Mica Redress

NIMAN

Blaming the builders and saying 7000 families should sue them is just daft. But it's a common comment by the anti-redress crowd.

They would often blame the families too for employing cowboy builders, despite many of the builders being friends or family.

You can only assume that materials being used to build a home are fit for purpose. That's what regulations are for, and the basis for this entire fight. And the fact that the government have agreed to a redress scheme shows that they know regulations weren't being adhered to and they have to fit it.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980957#Comment_117980957

Very true.

But the warranty is with the provider like most other things.

As said already. Public opinion is key on this. Legal options after the government appear incredibly limited and expensive. And looking for what appears to be an open book redress is incredibly naive.

Tbh lumping your lot in with investment properties and holiday homes versus your single family home seems also short sighted. If it were me, my working group would consist solely of owner occupied houses and sorting our group out because we would be in most need. Additionally id expect a reasonable cap.

That's the most likely and best outcome to all of this .

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117978942#Comment_117978942

Not wanting to get away from the mica issue, but the government probably playing the long game wrt spending on northern infrastructure, as the country will be united in the next 20yrs anyway!

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980957#Comment_117980957

But somehow it's the government's obligation to guarantee the blocks, and the timber and the tiles and windows and doors and bathroom suite and the electric appliances and the list goes on and on.

Now do YOU see where the taxpayer is coming from

SuperBowserWorld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980871#Comment_117980871

Sure that's grand so.

6666 average teacher salary for the next 20 years ? 200,000,000 / 30,000

https://www.jobs.ie/job-talk/teacher-salary/

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981032#Comment_117981032

I do see where the taxpayer is coming from and I'm as pissed off as the next one, I'm not from Donegal or neither do I know anyone affected for that matter.

But what I do know, is that builders are not responsible for mica in blocks, it is down to councils not testing material in quarries, and who are the council answerable to.

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981009#Comment_117981009

Agree when you have people turning up their noses at 350k it doesn't take long before you lose public support.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981147#Comment_117981147

I'm certainly not turning my nose up at it! If that's what it ends up being, I'll hopefully get sorted for that. I just don't have an, "I'm alright Jack" attitude to this. What's okay for me, isn't for a lot of people. I'm in the same situation as they are but they have bigger houses, fair play to them.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980997#Comment_117980997

They haven't agreed to a redress scheme. They've agreed to a grant scheme, because there is a political and social recognition that the problem needs to be addressed.

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981169#Comment_117981169

But do you see why joe public is getting pissed off at having to pay the full cost of some of these houses which could cost up 5/6 or 700k.

Penfailed

Here's a counter claim to the assertion that the houses are above average size. I've suspected as much but had no information to back it up.

Screenshot_20211005-213431_Facebook.jpg

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981281#Comment_117981281

That's a bit of a distortion though and highly selective use of data. The majority of housing in urban and suburban areas is not detached one-off. It's semi-d and terrace. The average house size in the country is 160sqm.

All this chart shows is that McMansion building and unsustainable development is endemic in rural areas.

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981281#Comment_117981281

I know all about big houses, plenty around my own area, and the bigger the house they have, they are the ones with the least money.

reniwren

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981303#Comment_117981303

Only thing I can find on average for area for that year is a statement on the CSO website starting"The average floor area of all dwellings with a BER audit was 111 square metres (see Table 11)."

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981303#Comment_117981303

The fact is that most of Ireland is rural. The vast majority of Donegal is rural. Any chance you could fúck off with the McMansion shíte?

I'm out. I've had enough of this thread. My mental health is suffering enough over the whole mica thing without having to defend myself from close minded tools in here.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981345#Comment_117981345

That's wrong. Just 3 in 10 people in Ireland live rurally in Ireland. https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-urli/urbanandrurallifeinireland2019/introduction/#d.en.211130

The only reason you're out is because you have nothing - you cannot morally defend seeking complete State assistance for rebuilding houses that are significantly larger than the average.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981361#Comment_117981361

Fúck off with your trolling shíte. I meant that most of the surface area of Ireland is rural not that most people live in rural areas. Well done. You got a rise. You're the reason I'm out. Condescending bullshít. I could completely morally defend full redress but you've completely drained me of the will to do so in here. I'll save my energy for Dublin on Friday. Goodnight.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981387#Comment_117981387

You can't. You can't morally defend asking families, many of whom are paying extortionate rent and unable to afford their own home, to chip in at least €2000+interest, to pay for houses far far larger then they could ever dream of even renting, let alone owning.

Demanding that these large houses are rebuilt to the original size (regardless on the actual families need, even if there's just two people now left in the house) just shows the height of contempt for the rest of us that have to pay for this

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981488#Comment_117981488

Would allowing those families keep the €2000 + interest solve their own housing problem?

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980997#Comment_117980997

Well, actually, we sort of get that a person living in a self/family build isn’t going to sue themselves. We’re just stunned at the sight of the Government wanting to hand over €300,000, as if they’re responsible for all materials used in every self build in Ireland.

If you bought a car and it fell apart, would you accept the seller saying that this was because of dodgy steel used in construction and suggest you ask the Minister for Transport to sort you out?

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981112#Comment_117981112

Who is Donegal County Council responsible to? The Donegal people who elect it.

So maybe fund the scheme by levying everyone on the Donegal County Council electoral register.

Parachutes

I’ve still yet to see a convincing argument as to why Joe Soap tax payer should pay for this…

There is nobody else to pay for it.

This will come out of public money either through a grant scheme or HAP + bankruptcies + mortgage defaults + loss of jobs and IT + social welfare.

Pick your poison.

Many families don't have any money to contribute so if they want 100% of the cost to be covered they need to be willing to compromise on some aspects unfortunately especially some of the people whose houses are currently standing on little more than hopes and prayers.

There is a large protest organised for Saturday where I believe the protestors are still asking for their houses to be knocked and rebuilt and for the government to pay 100% of this cost, whatever that ends u being.

If that is not true then someone affected by Mica might explain it to us as the handful of people who frequently give interviews to the media are giving that impression to the rest of the country.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980997#Comment_117980997

The "we pay to rebuild" is the most expensive of those options.

E.g. there could be a "state buys equity in the house of this amount" - nobody ends up being homeless, state doesn't simply throw away €3.2 Bn - and a thing that people aren't considering is that paying money to this creates moral hazard for the next down on their luck person.

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981345#Comment_117981345

You have accused others here of distorting the facts and twisting the narrative. Your only "fact" was a self serving Facebook screenshot of distorted biased and cherry picked information which was quickly debunked with actual CSO information and you cry foul, throw your toys out of the pram and accuse anyone who disagrees with your distorted "facts" as being closed minded fools. You probably don't even get the irony of that. You and your sort are quickly losing public support.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981942#Comment_117981942

It just doesn't sound fair to me that one person loses a chunk of equity while their neighbour retains 100% with the only difference being the quarry their blocks came from. It is a bitter pill to swallow for unaffected taxpayers but I'm on board with paying for this so long as there are measures in place to ensure a €300,000 house doesn't end up costing €500,000. I expect this to be managed poorly and price inflation to be ridiculous so would like to see all stakeholders come together and figure out a way to ensure the construction industry doesn't up their prices significantly overnight.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981913#Comment_117981913

And we know council engineers have said building the outter leaf of the house would be the simplest quickest solution removing the envelope from the impact of weather. If you put external insulation over that it adds to it insulates the building too.

This could be done at a cost of 40 to 70 k for majority of the dwellings. For some the price of a new car. If it was my house is have a credit union loan out and done it already at the first sign of mica cracks. I'd have sourced the blocks elsewhere in Ireland and even had them tested first.

What happens to those who don't have 70k and can't borrow it from the banks or would struggle to pay it back? You are very dismissive of many people's situation @listermint.

The head of Engineers Ireland have said its members won't sign off on outer leaf repairs as there is no evidence to support this. Can you provide some proof that council engineers are willing to sign off on this?

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981112#Comment_117981112

That's not how standards work though. It is the responsibility of the producer to ensure their product meets the required standards. The authorities exist to validate and enforce the standards. It is not their job to apply the standards. That is the producer's obligation.

A relevant analogue is a restaurant. You get served food one day, and the next you're violently ill. An investigation reveals a kitchen that's dangerously unhygienic; equipment not cleaned, rats and cockroaches everywhere, staff not washing hands or wearing appropriate clothing.

Is it the food safety authority's fault that you got sick because they didn't detect the breaches? Or is it the restaurant's fault failing to apply the standards?

There would certainly be a case for the state to answer here if they had inspected these quarries and found nothing wrong. But they are not liable for the failure of the block producers to apply the required standards.