Civil Service - Post Lockdown - Blended Working?

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118660791#Comment_118660791

1.5 is hardly a big engine and there are many very economical engines of this size available. If you did travel for work you'd likely "know all the tricks" e.g. don't buy a 1.4 diesel if you can get a 1.6 diesel for the same price.

Point taken about the thresholds - but people will manoeuvre themselves into work that maximises their travel based on these. Once they hit the upper threshold where the rate drops, they suddenly stop wanting to drive long distance to short meetings and their focus shifts to 10 hour or overnight subs. AFAIK there is no limit on the number of these and they are obviously per diem.

The point stands - business travel is an abused perk and as a result, resistance to conducting meetings online is likely with disingenuous reasons about them being "less effective" likely. When the real reason is, staff will miss getting away from the office and scoffing free scones and croissants while claiming generous mileage and subs. You can't eat croissants through a screen.

Honestly, I don't know anyone who enjoys doing overnights or does them for the money. The first few times may be a novelty, but after a while it gets old.

gazzer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118661465#Comment_118661465

Totally agree. I don't miss the trip to Dublin Airport after work on a Monday to fly to Brussels, get there at 11pm,straight to bed, up at 7 for a day of meetings, straight to the airport, driving 90 minutes home to get to bed at 1.30am and up at 7.30 next morning to get to the office.

GoldFour4

deleted

BrianD3

Not sure of the relevance of the last few posts - I wasn't talking about foreign travel or the drudgery of airports. An overnight sub of ~140 euro can be claimed if you travel 100 km from your normal place of work. Minus 15 euro if you get your din dins handed to you. A trip from Dublin to Tullamore for a two day conference would be overnight territory. It's not clear to me if two days = one overnight or two.

People are selfish and suit themselves. Two day conference in Tullamore that starts at 10 am, they're all over it. Foreign travel that means being in the airport at 5 am, not so much and they will be maneouvring

There are events, meetings, workshops, working groups happening around the country, most of the time. Well there were, pre pandemic. There will be plenty of people gagging to fire up their 1.6 diesel Golf and get back to this "circuit". Vested interests i.e. hotels will also want this. The pandemic has proven that much of this travel is unnecessary.

Also, this could well tie in to dinosaurs ordering people back to the office. Senior staff don't want to embrace remote working/technology as it may result in questions being raised about the conference/meeting circuit. So junior staff are ordered back to the office, they "hold the fort" and never travel to meetings or conferences as these are hogged by those in power.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118662264#Comment_118662264

It's one overnight + 1 day rate, depending on what time you finish at.

Plus you're not actually paid anything for the hours spent in your hotel in the evening when you could be at home with your family.

Personally, the "profit" to be made on it would not be enough to tempt me to go rushing off to spend 2 days at a conference in Tullamore, or anywhere else for that matter.

I guess this thread really does highlight some of the differences between departments - and the experiences of the people who work in them - which makes it even more obvious why DPER and the Unions trying to agree a civil service wide "one size fits all" policy is taking so long.

I can only speak to the Depts I've worked in, but I do know that the culture and the senior mangement of my current dept is the polar opposite of some described here. Far from ordering people back into offices and being against WFH, they are actively encouraging it, and as much flexibility as possible. 🤷‍♀️

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118662001#Comment_118662001

Its the same for the likes of OECD delegates coming over here for meetings. They fly in the evening before, up early, attend a full day of meetings until about 5 or after, same again the next day if it was a 2 day fact finding mission and straight to the airport after.

TaurenDruid

I admit the first few times I had to attend seminars outside of Dublin. it was a case of "Wooo, quids in!" Then you factor in the time spent, the boredom of a couple of hours each way on the M7 and the M50, the early start and late finish, the awkwardness of making small talk over lunch with people you're unlikely to ever meet again, the paperwork (do you still have to post on your M50 toll receipt and parking receipt?), and then quickly work out it's just not worth it. Or, at least, most people do. I'm reminded of one guy I used to know of based in the midlands, of whom it was said they'd attend the opening of an envelope, as long as it was in Dublin. But he was very much in the minority.

Same with the foreign travel. COVID and the subsequent introduction of Zoom was a revelation for the people condemned to Brussels red-eye flights and an overnight in a chain hotel. While there absolutely are benefits to face-to-face meetings, especially if you're meeting the same people, Brussels/EU travel will never be to the same extent again, now people know it's possible to work as effectively without them.

@TaurenDruid

@TaurenDruid

(do you still have to post on your M50 toll receipt and parking receipt?)

Not where I work. Scanned and sent on digitally. Paperless offices are great ;)

Absolute Zero

Anyone have any updates on the future of remote working? I am back Thursday this week. Need to bring my gear from home into the office to do the same thing I am doing from home but without the comfort of working from my own house.

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118663361#Comment_118663361

are you being asked to return your home office equipment - thats very odd and shortsighted.

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118662264#Comment_118662264

Amen! Hogged completely when its a nice little number. If its a bothersome trip they send the young uns.

Ollie321

Have the unions issued any updates as to how the talks are going? AFAIK the surveys that Depts issued were all surrounding WFH and how many days etc but did any have any mention of Flexi arrangements? I don't think mine did

Potis 2020

Can anybody enlighten me as to the situation re. return to the office in Dept. of Housing, Local Government and Heritage? You can DM me if preferred!

Thanks.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118676831#Comment_118676831

According to the four survey respondents from Dept. of Housing a couple of weeks ago (on page 18 of this thread on desktop), staff were to begin coming in to the office one day a week and this was due to increase to 2 days a week in the near future. Three staff didn't know what was happening with their WFH policy and one said one was being developed for Q2.

SouthWesterly

We're back a day a week next month.

All new equipment at our desks and we can leave the laptops and monitors at home.

Moving to 2 days by end of March.

Absolutely pointless considering they've spent the last 2 years saying productivity is up. Back to a 70km plus round trip for most people in my section.

hardybuck

I don't think we'll see a policy coming out until well into Q2.

Shuffl_in

I see the change/end to the Covid roster system for Gardaí has been postponed amid fear of industrial action, as it proved very popular with it's members. Improved work/life balance etc..

I just don't get why there's absolutely zero resistance in the civil service to the order to return full time to the office.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118679701#Comment_118679701

Me neither. Makes no sense. At least it's not yet universal.

redlad12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118643991#Comment_118643991

People in Dublin should get higher civil and public service salaries than the culchies as the cost of living is considerably higher. Saying everything is for people in Dublin is a joke.

Shuffl_in

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118679820#Comment_118679820

But you'd have to wonder if the lack of universality is at least partly intentional. Those sent back in first had little support from those still working from home etc..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118679701#Comment_118679701

We haven't been ordered return full time to the office though. (Well, my dept hasn't been anyway). Most are doing 1/2 days a week.

I think that's why there appears to be little resistance. Everyone is waiting for the finalised DPER guidelines.

That's when I think the push back will start - and I think it will be more around flexitime, than around number of days in the office.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682639#Comment_118682639

I could completely understand resistance to 5 days a week on-site, but honestly can anyone really be resistant to being asked back 2-3 days on-site? it seems a very reasonable position for all sides. I think the unions even see this. Asking people back full time isn't a runner, but half and half shouldn't be met with resistance imo, it's a reasonable and fair balance.

Burgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682639#Comment_118682639

Does anyone want flexitime back? I certainly don't miss being beholden to the clock.

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118682639#Comment_118682639

Sticky points in discussions will probably be around flexi time - but also around flexi leave. But I also suspect that a couple of senior figures have quite strong views on the hybrid model which will be at odds with the unions.

A lot of people hold their flexi leave very close to their hearts - and sure it's a potential 18 days a year that you can accrue and take off. Many people used to religiously take one Friday off every month or whatever. It'll be messy to work it when people are in and out in a hybrid model.

I can't see a policy coming out before end March. After that each organisation will have to do its own policy.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118683574#Comment_118683574

Do you miss the potential 18 extra days leave? The ability to leave 20 minutes early the odd day so you can get the early bus or train - and a seat? The ability to work late to get something over the line and get something back for it?

Bellie1

I didn't realize flexitime in itself was on the table, I assumed it was the days Flexi that could be worked up. They surely won't get rid of it. With a clocking system that means youd have to clock to the minute each day ?

SomeSayKos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118683574#Comment_118683574

I do. For those of us below AP level it's one of the few perks of the job!

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118683123#Comment_118683123

There's a couple of aspects to this issue.

Firstly there's a big difference between 2 and 3 days. One is mostly at home and the other is mostly in the office. I think the vast majority of people are happy to come back up to 2 days per week (and more if there's a busy period), but certainly in my organisation there is a line in the sand being drawn and it's 3 days in the office minimum and there's to be no discussion about it. Nobody has been told why, and we've never seen stats on how well or poorly we've been performing the last couple of years. So much for evidence informed policy.

However I think a lot of people feel devalued by the process and the lack of trust. We have genuinely great people where I work, many of whom would have had a lot of loyalty towards the organisation, and a lot of the trust has now been eroded unfortunately.

I think a lot of people have taken the hump and are actively looking around. Maybe it's no harm in the long run, but turnover and retention issues are going to suddenly become a big issue over the next 1-2 years.