Civil Service - Post Lockdown - Blended Working?

johntune

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548614#Comment_118548614

What Departments are these if you don't mind sharing?

Christ it's hard to believe they can be thinking about 3 days in the office if the job was done properly fully remotely before.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118551763#Comment_118551763

Well, one factor is that the long term effects e.g. 10 years plus aren't really known yet - sort term, career development may not be affected, but long term, things like networking, skill development, informal learning, relationships etc. become a bigger factor

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118551763#Comment_118551763

I think 3 days policy will be eventually across the civil service.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118551922#Comment_118551922

I honestly think all of those can be mitigated against.

Doing my job better from home for two years and I think a lot of my colleagues are the same tbh

johntune

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118551922#Comment_118551922

Simple enough to deal with all that remotely to be fair.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118551992#Comment_118551992

My boss is actively pushing with management for us to stay at home

johntune

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118551977#Comment_118551977

How will they reconcile that with the law allowing each individual to request remote working? They can't put a blanket policy in place. It will be left to each individual business unit.

Sarn

You can still request remote working. If they decide to grant it, it doesn’t have to be 100% WFH, granting one day from home could tick the box. If they can give some justification as to why a hybrid model is required I can’t see the WRC having an issue.

kennethsmyth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531597#Comment_118531597

Absolute bull, you've stated that I "appear to be happy for others to be forced to do that", I never stated nor implied that at all. They are your words not mine. I believe fair play to anyone that has reasonable working hours. The benchmarking etc. that occurred in the early 2000's only went one way - up, this should of been fixed permanently not a sticking plaster that then gets "rectified". Additionally there are practices within the public sector to prevent private professionals moving into the sector - any person applying for a public sector job from the private sector can only start on the lowest increment for that level yet public sector employees can start on higher increment levels within that level.

This is protectionism and will only ensure that the pool of employees in the public sector becomes stale. My own sibling who is a lecturer has said that he sees this already happening in our colleges.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118551977#Comment_118551977

Its not possible to have a one size fits all policy on "x" number of days across the whole civil service because not every department is the same, and the types of work they do are too diverse.

Some are heavily customer facing, whereas others, have practically no customer facing roles. The same blanket policy cannot be applied to both, it just won't work that way.

Whatever the final policy will be, it will be much broader than that.

@kennethsmyth

@kennethsmyth

Additionally there are practices within the public sector to prevent private professionals moving into the sector - any person applying for a public sector job from the private sector can only start on the lowest increment for that level yet public sector employees can start on higher increment levels within that level.

All new entrants to the public service start on the first point of the scale for their grade.

Public sector employees can start on a higher increment level as the points on their payscales can overlap, and someone on the top of the EO scale will be earning more than someone at the start of the HEO scale. Do you think an EO newly promoted to HEO, should take a pay cut and drop back to the first increment of the HEO scale ? Promotion usually means pay increase not decrease!

Shuffl_in

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549957#Comment_118549957

I'm in the Civil Service a few years now and am surprised by how toothless/useless Fórsa are in every aspect.

Given how important blended working/working from home is for the vast majority of their members they should be really pushing it as an option. But nobody expects anything of them. An absolute lame duck.

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552665#Comment_118552665

If that salary level is available to someone already in the public sector, then it should also be available to someone coming from the private sector. Why would someone from the private sector take a pay cut either. The current rule is clearly a disincentive to applicants from the private sector.

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118556744#Comment_118556744

agree fully but is also a disincentive to go to promotion for a lot of people as the previous poster said. Promotion doesnt mean salary increase even for existing staff

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118556707#Comment_118556707

we havent received any update from them or even from my own employer regarding what is happening. Im in education public sector - have forsa sent a communication to any sector?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552602#Comment_118552602

so much wrong here that if it were even an iota on-topic for the thread I'd happily chop it into the little thin pieces it deserves

have you no "moan that the public sector have benefits" thread you'd rather bump- I assure you there are plenty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118556744#Comment_118556744

The last time public sector pay was benchmarked against private sector, there was uproar!

A new entrant is not "taking a paycut". Its their choice if they wish to apply for a public service role or not, and it has always been the case that new entrants start on the first point of their scale.

Existing public servants are not new entrants, they are already employees

Why should a new entrant from the private sector be allowed to leapfrog in pay over someone who has worked their way up through the grades but have not reached the point on the scale that the new private sector entrant thinks they should enter on, because "that's what I was paid in the private sector".

Anyway, this thread is about blended working not pay. If you want to discuss starting pay rates, maybe open another thread.

exitstageleft

I wonder if the CS will consider reworking their office layout now that they plan on integrating remote work with in-office.

For one thing, it would be useful to keep all units in the same room, and divisions close by one another.

It seems entirely pointless bringing teams in on the same day, only for everyone to be in different rooms and offices. It ends up with everyone communicating via email and instant messenger - exactly the same as at home!

I imagine hot-desking might rise in prominence too. It's not fantastic but I'd be happy to take it if I can stay home 3 or 4 days a week. Also, with more staff at home, it might be nice not to sit in an empty room when you are in!

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118558828#Comment_118558828

we already communicate by email and chat when we are in the office - and have online meetings are out desks. We are in the weird in between phase I suppose but I work in a large open plan collaborative space with no offices.

kennethsmyth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118557495#Comment_118557495

Its called best person for the job and this is essentially protectionism by the civil service employees.

kennethsmyth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552665#Comment_118552665

The point is can overlap - not all overlap yet the increment level is kept - its protectionism.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118560987#Comment_118560987

What? No, it isn't. A school-leaver, someone finishing college, whatever, comes in and starts off at the first point on the CO, EO, AO or HEO scales. Someone already an EO and at the top of the scale gets a promotion and rather than losing pay, they move to the next highest point on the HEO scale. That applies at all the lower level grades - it's not until APO level that there's no longer an overlap. Someone with experience from the private sector can choose to go for a competition and come in as an EO, HEO, APO or even higher, in the knowledge they'll start at the first point on the scale. They can decide for themselves if they're worth that pay (and amount of leave, and no more bonuses, but better job protection), or if they'd be better off staying in the private sector. Thousands do it every year.

Ogcio don't want people bringing laptops to work from what I've heard.

The risk of one being left on a bus is too high so they need to sort out office workstations again.

Has anyone in the civil service asked if the public (reminder the people who they are supposed to be serving), views on civil servants WFH? I don't want my tax, financial or personal affairs to be shared around some house share a CO is working in.

Worryingly not one post in this thread considering this view.

TBH, I can't see how the civil service can work from home at all between unmotivated staff, a disruptive and litigious culture which would be a Health and Safety nightmare to contain and the above privacy concerns.

I see Varadkar was smart enough to frame the proposed Rights in the employers favour.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561635#Comment_118561635

you get a vote, use it any way you like.

every time you post on this topic you show yourself up.

I'm frequently embarrassed for you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561683#Comment_118561683

Oh ok, that's a novel way of thinking about things I suppose. Completely ignore the very valid points I raised (and I'm no expert, you can be sure those behind the scenes are also raising them) and use deflection.

You can't see a situation where Bridie the CO upends herself on the laptop cable returning to her a desk with a coffee and her twittering colleagues gathering round encouraging her to sue? Your risk analysis skills is very poor I must say.

c0rk3r

Our place are offering 90% maximum working from home which works out at once every fortnight in the office. The only inflexibility is you wont get to chose which day this is. I imagine the preference for most people would be Mondays or Fridays. On another positive if we need to come in for a week for training this will cover us for ~2 months working from home.

Some may be granted 100% WFH depending on circumstances and operational needs. There is 1 person out of 150 who wants to be in the office full-time and they will need to be accommodated.

WFH has been such a success we are hiring an additional 50 people which means more internal promotions at EO & HEO level.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561635#Comment_118561635

Customer/client focus rarely impinges in WFH discussions, either public or private sector.

I'm sick of having to research stuff for people who don't use the internet, because departments have slashed their public counters.

Absolute Zero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561727#Comment_118561727

That's great to hear. What department are you with?

maneno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561727#Comment_118561727

This is great step, which department if you don’t mind ?

@salonfire

@salonfire

TBH, I can't see how the civil service can work from home at all between unmotivated staff, a disruptive and litigious culture which would be a Health and Safety nightmare to contain and the above privacy concerns.

And yet we've somehow managed it for coming up to two years now. 😉

Of course you can't see it. Because you are completely clueless about how the civil service actually operates.

It's interesting how thought has shifted among civil servants on wfh.

I get to deal with people across the various departments at all grades.

Some had a tough time at the beginning with the isolation but generally the concensus is that it's a good thing and works well.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118562397#Comment_118562397

Oh come on! Are you really going to say there won't ever be cases where the employee trips over a cluttered desk and won't try to sue the Government? What steps are civil servants taking at home to secure data from house mates? GDPR is a real thing you know and not a fairy tale.

Scary that in a thread full of civil servants these potential stumbling blocks are not even mentioned so much as in passing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118562609#Comment_118562609

Oh I am sure there will be. In both public and private sector employments.

What I don't really see is how it is relevant to this discussion, which you keep trying to pull off topic with your inane comments.

By the way, I've dealt with a bank, an insurance company and my house alarm monitoring company all over the phone this week - and all their employees were working from home (says so in the recorded message you get before they transfer the call to the next available staff member).

Maybe I should have hung up and insisted those company employees should all return to office based working before I renewed my home insurance or divulged anything personal. 😏

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118562689#Comment_118562689

Those companies don't have my tax affairs or my PPSN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118562705#Comment_118562705

You sure about that? 😉

But anyway, I'm not going to indulge your inane nonsense any further. I'd rather let the thread get back on topic.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561635#Comment_118561635

JFC. Are you for real?

What "unmotivated staff" would these be? What "disruptive and litigious culture" are you talking about? Can you point to any recent reports of court cases involving public servants suing their employers for (presumably) health and safety breaches at home? And how do those case numbers stack up against private sector employees doing the same?

Civil and public servants have been WFH for two years now. Productivity hasn't dropped! It's actually increased, in many cases. Your financial affairs are already being accessed in someone's house, because bank, insurance, financial advisors and tax consultant staff have all also been WFH these past two years.

Oh - and we've all received training on GDPR and data protection, with a focus on WFH.

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118562705#Comment_118562705

All Rev auditors have, and a lot more besides, and they've had laptops out of offices for years.

They've also got proper security, protocols, internal checks and governance in place.

As with most things, it's for other Depts to follow Revenue and DEASP lead as they're always at the coalface. And they will follow. Most are flying.

These issues have been raised countless times on the WFH thread. Old news.

AP2021

"How could you possibly secure personal data from home" is a fairly hilarious argument for those of us who've been doing it from home for two years now.

It's also precisely the kind of spurious argument that would have been used by managers terrified of change had it not become the only option. Those arguments are gone now.

For those of us dealing with sensitive personal data little changed. Our team already went all digital with such data to avoid any breaches. The procedure for preventing your spouse, kids, or roommates from accessing it is the same as in the office - you access it only when at your computer and lock the computer when you're not at it. It's not like in the office I could have such information lying around on my desk or leave a database open while I wandered away.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563141#Comment_118563141

Oh good. Then you'll be able to tell us how to secure your wireless router. Let's hear it.

Abcdefg1234567

Can you please start a new thread so we can keep this one on topic?

For everyone else actually interested in this thread, it's pretty obvious nothing will change this person's opinion so can we ignore their comments and not get drawn into debate.

Absolute Zero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563502#Comment_118563502

Go make a new thread mate.

An Ri rua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563507#Comment_118563507

The WFH thread has thrashed these issues out at length. The poster might even find a kindred spirit that they can PM their brainfarts to.

James2020App

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561727#Comment_118561727

Thanks for this info. It is unreal to hear it and hopefully may be an example for some other departments to follow. Nothing confirmed in most places yet, but rumours are 40% or 60% WFH at best. 90% would be ideal.

Does it seem as if that is being introduced on a trial basis initially, or?

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563502#Comment_118563502

I tied it down to the leg of my desk with some twine and some cable ties. Ain't nobody going to run away with my router! 🙄

As others have said, if this is your concern, go make your own thread. We've been WFH from two years. So has everyone else. It's not going away.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563930#Comment_118563930

Does it seem as if that is being introduced on a trial basis initially, or?

I'm hoping not. I mean - we've all been doing this for two years? I'm aware of plans/negotiations taking place as early as last summer on what the civil/public service WFH scheme would look like. It's surely time for DPER to just go "Right, get your applications in if you want to continue WFH - here are the blended working options." Ultimately, it's going to come down to POs/Heads of sections as to what will be possible in their particular areas, so hopefully the options are more than "No WFH but you have flexi. Or one day a week at home, but no flexi." That'd be a missed opportunity.

Chris_5339762

Our place is offering 0% WFH.

We had it briefly when COVID started - one day per week then . Then the cyberattack removed it completely so back in the office the following week. The Omicron surge was going to sort it out again so staff would be able to work while isolating, but then Omicron tailed off, so the WFH was quietly dropped as a priority.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118564160#Comment_118564160

Chris are you working for the HSE?

Bellie1

Am public service ICT.Will the same DRER guidance apply to civil and public service? Been following this thread but wondering if also applies to public service .

brownbinman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561357#Comment_118561357

Certainly news to me and I'm in OGCIO

Wouldn't surprise me though. Initial plan for us was 3 in office and 2 at home from end of March. No word on it being brought forward yet

@TaurenDruid

@TaurenDruid

I tied it down to the leg of my desk with some twine and some cable ties. Ain't nobody going to run away with my router! 🙄

Post of the day. 😂 👏