Civil Service - Post Lockdown - Blended Working?

GoldFour4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001169#Comment_119001169

I get some of those points but you used the term childcare in your post. To me that implies actually minding the children rather than dropping the kids to crèche or school etc.

For the record I agree that the days should be fixed as people do need to have arrangements for dropping kids etc.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001203#Comment_119001203

I was making the point that is the same issue.

Unless the creche is next door (unlikely) you still have to commute to and from it even wfh.

If you are saying people have some massive commute into the office. Well that's a lifestyle balance they made to live far away from work. It's got nothing to do with the job. It's still being reduced from what it was.

As for reactive firefighting and none progressive mind sets. I'm not sure what can be done about that. Transfer to somewhere with a more enlightened management culture. The CS and PS are by habit conservative in nature. Some units are better than others though.

It was pitched to me to come on for meetings. But on the days I've been in I've had no meetings. We've all been there.

Flinty997

I think people should focus on what's been achieved thus far and leverage that going forward, rather than just focus on the negatives.

On the subject of impromptu meetings - I cannot think of a single instance where I have ever had to drop what I was doing and physically attend the office for a meeting with less than 24 hours notice. Or even 48 hours notice.

But even if it did happen now for some reason now, there is Zoom or Teams.

Technology has shown us that someone's physical presence isn't always required. It's worked for two years. There is no (real) reason why it shouldn't continue to do so now.

nhg

From what I heard through the grapevine the Dept of Environment are to trial the 4 day working week & Revenue are to trial the Blended Working to include WFH complete with Flexi Time

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001643#Comment_119001643

If they're not really young kids, then yes, why couldn't you mind your children and still productively WFH? Under 12s legally can't be left unattended. But 9, 10, 11, 12-y-os,? Depends on the kid(s), obviously, but I wouldn't see a problem with them being "minded" by a parent WFH. Kids arrive in from school, are given something to eat, get on with their homework, told if there's anything they need help with then leave that bit until later, then watch TV, play videogames or whatever until 17:30ish. And if necessary a reminder that mammy or daddy has a meeting at 3pm and to stay out of the work area when that's happening.

Pretty much what I used to do as a kid (without the video games!) - I was being "minded" but that didn't mean the responsible adult minding me was in the same room as me the whole time!

Younger kids, or more immature older kids, obviously no, that doesn't apply and you can't look after them and WFH properly, unless there's something like a COVID lockdown when people have no choice.

Flinty997

I guess it depends if your work is such to allow you to be distracted on the regular basis during the day especially during the summer holidays. Or you have kids that are full independent from age 9. That you aren't all in the same room on the same table etc.

Addle

Working from home should not be about facilitating lifestyle choices.

You can be fairly sure on the application form there’ll be a box to tick about childcare being in place.

Asking questions about childcare arrangements could open them up to claims of discrimination on grounds of family status.

Same way you can't ask about kids or childcare arrangements in an interview situation.

Childcare is not mentioned in the Blended Working Policy Document or application form.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119000873#Comment_119000873

This isn't a joke.

If someone has arranged for their kids to have childcare until 5:00 (to tie in with WFH) but "business needs" change and they have to attend on site resulting in them getting home at 6:30...what happens the childcare?

The same applies for any event/responsibility that the employee has. A wishy washy WFH, with no certainty, is of little use to many people.

It would be akin to having a 2 day weekend but on days that were movable at short notice.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119001203#Comment_119001203

Exactly.

But, understandably, those not in this situation don't always grasp the logistics of childcare.

Flinty997

People getting interrupted while on calls is fairly common. Most people will be accommodating. But it's very obvious.

I don't have a problem with people not wanting to be back in the office ever. But my worry is if people making unrealistic demands they'll pull the plug on the whole thing and we'll back in the office 5 days a week.

I know quite a few places that did that for no real reason other than they can. All the effort people put in supporting their employer during lockdown completely forgotten or ignored.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004944#Comment_119004944

Rarely have I been pulled into ad hoc meetings out of my normal hours. It would be very much not the culture of any place I've worked with a union. Indeed working outside your hours would be unusually well. Which is why there is usually a better work life balance in CS/PS.

Tbh its would been very rare to have unplanned meetings in the private sector places I've worked also. It's just not how meetings work. You arrange a time when all attendees are available when setting the schedule.

In the private sector I once had a manager who constantly had ad hoc meetings last minute at the end of the day. But that was done deliberately to cause problems.

Unpaid Parental leave has a gotcha where an employer can force the employee to take it en-masse making it unaffordable to take..

exitstageleft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004457#Comment_119004457

I'd be off the view that the whole point of working from home IS to facilitate lifestyle choices.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005091#Comment_119005091

But it's not the "working outside normal hours issue" that I'm referring to. It's the granting of WFH with caveats.

e.g. you are required to be in the office on Wednesdays only. You make arrangements to facilitate that. Weekly directors meeting is then shifted to Tuesday - staff now required on that day instead. Meanwhile the childcare arrangements are out the window and you have to seek a niche solution, possibly with a different source. Until some other "minor" workplace attendance matter crops up.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005107#Comment_119005107

Within limits for sure. But there has to some boundaries like core hours on flexi time.

I think the idea there will be constant out of hours ad hoc meetings is a bit of red herring.

Or a constantly changing schedule. That's not practical at any level.

But saying you can't ever come into the office because of "childcare" isn't reasonable.

Flexibility works both ways though. As soon as one side, employee or manager becomes inflexible everyone becomes inflexible. Completely changes the atmosphere in a place.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005142#Comment_119005142

So the HSE gets hacked they can't call all hands on deck because their directors are childminding.

I'm just not seeing a constantly changing meeting schedule as very likely. If someone is doing that there's something else going on.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005142#Comment_119005142

There have to be some caveats, and the first "caveat" of working from home is that we have to meet business needs. So there has to be flexibility on both sides. It can't be all one-sided.

When formulating the policy we were advised that "we can't plan for every scenario that could arise and put it into the policy document".

In a situation you describe above, joining in by Zoom or Teams should be a possibility if someone can't physically attend, my dept is currently upgrading facilities in every meeting room to accomodate this.

The bottom line is, a bit of give and take is what will make WFH work.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005107#Comment_119005107

Is it? I be of the opinion it is for all at not just because of lifestyle choices. E.g I someone without kids has the same right and options as someone with kids, same with where you decide to live or how you get to work

I'd be of the opinion that Working From Home is not about lifestyle choices.

It is about Work / Life Balance.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004944#Comment_119004944

It's like zero-hours contracts. They are absolutely **** for everyone - except the employer. Or, well, it turns out they're crap for the employer too, when suddenly they need workers and can't get enough people to apply. Dublin Airport Authority, I'm looking at you...

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004880#Comment_119004880

My private sector employer sees nothing wrong with asking people to confirm that there will not be any children under 14 or dependent adults in your direct are during your working hours. They don't ask for details, just confirmation that you ARE available to work, during working hours.

Anyone who thinks that a 9-12 year old can just entertain themselves in the next room for several hours is dreaming. Sure, they don't need hands on-care. But they do need an adult who is available at a moments notice. And they need eyes-on supervision if they are using an internet-connected device to do homework.

@Flinty997

This is how I see it.

If a parent gets a call while in the office to say their child is running a temperature and must be collected from school / creche, you expect your employer to be flexible and allow you to go, correct?

So a little reciprocal flexibility towards your employer if they do need to call someone into the office on a WFH day, is not unreasonable, in my opinion. It goes both ways!

Parents do need to have back up plan in their mind for their kids - and before anyone jumps down my throat, I am a parent and I have walked in those shoes and understand the logistics.

And while it may not always be possible at short notice, there should be a willingness to at least try and accommodate the employer.

And as @Flinty997 says above, if someone is constantly being asked to attend the office on WFH days, then there is some other issue.

At worst, it could become a self-fulfilling propehcy, and the role - which is what any WFH application will be built and granted on in the first place, and not the person filling the role - could be found unsuitable for WFH.

KaneToad

I think the childcare angle is being widely misinterpreted. Minding children during your working hours shouldn't even be in the discussion. It's not an option. You can't be working and looking after children.

The real childcare angle, linked to WFH, is the ability to structure your day to drop to school/collect from school during lunch to transport to childcare/collect from childcare at 5pm instead of 7pm etc etc...

All these things depend on certainty of availability. A wishy washy WFH negates all this certainty and greatly diminished the usefulness of WFH, from a childcare perspective.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005509#Comment_119005509

Very hard to be definitive about such things. How do you define 'direct area'? What if there is another adult in the house minding the kids? What if the other adults or one of the kids has an emergency?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005545#Comment_119005545

I don't know what more you really expect, than what is on offer. A guarantee that someone WFH will never have to reschedule a WFH day? Thats not going to happen.

All I can tell you is what I was told at a very high level...

The employer is not in the business of involving themselves in either the accommodation or childcare arrangements of their employees, either in the office, or at home.

Thats the bottom line. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005545#Comment_119005545

A difference between 5 and 7 implies a monster commute. Or regular extra hours.

I would assume if either is a regular thing you'll already have to have something in place.

@Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005509#Comment_119005509

What is a "direct area"?

We're not discussing private sector employers here, though I think if someone decided to take that the WRC based on those questions, the employer who asks them could find themselves with a case to answer.

As for 9-12 year olds not being able to be left in another room - you don't have kids, do you, @Mrs OBumble?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005720#Comment_119005720

Of course they can be left it another room.

But the adult who is responsible for them at that moment needs to be immediately available to respond to their needs, and to intervene if required. Not when they've finished this file, or excused themselves from an on-line meeting or whatever. And like I said - if there's a possibility of internet access, it needs to be eyes ON.

direct area was a typo. Should be direct care. Your kids, elders, etc need to be in someone else's care while you are working. Simples.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005746#Comment_119005746

I don't see the huge problem.

If I was to count up the amount of times in a typical day in the office that I am interrupted by or distracted by fellow colleagues (for non-work reasons), I'm sure it would all balance out.

Once of the benefits of WFH for me, personally, is not being interrupted or distracted by work colleagues who just want a chat!