Mica Redress

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118158050#Comment_118158050

The few times the government have tried to regulate self builds, there has been push back from, you guessed it, self builders.

It's not government incompetence that caused this. It's not governments role to quality assure every or indeed any product on the market.

malinheader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118158182#Comment_118158182

Totally wrong. The quarries were let self regulate by the government. The problem is with the blocks from quarries. Blaming self builders is and was not the problem.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118158182#Comment_118158182

It's amazing what people will say to defend the indefensible......are you seriously telling me quarries and building material suppliers so have no regulatory oversight from the government considering the nature of the product they supply ?

Would love to hear you change your tune if your walls were falling down 10 years after your house was constructed.....

I am all right Jack doesn't even begin to cover it.....

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118158339#Comment_118158339

The quarries have licenses and regulations to follow but where they are breached, no liability falls on the state. Do you really think that if the state was responsible, no one would've sued them in the 10 years this is going on?

If my fence gets destroyed by a drunk driver, do I get compensated by the state because they failed to enforce the law? Of course not.

The only read the state will provide assistance here is for humanitarian and political reasons. Not because it has a liability.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118158872#Comment_118158872

The states not paying the assistance here I am and you and your neighbors and your kids too when they start working. Levy's never disappear. This nonsense is another in a long line of them. Blank cheques .

Vestiapx

People that bought houses that were made of crap should get their houses rebuilt before people that didnt buy houses get given houses for free (or very little)

I hav no issue with the government providing builds for people that could be we buy a house but for the sake of the country can we please agree that peoolw that bought houses in good faith should have Thier homes fixed.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118158917#Comment_118158917

Why should people that bought defective houses get preferential treatment over everyone else? If you are on the housing list you get a house, eventually, that is sized to your needs not wants.

This ask includes rebuilding massive houses for the parents of adult children. It's outrageous that this is even entertained, let alone likely to be actioned.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118158883#Comment_118158883

You're absolutely right. Describing it as "The State" gives it a sense of remote otherness, when it's indeed you, me and every other eejit taxpayer will end up funding this huge demand.

ujjjjjjjjj

This is just a continuation of years of state failure to regulate and protect ordinary citizens be it the banking shambles, insurances bailouts, celtic tiger buildings calamities etc etc...

They don't regulate properly and don't enforce and we end up in a mess and the Taxpayer foots the bill.

If you can't see a pattern here I give up.

Gombeen politicians and useless civil servants. This is just another mess of many.

I am staggered anyone is having a problem with helping these families (and I am not one or related to one by the way...).

malinheader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118159083#Comment_118159083

I'm not staggered at all. You will always get the begrudgers who are only scared that people might be getting something for free and they are not. And in this case it's not.

I am not affected by mica but I have plenty of friends who are and it has had a serious affect on them and their families lives.

Me personally, I would rather live in a tent than have some of the begrudgers on here think they are the ones getting the raw deal.

But then again easy for me to say as I am not living a nightmare 24/7 for many years.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118159154#Comment_118159154

Sad state of affairs, thanks for your post. I have done a little bit of research and reading on the problems these families are facing and it is horrendous. Honestly it is just depressing that people are on here begrudgingly finding reasons to moan about resolving this situation. I fear no matter what sum is proposed people will still complain and give out. Yes it is going to cost billions and maybe just maybe the state will learn something from this but recent history suggests otherwise. I suppose we are all punch drunk at this stage, another mess, another scandal.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118158872#Comment_118158872

The report on defective blocks conducted by the Oireachtas itself found that the state had failed on inspections due primarily to lack of resources in this area and allowing self certification to continue with no oversight.

The state failed here.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118159322#Comment_118159322

It remains a fact that the producer is always liable for the quality of their products. Always. No one else. Not the regulator or anyone other than the manufacturer.

It isn't begrudgery either. I personally want to see people helped, but the ask is completely taking the piss tbh. Full rebuilds in all cases, including holiday homes and investment properties, not to mention that these houses are huge too (over half 75% larger than the average home).

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118159355#Comment_118159355

I think it is just a misunderstanding on your part as to how expensive this problem is. Re responsibility yes legally you may be correct re liability but the entire reason we are in this mess is because the legals are the problem with the state failing to correctly enforce regulations and standards just like Priory Hall or a zillion other issues. The state can make laws and standards but it also has to enforce them or its pointless and incompetent.

Facile example being have a law about not stealing but never actively enforcing it, okay we enforce this and you end up in court etc but you will see that the state has a responsibility to actively enforce it by having a police force and courts etc etc.

Or perhaps a more relevant example being having a banking regulator who is meant to ensure Irish banks stick to certain financial rules and regulations but not bothering to enforce them....and then they all go crash...and thr Irish tax payer spends billions.

Or having an insurance regulator who is meant to ensure that insurance companies don't over extend themselves and have adequate funds to pay claims into the future....wonder who that is ?

Or having fire regulations for apartments but not checking whether they are being adhered to and you get Priory Hall.

I could go on and on and on for pages....but I think you get the point.

More utter shambolic incompetence from our politicians and civil service / regulatory bodies.

And every Irish tax payer will have to pony up. That is reality. Deflect all you want.

padraig47

It is claimed that 350k euro will not be enough to rebuild 40% of the houses (on a site already serviced). These house must be massive. What were they valued at for LPT purposes ? Surely the value claimed for LPT should be used as a base figure ? Am I missing something ?

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118160642#Comment_118160642

I don't think you are missing anything, although there will be a scheme advocate along in a second to vaguely say we don't understand something, when they're actually the ones ignoring the obvious. I'd go back to that wonderfully spun headline.

https://donegalnews.com/2021/08/buncrana-familys-heartbreak-as-mica-home-demolished/

As a poster said on another thread, you can't be heartbroken when your house is found to have mica and then heartbroken again when you find you can rebuild the property with 90% support from the Council.

This classic public choice theory. 6,000 people in Donegal want €400,000 and the rest of the country isn't cohesive enough to bat them away.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice#Special_interests

Vestiapx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118160642#Comment_118160642

LPT valuation was from years ago, prices have increased since then.

Vestiapx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118162496#Comment_118162496

Good loser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118159944#Comment_118159944

Well if Mr Musician is correct re legality - and you agree he is in your first paragraph - that is the essence (and the end) of the matter.

The second part of that sentence is a contradiction. There is a world of difference between issuing standards and legal liability for breach of these standards.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118163427#Comment_118163427

Follow your logic on and then we just walk away and leave the people and their crumbled houses and shrug our shoulders and we should have let the banks fails and aib and boi and Anglo deposits all go to the wall, or the quinn insurance claims just fold and leave people high and dry or laugh at the people in Priory Hall and walk away.

State has an obligation to enforce standards and laws and yes it needs to focus on areas that can do damage be that huge sectors such as banking, insurance, construction etc etc, why ? because they are catastrophic when they go wrong so you have to have oversight.

The Irish state has form in gombeen politics and civil servants and state regulatory bodies just not doing their job. Decades of failures to adequately resource local councils has left planning and construction a wild west where builders, developers and suppliers can do what they want with little chance of inspection or repercussion.

But don't worry you will be paying for this mess as every Irish Taxpayer will and that in itself is an admission of state responsibility. We have a pattern of behaviour now embedded in our political and regulatory classes. Don't bother actually enforcing or regulating standards and let industries self regulate. When the inevitable mess appears, lots of hang wringing and report writing and sure just blather it on the taxpayer and move onto the next one. The stupid Taxpayer will always pay.

It is a pattern of behaviour so established now in the way Ireland works it is just the norm. And then you wonder why despite having a busy economy we have a floundering health service, a housing crisis with a desperate shortage of state and low cost housing, a monstrous national debt and we have high levels of taxation. Why ? Because so much money is poured down the drain to cover up the failings of successive Irish governments to do basic government things......this incompetence has far reaching implications.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118163469#Comment_118163469

An unusual take on Irish state and Irish politics for someone who claims in another thread that brexit was a great idea and we are all just too stupid to understand how great it will turn out in 15-20 years time.

Based on that I'll feel free to set your opinion to ignore because it seems constantly in the theme that Ireland is always wrong... Weird! Right ?

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118163427#Comment_118163427

These points around liability vs State generally acting to secure welfare keep coming. I'm not sure mica advocates will ever change their minds, because why would they? But I think its useful to clarify our own thinking.

Regulation can never change the basis for liability. The State can regulate food standards, but cannot test every single chicken in every fridge in every supermarket. And regulation can only be a minimum standard - if your car skids because the tyres barely made it through the NCT, that's still your fault for having poor quality tyres.

The State does have an obligation to uphold welfare. People who put their savings in bank shares lost the lot, but the State still offers financial help to people with no means. Same here. State does have an obligation to these families. But not to fix their existing houses, regardless of cost. It's simply about what's practical. If fixing the existing house is cheaper than finding alternative accommodation, the fix is the option. But the alternative accommodation doesn't have to be a McMansion, it only has to b adequate. As adequate as the Social Assistance pension would be to someone who lost all their savings in the banking collapse.

Bonkers ideas are being canvassed. There's even one mica campaigner whose house is on a flood plain, who seems to want it rebuilt. Like, WTF?

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118160642#Comment_118160642

Yes you are missing something.

The simple fact is that the cost to rebuild a house does not equate to the amount of money you would get for it if you put it up for sale.

So saying people should only be given what they have declared on the LPT doesn't hold I'm afraid.

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118164157#Comment_118164157

Again, you a missing the larger point that if it costs more to rebuild the house than to source alternative accommodation, then it's bonkers for the State to fund the cost of rebuilding the house.

Fine if the individual foots that cost. The State just has to offer something that satisfies the basic housing need.

padraig47

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118162496#Comment_118162496

Not by 200%

padraig47

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118164157#Comment_118164157

That is not what I am saying. In fact value for LPT includes the site, which is serviced and is about half the value. 350k would build a mansion on a serviced site We can’t afford that

malinheader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118164124#Comment_118164124

I think you're problem mainly is jealousy as much as begrugery. You seem to like the word mc mcmansions and there is no way to cure jealousy so no point even trying to argue with you.

ujjjjjjjjj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118163824#Comment_118163824

No issue with you posting and having an opinion on my posts but please don't misquote or misrepresent what I said. It's funny that you don't play the ball so to speak by dealing with what I have posted here and try to kick to touch and paint me as some anti Irish lunatic Brexiteer. I have never claimed Brexit was a great idea and it certainly causes issues for Ireland. I have said that in time there may be some benefits for the UK and that we need to respect their decision. I have also stated that economically issues were to be expected for the UK when leaving a large trading bloc like the EU but we need to look back in 15/20 years time to figure out economically if it was a good or a bad thing economically for the UK. My own view is short term it will negative for the UK economy and this will probably extend further but I have also been surprised in someway as to how little impact Brexit seems to have had on headline figures with the caveat of Covid present of course. Time will tell economically and you then also need to look at other benefits that the UK may accrue from sovereignty and independence from Brussels, if any of course. May be nothing positive at all from Brexit but to not even consider positives is just silly. I know the hardline Brexiteers will have claimed everything will be rosy but anyone with a brain would have foreseen some economic issues certainly in the short term but painted against this you had remainers claiming that the UK would fall apart etc etc. Hyperbole on both sides of course. If you read the forums on here about Brexit it is like listening to a pack of laughing hyenas and the Irish media and government ain't much better. Its good fun don't get me wrong larping at the Brexit mess but it isn't going unnoticed either across the water and all I am concerned about is by being so negative all the time we continue to drive a wedge between Ireland and the UK which could be counter productive for Ireland, considering the huge market and customer base sitting on our doorstep. In essence I think its time to admit we have had our fun now and the more mature and selfish approach is actually to move on, be the big man and see how we can calm tensions and improve relations considering what we have at stake. It is clear there are certain aspects of the EU who are quite happy to let things breakdown to teach the UK a lesson so to speak but Ireland could and can get caught in this crossfire. Diplomatically we are uniquely placed to work with the EU and the UK and curb the worst excesses of the hard-core Brexiteers and the fringes of the EU powerbase who are happy to let's things degenerate.

Look it is all about political reality, Brexit is done, so for me the Irish attitude needs to change to what can we get out of this. Just like I believe we need to call the government out for the utter failure around mica. I know what I have written paints not a pretty picture of the Irish government. The levels of incompetence in recent years don't make pleasant reading but please consider how badly served we have been by our political classes and the failure of regulation and the cost in monetary terms and human terms of in essence poor government.

I want them to be better and the Irish people deserve better. Nothing more than that.

Vestiapx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118164527#Comment_118164527

You think 350 builds a mansion? Therefore you think that 99% of the effected homes will be costing less than 350 to demolish and rebuild so what's the issue. Should the homes that cost more not get back what they had or do you what then to suffer a loss ? If so why?

malinheader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118164809#Comment_118164809

Might take a while for some posters to answer you. Some like to go well back in a posters history of posting trying to find a chance to play one up manship. Hilarious but then again sad actually.