Power shower tripping circuit breaker but stays running

iffandonlyif

When turned on, my power shower immediately trips the circuit breaker but remains running. That’s been going on a few weeks.

Recently, my kettle tripped the breaker after being on for a minute or so. That’s something that’s never happened before or since.

I don’t overload sockets and I’ve no unusual electrical appliances, etc.

I’d appreciate anyone’s expertise.

Lenar3556

iffandonlyif wrote: »

When turned on, my power shower immediately trips the circuit breaker but remains running. That’s been going on a few weeks.

Recently, my kettle tripped the breaker after being on for a minute or so. That’s something that’s never happened before or since.

I don’t overload sockets and I’ve no unusual electrical appliances, etc.

I’d appreciate anyone’s expertise.

A breaker that is in the tripped position, but has not opened the circuit is faulty and should be replaced. It’s a pretty unusual mode of failure.
The installation should also be checked for faults otherwise.

The kettle incident may be unrelated.

punisher5112

Post a pic of what's tripping.
The shower should be RCD protected, in most cases a rcbo.

If it's tripping, yet stays working then please stop using it, because if there is an actual fault it will fry you and stay on....

Doolittle51

That sounds like quite a serious and potentially very dangerous issue.
DO NOT use the shower until an electrician has resolved the issue.

I'd be inclined to engage the services of an emergency electrician tbh.

iffandonlyif

Thanks for everyone’s advice and concern.

The switch that’s circled is tripping, which I presume is the master switch.

To be clear, when it trips it affects things like lights, TV, etc, but the shower continues working, indicating to me that it’s on a different circuit but somehow affecting the rest. (Incidentally, the shower has a master switch in the hot press.)

tnegun

Stop using the shower and get an electrician! If the shower isn't protected by that breaker current from the shower is finding its way back to a circuit that is protected by it and tripping the breaker.

punisher5112

Right that is your RCD it should kill your sockets.
Lights would tend to stay on unless piggy backing off socket circuit....
This is dangerous as that unit is what will hopefully stop you been killed.

Stop using the shower now.

punisher5112

Is the top right one tripping if you press test?

Test both of these but I would highly recommend getting the shower on its own rcbo.

iffandonlyif

Thanks again everyone. I’ll take the advice on not showering. I had one this morning, so that should do me till whenever an electrician can come!

You’re right, Punisher, that most lights are unaffected. Just the main and mirror lights in the bathroom. And, yes, the test button on the top right works. As you probably knew, it trips the shower. I’ll mention a separate RCGO.

punisher5112

iffandonlyif wrote: »

Thanks again everyone. I’ll take the advice on not showering. I had one this morning, so that should do me till whenever an electrician can come!

You’re right, Punisher, that most lights are unaffected. Just the main and mirror lights in the bathroom. And, yes, the test button on the top right works. As you probably knew, it trips the shower. I’ll mention a separate RCGO.

Happy to help.... It's always good to ask and if unsure.... No questions are stupid unless in my opinion they're asked multiple times after getting the right answer.... That's not a dig at you by the way.

I hope you get sorted over the next few days, it's scary to think what could happen or go wrong, it's so important.

Sleeper12

I'm always warey of the way power showers might be wired in. Lots of bathroom installation companies & plumber aren't aware that these should be wired in by a REC. Many simply just tap into a socket or even the lights in the attic. I've seen some without a proper earth. I've seen a couple of times where the earth is attached to the copper pipe. Works fine until someone replaces a bit of copper with qualpex and then the shower is no longer earthed.

DublinDilbert

Based on the description and picture of the board, it looks like the shower is on it's own RCBO, but is tripping the RCD for the sockets when running, but the shower continues to run. Possible Earth-Neutral fault on the socket circuit or an appliance

What you could do is try to plug out / switch off all appliances and see if you can identify if it doesn't happen when a specific appliance is turned on. The ones i would turn off first are Washing machine, Dryer, Immersion etc... If you can't narrow it down to a specific appliance this is a job for a REC.

Henry...

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Based on the description and picture of the board, it looks like the shower is on it's own RCBO, but is tripping the RCD for the sockets when running, but the shower continues to run. Possible Earth-Neutral fault on the socket circuit or an appliance

What you could do is try to plug out / switch off all appliances and see if you can identify if it doesn't happen when a specific appliance is turned on. The ones i would turn off first are Washing machine, Dryer, Immersion etc... If you can't narrow it down to a specific appliance this is a job for a REC.

Sounds like a wiring fault

Obviously the rcd and rcbo should operate independently if I'm reading that right

iffandonlyif

Thanks for the continued interest.

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Based on the description and picture of the board, it looks like the shower is on it's own RCBO, but is tripping the RCD for the sockets when running, but the shower continues to run. Possible Earth-Neutral fault on the socket circuit or an appliance.

Yeah, based on the help I've got here, that seems to me to be the case.

Electrician out today diagnosed the problem as being the 'ancient' power shower, and put some temporary arrangement in place. I'm dubious, but I know so little. My father dealt with him and has a track record of giving misleading information or failing to properly oversee work being done.

Anyway, I'm moving out soon, so I'm going to leave it to him to resolve!

meercat

iffandonlyif wrote: »

and put some temporary arrangement in place.

That’s not good enough. Safety is paramount

Did he properly diagnose the problem
Was he a rec
Did he give you a certificate

2011

iffandonlyif wrote: »

Electrician out today diagnosed the problem as being the 'ancient' power shower

That makes no sense to me. If this electrician is correct then the correct protective device should trip i.e. the one for the shower not a different device as this leaves the faulty "ancient" device in circuit (and live).

and put some temporary arrangement in place.

:eek::eek:

I'm dubious, but I know so little.

This is all you need to know:
Water + Mains Electricity = Potentially lethal

My father dealt with him and has a track record of giving misleading information or failing to properly oversee work being done.

Maybe using a mains voltage shower which you know is wired by someone that has a poor track record is not the best idea?

Do yourself a favour, get another electrician ASAP.

iffandonlyif

I don't know for sure but I've been told the solution means the switch will no longer trip. That can surely only mean something dodgy, right? The electrician was provided by the letting agent and they're fairly reputable.

I appreciate all your warnings, but having passed them on to my father, there's nothing else I can really do beyond avoiding using it myself.

tDw6u1bj

Henry... wrote: »

Obviously the rcd and rcbo should operate independently if I'm reading that right

On the same neutral busbar so you still have that leakage path?

High loads tripping the RCD seems like pretty classic N-E fault behaviour, no?

2011

iffandonlyif wrote: »

I don't know for sure but I've been told the solution means the switch will no longer trip.

:eek::eek:
From your description it sounds like this "electrician" has bypassed a protective device making it ineffective.
If this is the case then in the event of something going horribly wrong a critical safety device can not do what it is supposed to do.
This doesn't sound very safe to me...

That can surely only mean something dodgy, right?

It would seem that way.

I appreciate all your warnings, but having passed them on to my father, there's nothing else I can really do beyond avoiding using it myself.

I disagree. Somone could get hurt, or worse.
You could contact Safe Electric and tell them what you have told us.

punisher5112

Shocking stuff to be honest....
It's such a risk. I didn't look back but isn't it 63amp that's tripping.

I'd want that properly investigated.

Bruthal.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Shocking stuff to be honest....
It's such a risk. I didn't look back but isn't it 63amp that's tripping.

I'd want that properly investigated.

The 63A rating is the current carrying capacity of the RCD rather than any relation to its tripping current level.

It does sound like a serious cowboy effort anyway.

When the test button is pressed on the RCD that was tripping, do the sockets go off now I wonder.

Henry...

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

On the same neutral busbar so you still have that leakage path?

High loads tripping the RCD seems like pretty classic N-E fault behaviour, no?

Not quite following everything on the thread

RCDs and Rcbos should operate independently of each other

If they don't it means the distribution board is configured wrongly

tDw6u1bj

Henry... wrote: »

Not quite following everything on the thread

RCDs and Rcbos should operate independently of each other

If they don't it means the distribution board is configured wrongly

I'm no expert or anything, but is there a reason it wouldn't be possible for current from the RCBO to find a route to earth via a neighbouring RCD that has a neutral-earth fault somewhere on it?

tDw6u1bj

punisher5112 wrote: »

Shocking stuff to be honest...

There's no excuse for that pun

Henry...

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

I'm no expert or anything, but is there a reason it wouldn't be possible for current from the RCBO to find a route to earth via a neighbouring RCD that has a neutral-earth fault somewhere on it?

Hmm I dunno if I'm getting this right

You'd have a few parallel paths for fault current

-Main protective conductor

-Earthing conductor

-Fault paths

Would there be enough current through the fault path to cause an additional imbalance tripping the rcd

2011

Henry... wrote: »

Hmm I dunno if I'm getting this right

You'd have a few parallel paths for fault current

-Main protective conductor

-Earthing conductor

-Fault paths

Would there be enough current through the fault path to cause an additional imbalance tripping the rcd

Not quite.

A fault current could be phase to neutral, or phase to earth.
A fault current to earth could be via the circuit CPC and / or other.
"Other" could be any combination of pipework, water, a metal bath, concrete, wet things....

A domestic RCD should trip when there is a difference in between the current in the phase and neutral flowing though it >30mA.

tDw6u1bj

2011 wrote: »

Not quite.

A fault current could be phase to neutral, or phase to earth.
A fault current to earth could be via the circuit CPC and / or other.
"Other" could be any combination of pipework, water, a metal bath, concrete, wet things....

A domestic RCD should trip when there is a difference in between the current in the phase and neutral flowing though it >30mA.

You're saying that neutral to earth leakage doesn't happen?

Henry...

2011 wrote: »

Not quite.

A fault current could be phase to neutral, or phase to earth.
A fault current to earth could be via the circuit CPC and / or other.
"Other" could be any combination of pipework, water, a metal bath, concrete, wet things....

A domestic RCD should trip when there is a difference in between the current in the phase and neutral flowing though it >30mA.

Not sure what your point is

You're mostly confirming what I said

The L-N isn't relevant here

tDw6u1bj

Henry... wrote: »

Would there be enough current through the fault path to cause an additional imbalance tripping the rcd

My understanding is that it's very small, so only causes a rcd trip when a large current is applied to the other circuit (electric shower, immersion etc)

2011

Henry... wrote: »

You're mostly confirming what I said

You said "I dunno if I'm getting this right" then listed what you described as "parallel paths" for fault currents. This consisted of two earth conductors and "fault paths".

Not sure what your point is

As you stated that you were unsure I replied, no offence intended

The L-N isn't relevant here

It’s a possible parallel path, therefore relevant.

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

You're saying that neutral to earth leakage doesn't happen?

No, I did not say that it did not happen. I just did not mention it, my list is not exhaustive. My bad, I forgot to be honest.
I also did not mention that another possible parallel path is through the ground.

Bruthal.

It is definitely possible for a N-E fault on one RCD controlled circuit to cause it to trip from a load on a circuit not controlled by that RCD. It usually is a high loading that causes it, and usually items on the fault circuit also cause tripping.

All current has a common N at the DB and therefore a path to the N-E fault back through the RCD with the fault on it. The path straight out of installation on N is lower impedance but a high load can have the 30ma divert through the RCD to the fault, tripping the RCD. So switching on a single high load appliance can trip the RCD not controlling it, if that RCD has a N-E short.