Mica Redress

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249634#Comment_118249634

The way the debate has been run on the site on this issue has been disappointing to say the least tbh.

But yeah, the inclusion of investment and second properties was never a realistic ask. Especially not when there is a genuine housing crisis - the optics would be terrible. Rebuilding empty houses while renters struggle in Dublin?

I had long said it, on this thread and the other (before I too got banned...) That the campaign left itself with no escape route, because 100% "redress" for all was never going to happen for rebuilds. The organisers have made their own dignified climb down impossible.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250062#Comment_118250062

Your examples are the height of stupid.

Not even remotely comparable.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250066#Comment_118250066

The only debate allowed on the Donegal forum seems to be along the lines of "how can we avoid paying a single cent towards this".

Unless you stay in line the moderator will make accusations against you and ban you, its the definition of an echo chamber, its no wonder they are out of touch with how the public feel about this.

I don't think they have any intention of climbing down, they seem to genuinely believe that "the government" owes them a house and are oblivious to the fact that the government doesn't pay for anything, the tax payer does.

Furze99

'Self Certification' was the name of the game here. When you build a house by direct labour, employ or builder or purchase - it's your responsibility to do due diligence and assess whether it's fit for your purpose before you purchase. If you can't do this yourself, you employ a suitably qualified professional. But ultimately the buck stops with the purchaser. As has been repeatedly pointed out, this is the same as buying any other commodity.

People have been burnt here by some despicable people in the local construction industries. They need a bit of help but part of the blame and cost must lie with the house purchasers. And under no circumstances should so called 'pension fund' holiday lets be given a cent, nor non RTB registered dwellings.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250256#Comment_118250256

To be fair, the response to that is yes, but.

The blocks the builders purchased here were certified as being produced to a certain standard. I'm a bit hazy on the detail as it's a while since I looked into it, but the standard states that the blocks must be durable as an overarching catch all, but has particular laboratory tests that also must be satisfied. Mica was not a mineral specifically tested for. Builders bought materials that they had every right to believe were good.

Ordinarily, when a supplier sells a material that is defective, they are responsible for compensating the purchaser. The problem is that the SME with tiny capital created a multibillion euro liability. It appears that their insurance is also inadequate to cover it. That said, it also appears that the protesters have given up chasing the SME for the little money that they do have.

Their argument that the State is liable though is completely faulty however. Where regulations are breached, or even where regulations are defective, the regulator is never liable since they are a third party to a transaction. The reason there is a state assistance programme is for political and humanitarian reasons only.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250140#Comment_118250140

They're the same.

The state regulates charities and companies finances and building standards.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247702#Comment_118247702

I heard one lad on Claire Byrne talking about his 1600 sq ft house being just a small one and how difficult it was going to be for those with 'average' houses of 2600 sq ft. My heart bleeds.

Pussyhands

The state should be taking equity in every home.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250427#Comment_118250427

While this is all true, I still do have to wonder if anyone ever actually checked the certificates....or even asked for them.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250211#Comment_118250211

It's extraordinary what's going down on the Donegal forum re this matter. Person after person making reasonable points, including someone who lived in a house built from these blocks - all being asked not to post again on the thread.

There's something deeply wrong with the moderating of this topic there. It reflects very poorly on the site, which already has a pall overhanging it.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250635#Comment_118250635

There is a long thread in helpdesk on the moderation of that forum. It's quite illuminating and will answer all your questions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058212539/aggressive-modding-in-regional-forums

Anyway, when you drill into the complaints that the posters have with the revised scheme, you can see that they are fairly groundless. One poster over there said it it would cost him an additional 51k so I assume he has a house around 2100sqft. SCSI gives a rebuild cost for basic finish for such a house, if say gutted in a fire of 281k. The grant offers 265k. Ok add in rent and storage of max 20k and that brings it up to 301, however you also need to deduct the salvaged windows, doors, sanitary ware, average kitchen, average wardrobes, average floor coverings and heating system that are also included in the SCSI figure and you start to come close to or below €265k.

This is a great deal for the homeowner. They need to recognise that they are being used by the investors and others who have been excluded to further their own agenda.

doc22

Wait till the scheme starts and the majority only get the outer leaf approved, but want a brand new house.....more moaning

listermint

The Donegal forum running people out of town continues unabated. Several posters today have been run out of town with absolutely reasonable questions and no goading. And it's now a place where non moderators even rule the roost and run people out themselves. There is no moderation in it. Its the wild wild west.

Its not a forum at this point its a Facebook group. And it's a entirely poor representation of boards.ie

Wouldnt have been allowed to get to this point 3 years ago.

As emotive issue as this is you'd expect the moderation of the topic to be on point. But it quite simply isn't.

I heard Doherty again on the radio today threatening people of the nice option and the bad option. He wasn't abundently clear what the bad option entailed in detail. But it was basically do what we want or else.

Similar theme to the forum....

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118252483#Comment_118252483

But, sure, isn't the political system rewarding their approach. Why wouldn't they hold out for more? No-one is saying that, if this is truly the cost of rebuilding those houses, it just shouldn't be done.

The campaigners don't engage with how their housing needs could be met for, say, a relatively modest cost of €200,000 per household, because no-one is presenting that as an alternative. No-one is saying it's not worth spending €420,000 to rehouse one family in Donegal.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118252537#Comment_118252537

And just to add, that since no means or needs test has been applied, that €420k could be for a single person or couple theoretically.

And you're right, there is no real risk for the protesters in holding out for more. The government is never ever going to turn around and say "if you don't think this is good enough, then you get nothing at all". The State is a more mature actor.

The only way this issue gets resolved is if the media start to frame the ask as unreasonable. While they haven't done so to date, I think that may change, as the complaints are examined. Then again, the protesters will likely enter siege mode and determine that any change in narrative from the media is "Dublin media and government" attacking them.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118252611#Comment_118252611

They've already done that have a scan through the comments. Listen to Mr Dohertys interviews. It's the media... Its Dublin... Etc etc etc etc.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Nothing to do with the many genuine cases of houses affected by Mica but I wonder will people who were going to use this issue to upgrade their McMansions with the blank cheque they were campaigning for now drop out when they realise it will cost them?

Or is the value still good for them to get for all intents and purposes a brand new house?

Galwayguy35

There was one of them on the radio when I was on the way home, the arrogance of ths guy was unreal considering the deal they were given.

I'd say whatever bit of support they had outside of Donegal up to yeaterday is gone now, the fact that its ordinary working people who are going to be paying for all of this doesn't seem to register with them at all.

SBourgaize

Why is it so hard for you all to imagine yourselves in our shoes, even just for a moment? Just a small bit of empathy. We bought our houses (mortgaged really), did structural surveys and were told all is well, to find out our homes will crumble in a few years.

If this happened to any one of you, you would be doing the exact thing we're doing. We don't want mansions, we don't want new kitchens, we want the house we're paying for to outlast our mortgage term.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118253489#Comment_118253489

You got a good deal, take it and move on.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118253489#Comment_118253489

my house could burn down tomorrow. Even though properly insured Insurance will no way cover the full rebuild cost etc. AS other posters have alluded to the state offer for works exceeds what anybody else would get. Also the size of the houses. I have no problem with the taxpayer(myself) included funding the building of a modest sized home, and i do see the % percentage of costs covered by the government do cover bigger proportion as the house size/value goes down towards an average sized family home

oh. Can Muffler be threadbanned from this thread ? 'Tis only fair

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118253489#Comment_118253489

What did your house cost?

How much was your initial mortgage?

How much were your rebuild costs according to your insurance cover?

I don't think anyone would have an issue compensating you for these amounts, what are they?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250635#Comment_118250635

i remember poorly moderated forums in the distant past being put into the memory hole too.

SBourgaize

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118253646#Comment_118253646

100k

90k

180k (173k according to scsi)

My home is about 1200sqft, 4 bedroom semi detached.

Based on the sliding scale, I can get a grant of (max) 167k. This doesn't include demolition or removal of demolition, nor foundation if it requires replacement.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118253817#Comment_118253817

thank you. Good luck. IT seems the redress is 13,000euro short. Its still a very good deal

Dr Turk Turkelton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118253817#Comment_118253817

You have a genuine case here and people will want to see you compensated. This is the sort of case that we should be hearing about,a regular person with a regular house.

Problem is though you are getting shouted over by the people looking for a blank cheque for their McMansion to be 100% rebuilt to the latest building standards.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118253817#Comment_118253817

Agree, personally i would have no issue with you receiving 100%

Given you were happy that a 1200 sq ft home met your needs, how do you feel about those demanding full compensation for homes twice that size?

Would it not be fairer for everyone to receive full compensation to build a similar size home to yours rather than lets face it those who chose to outdo the Jones'?

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118252896#Comment_118252896

Oh it's 100% worth spending the extra few bob.

Sure a lot of them have no mortgages at this stage. A lot of people build extensions after 20 year or so anyways. So well worth it to spend a few bob yourself to get a nice bigger newer house.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118253043#Comment_118253043

They're in their own echo chamber at this point. I went against them after I saw tactics of using disabled children in their twitter posts, putting words in their mouths when the poor little kid wouldn't have a clue what's going on.

It's anti Dublin too. Bit like the Healy Raes "ah feck them shower above in Dublin, they don't give a damn about us"