my affordable cottage at the bottom of a boreen in Ballycomelately, isnt that progress?

Not really no. Infrastructure should be focused on villages, towns and cities.

Covidhaveago

Covidhaveago wrote: »

If you live and work in rural Ireland you don't need motorways to go about your day to day life.

If your work and social life is primarily based in a large urban area but you've decided to live in a rural location which requires a long commute to get to your employment, then that's on you.

The taxpayer can't be paying for endless new motorways and N road upgrades to facilitate this lifestyle choice. Its a good thing that spending has been reorientated to favour public transport in and around urban areas after decades of being heavily tilted in favour of roads.

Not everyone moves out of urban areas. Believe it or not, people have children in these places and some of them need to find a job in cities. Ah shur i suppose they could just buy one of those numerous cheap urban dwellings and let you get with the pipe dreams outside reality.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So do you think we should just keep putting more and more and more cars on the roads? There are over 2 million cars registered in Ireland, where does it stop? It's completely unsustainable to keep building roads and putting more cars out there, I just don't understand why people think we can continue doing things this way.

The alternative is to cram people into kennels in the sky. People prefer houses than apartments.

With working from home and electric cars the dispersed option is preferable as we retain more freedom.

An alternative viewpoint would be that cars arent the problem - the population growth is. Especially when our own birthrates are dropping.........i.e stop lumping endless amounts of people on top of us which is degrading out quality of life

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

The alternative is to cram people into kennels in the sky. People prefer houses than apartments.

With working from home and electric cars the dispersed option is preferable as we retain more freedom.

An alternative viewpoint would be that cars arent the problem - the population growth is. Especially when our own birthrates are dropping.........i.e stop lumping endless amounts of people on top of us which is degrading out quality of life

Not everyone prefers houses to apartments and many would rather live in close communities where everything is in walking distance, like myself and many others I know. I live in a house and don't have a car, as does my next door neighbour.
The population isn't going to stop growing any time soon which means we will continue to put more and more cars on the road, I think we should probably pursue other avenues of transport for the masses at this stage instead of requiring nearly everyone to drive.

magicbastarder

Podge_irl wrote: »

Not really no. Infrastructure should be focused on villages, towns and cities.

this - and if someone wants to live down a boreen in the middle of nowhere, why should the taxpayer have to subsidise broadband for them?

Wibbs

ineedeuro wrote: »

The thing is technology is people servants…you have a job which means you can spend long parts of the day uncontactable and it doesn’t affect you

Funny enough IT is my game and yet... Think back say 25 years ago. People worked, few enough had emails dinging every few minutes and mobile phones hadn't the tech nor market penetration of today and all those jobs that people did back then from the mundane to the extremely involved and complex still got done. Now emails and tech are certainly an improvement and have brought improvements, but again in my humble we've taken it too far in some ways and have become almost addicted to being in contact all the time. How many times do you see people reaching to check thier phones because of the phantom pocket vibrate. I've done it myself. Now you're lucky enough in that it's limited to 9-5 hours for you, but I know a fair number where they have to be contactable 24/7 for no actually good reason. For a large proportion of the population they are indeed slaves to their tech, while thinking they're the masters.

Personal story alert... I got my first moby back in the 90's. Anyway a few weeks later I went off fishing of a saturday as I was wont to do and realised after setting up my gear I had forgotten my phone. :eek: I had a bit of a "moment" and thought oh my god my parents, friends and girlfriend couldn't contact me nor me them and promptly drove the 50 kms back home to get said mobile. In my waders. Thank the fates I didn't have a car accident. I can just imagine the ambulance guys finding me and asking WT actual F. When I mentioned this to my late dad he was "eh wut?" as he pointed out I had gone off fishing before, often on my own for years before I got my phone and in the weeks leading up to it and had no moments. He was the one who cautioned me against being a servant to such things, that my phone was bloody brilliant and if say I had an emergency on my own halfway up some river it would be a lifesaver so major bonus, but to not lose sight of losing the run of myself either and be mindful of how quickly I came to see it as a necessity, even an addiction of sorts. At the time I thought him a bit adrift, but as the years have passed I think he was onto something.

Now granted Inee I am a little mad so... and maybe it's a debate for another conversation.

Thelonious Monk

magicbastarder wrote: »

this - and if someone wants to live down a boreen in the middle of nowhere, why should the taxpayer have to subsidise broadband for them?

How is it subsidised? Do they not have to pay for the own water and electricity and broadband connection setup initially?

FishOnABike

ineedeuro wrote: »

You are talking about a one off trip. What needs to happen is remove thousands of cars off the road every day. I have friends in live in Germany and all over Europe, never had a car and never will buy a car because they use public transport every day or cycle. We should be puttin a system in place that in cities car ownership is not required. If someone still wants to blow thousands on a car that’s a decision but not a necessity

Working from home where possible could do that for far less cost. I'd still have a car for the days I have to work on site and for personal use but I'd use it a lot less if I could mostly work from home.

magicbastarder

i'm talking about the national broadband plan. which is using the public purse.

FGR

The Atlantic Corridor project between Rosslare and Letterkenny via Waterford/Cork/Limerick/Galway/Sligo was one part of Transport21 that made sense imo.

It's a shame that one of the largest infrastructural plans in history was simply cast aside at the bust and not preserved or progressed through at least the cheaper/earlier stages.

If he had his way the M20 amongst others would never happen and that any bypasses would be S2 type that will be congested again in less than a decade.

Wibbs

ineedeuro wrote: »

Did we not spend 3 billion on that a few years back?

And you've spotted another problem with this and infrastructure. Now I am not one of those self hating Irishman gobsh1tes who denigrates the place for whatever reason, but my god we're not great at infrastructure. Any new transport project like a Luas or Dart, or god forbid underground in one of our cities(or "*cough* hospital) will be 100% guaranteed to be way over budget and way over schedule. Ironically we're pretty good at motorways, though often return to form on other roads.

ineedeuro

Wibbs wrote: »

And you've spotted another problem with this and infrastructure. Now I am not one of those self hating Irishman gobsh1tes who denigrates the place for whatever reason, but my god we're not great at infrastructure. Any new transport project like a Luas or Dart, or god forbid underground in one of our cities(or "*cough* hospital) will be 100% guaranteed to be way over budget and way over schedule. Ironically we're pretty good at motorways, though often return to form on other roads.

We seem incapable of negotiating a fixed price in any of these contracts, once you don’t arrange that in day 1 it’s an open cheque book

Even the national BB they gave all the good connection to Eir and then everyone withdrew, that was the disaster in that contract, another FG f**k up

ineedeuro

Wibbs wrote: »

Funny enough IT is my game and yet... Think back say 25 years ago. People worked, few enough had emails dinging every few minutes and mobile phones hadn't the tech nor market penetration of today and all those jobs that people did back then from the mundane to the extremely involved and complex still got done. Now emails and tech are certainly an improvement and have brought improvements, but again in my humble we've taken it too far in some ways and have become almost addicted to being in contact all the time. How many times do you see people reaching to check thier phones because of the phantom pocket vibrate. I've done it myself. Now you're lucky enough in that it's limited to 9-5 hours for you, but I know a fair number where they have to be contactable 24/7 for no actually good reason. For a large proportion of the population they are indeed slaves to their tech, while thinking they're the masters.

Personal story alert... I got my first moby back in the 90's. Anyway a few weeks later I went off fishing of a saturday as I was wont to do and realised after setting up my gear I had forgotten my phone. :eek: I had a bit of a "moment" and thought oh my god my parents, friends and girlfriend couldn't contact me nor me them and promptly drove the 50 kms back home to get said mobile. In my waders. Thank the fates I didn't have a car accident. I can just imagine the ambulance guys finding me and asking WT actual F. When I mentioned this to my late dad he was "eh wut?" as he pointed out I had gone off fishing before, often on my own for years before I got my phone and in the weeks leading up to it and had no moments. He was the one who cautioned me against being a servant to such things, that my phone was bloody brilliant and if say I had an emergency on my own halfway up some river it would be a lifesaver so major bonus, but to not lose sight of losing the run of myself either and be mindful of how quickly I came to see it as a necessity, even an addiction of sorts. At the time I thought him a bit adrift, but as the years have passed I think he was onto something.

Now granted Inee I am a little mad so... and maybe it's a debate for another conversation.

Back in the day people would contact and expect a delay in a response, unfortunately now if you are not contactable most customer just go to the next supplier. They expect near immediate response and saying “I was driving” they will just look at you.

Leaving a phone on 24/7 is stupidity unless you are on call and paid for it. I must admit I have had customers call me out of hours twice in 10 years, both before 8pm and both serious situations which required a call, loads of apologies from the customer of course which meant I really didn’t mind as it was their job on the line and flexibility was required

Wibbs

It's not just FG though Inee, we've seen a similar litany of feck ups from pretty much every side of the Dail and down the decades.

ineedeuro

Wibbs wrote: »

It's not just FG though Inee, we've seen a similar litany of feck ups from pretty much every side of the Dail and down the decades.

Oh I know but the BB was a serious f**k up as far as I’m concerned

Heraclius

Heraclius wrote: »

Because we don't invest enough in it and our cities are choked with cars?

Should be going high rise in zoned areas close to the city centre. The sprawl of Dublin meaning people need to commute from Newbridge and beyond is absolutely stupid.

Manach

I rarely agree with the Greens, but a tappering back on motorway building and spending on reliable public transport would be a better solution to infrastructure needs. With the coming of Smart Cities the cost-savings of relying on innotive rail/bus links that are right sized for commuter needs is a viable alternative to the car and its impact on the environment.

AndrewJRenko

Wibbs wrote: »

Unless someone is a consultant of some nature that only needs themselves to show up on a job and doesn't need to transport equipment or goods they sell, a bike, e or no is about as much use as chocolate fireguard and a bus isn't much better unless all you need fits in a briefcase or backpack.

Deja moo.

AndrewJRenko

ineedeuro wrote: »

We seem incapable of negotiating a fixed price in any of these contracts, once you don’t arrange that in day 1 it’s an open cheque book

Even the national BB they gave all the good connection to Eir and then everyone withdrew, that was the disaster in that contract, another FG f**k up

With large infrastructure projects, the only fixed price you're going to get is the price of the worst case scenario.

This isn't like fitting out your kitchen.

Northernlily

Northernlily wrote: »

Should be going high rise in zoned areas close to the city centre. The sprawl of Dublin meaning people need to commute from Newbridge and beyond is absolutely stupid.

High density is not going to result is cheap city centre accommodation. Land is too expensive and an ever increasing flood of people into the country means it's a fallacy that there'll be plenty of accommodation. It also pushed everyone to look for accommodation In the same small location.


https://phys.org/news/2019-05-high-density-cities-economically-beneficial-greater.html
"With space at a premium, housing is more expensive and there are increased levels of inequality. The study shows higher skilled workers benefit from higher wages but lower skilled workers, renters and first time buyers struggle with housing costs, making cities less affordable places for them to live."

Charles Babbage

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So do you think we should just keep putting more and more and more cars on the roads? There are over 2 million cars registered in Ireland, where does it stop? It's completely unsustainable to keep building roads and putting more cars out there, I just don't understand why people think we can continue doing things this way.

Most people have cars, they don't need more cars, they don't need bigger cars, when technology improves they will have cars with lower energy requirements. People do not want to drive more, in general, this idea of endless growth is like the Brexiteers promising endless immigration into England, it is a falsehood to facilitate an agenda.

Some roads are already fine, some need to be upgraded. Not everyone needs a motorway, but some more still do.



This kind of thread is full of endless exaggeration and the implication that public transport spending can only come from roads. It can come from any public spending, it can come from more taxes.

Charles Babbage

magicbastarder wrote: »

this - and if someone wants to live down a boreen in the middle of nowhere, why should the taxpayer have to subsidise broadband for them?

If someone wants to live in D1 why should be person living in the boreen, who provided their own house, be expected to give them a free house? We live in a society, there are cross subsidisations everywhere.

Charles Babbage

Charles Babbage wrote: »

If someone wants to live in D1 why should be person living in the boreen, who provided their own house, be expected to give them a free house? We live in a society, there are cross subsidisations everywhere.

Even with very high population density public transport still requires subsidy.

What does the new York subway, the London underground and the French Parisian metro have in common?

They all require subsidies. If anywhere could turn a profit surely one of those could.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/283927-mta-suburban-passengers-get-7-per-ride-subway-riders-a-buck/

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/how-we-work/how-we-are-funded

Cross subsidisation indeed

AndrewJRenko

Charles Babbage wrote: »

If someone wants to live in D1 why should be person living in the boreen, who provided their own house, be expected to give them a free house? We live in a society, there are cross subsidisations everywhere.

The person living in the boreen has avoided participation in the provision of social housing as one-off housing avoids the Part V social housing obligation of property developers, leaving the rest of us to shoulder that burden.

Yet another subsidy to rural dwellers..