Mica Redress

Shedite27

A lot of the counties affected are border counties, were these bricks used north of the border too? And if so, has there been any response from government there?

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962167#Comment_117962167

Why are you so fixated with water supply? I thought the topic was mica.

is_that_so

Apparently there is a plan putting the cost at potentially over €3bn. There is likely to be a long way to go on this especially if it has knock-on effects on other planned State infrastructure spending.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2021/1001/1250080-mica-redress-cost/

.42.

I still dont understand why it looks like the Government will bear 100% of the cost for the Mica issue.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962249#Comment_117962249

And Donegal still won't return Government TD's at the next election anyway.

Other needed capital projects will be outright cancelled because of this.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961995#Comment_117961995

The insurance company should only be liable is the terms of the insurance policy cover it. Otherwise, why not go after the health insurer? Or travel insurer? If one person got very basic cover which didn't cover this risk, why should the insurer pay? That's changing the rules after the game has been played so that the loser is now the winner.

ednwireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962286#Comment_117962286

Michael Clifford: People suffer because of slipshod regulation of construction (irishexaminer.com)

homebond initially paid out until they realised the size of the problem

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962032#Comment_117962032

Next to zero is correct. The argument is "yes the state/tax payer is not responsible - but they should have had stricter (more expensive) rules in place forcing these companies to do more testing and employing people to check the audits"

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962301#Comment_117962301

Do you have more details on that? What you are suggesting is that it paying out was a discretionary - i.e. not obligatory matter- for them (because if it were an obligation, they obviously couldn't stop). However it sounds like a lot of money to be paying out just to be nice to people.

ednwireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962322#Comment_117962322

no only whats in that article where he says

"Initially, the home insurance group Homebond paid out on claims from homeowners, but discontinued as the extent of the problem became apparent. "

touts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962253#Comment_117962253

It's a long standing Legal tactic. Sue the person with the biggest pockets and they will settle on the steps of the high court to get you to just **** off. That's why "Failure of Regulation" is used to drag in a County Council or in this case the state in so many compo claims. But in this case it seems that the population of Donegal have interpreted that legal advice as a free winning lottery ticket rather than as a way for a handful of genuine people to have their homes repaired.

Between this €3.2 billion estimate and the campaigners going on Morning Ireland yesterday rejecting out of hand a proposed offer of €350k each (plus limitless expenses to cover, rent/hotels, stress/medical bills, legal fees etc) I think the public are firmly turning against the Mica campaigners. Last night I was at football training and all the parents thought it was disgraceful that this amount of taxpayers money was being spent. They have pushed it too far. A month ago the government were the bad guys. Today public opinion is swinging firmly against these massive payouts.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962238#Comment_117962238

I am not - I was answering a point made about IW.

10000maniacs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961668#Comment_117961668

When your construction product is in compliance with the Construction Products Regulation, a Declaration of Performance has to be compiled. By drawing up the Declaration of Performance, the manufacturer takes responsibility for the conformity of the construction product and the declared performances.

Primary responsibility for demonstrating a construction product’s compliance with the requirements of the Construction Products Regulation rests with the manufacturer of the product.

A question to be asked is did the builder buy the blocks without seeing this Declaration of Performance cert? If the answer is yes, then it's not only the block maker who is responsible for the mess.

The government or the taxpayer are not responsible for redress in any way. Legally anyway.

Beggars belief that they are giving away €3.2 Billion of taxpayers money, nearly €800 for every man, woman and child in the country to address something that they are in no way liable for.

Very expensive votes. 😀

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962253#Comment_117962253

Because people wouldn't be in a position to rebuild without their own cash

So a lot would be frozen out

cruizer101

We really need to be able to jail people for declaring that their product satisfies compliance standards when it doesn't, its not good enough that companies can be would up and re-opened with no consequences. If owners and CEO's had a chance of going to jail you would see far less of this.

In regards to the redress, my opinion and the opinion of anyone I've chatted to is they are pushing too hard for 100% redress.

Yes I have sympathy for them but this is going to cost the state billions that it doesn't have. I don't want to see anyone made homeless but an amount that will build a reasonably sized house is all that should be expected.

MBE220d

The Mica issue in the like of Donegal and Mayo is only the tip of the iceberg, expect plenty of more Priory Halls coming down the line, they are only waiting to see how all this plays out.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962634#Comment_117962634

There is a point at which you balance what needs to be done with these houses versus the cost of doing so. I don't think pushing so aggressively for 100% redress does them any favours. With that new report it's now all about the massive headline figure and voters would certainly not be supportive of such a huge sum without some very stringent control over how the money is disbursed.

As I said earlier, I think there is probably a lot more road on this particular theme but the more I learn about it, the clearer it becomes that neither the government nor the public have all the necessary information. I don't believe any government can sign off on something like this without first understanding just how deep that pit is.  

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962638#Comment_117962638

Id like to see you back up these claims.

blanch152

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/1001/1250080-mica-redress-cost/

"The report said that homeowners on the working group advised that the average size of home affected is 2,400sq.ft with "many homes" between 3,000-4,000sq.ft."

Wow, the average size of home is twice the size of a four-bedroomed semi-d.

There is a real issue of equity at play here. We have thousands of people paying high rents who are not able to own their own modest 800 sq. ft. apartment, yet one group thinks that they should have a McMansion up to five times that size built for them free of charge.

10000maniacs

€3.2 billion is only for those 6000 houses in Donegal and Mayo. If other counties start making Mica claims, €3.2 billion will look like loose change when the final bill is calculated.

Also, nobody has explained anywhere with any logic why it is presumed that the state is responsible for any of this.

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962759#Comment_117962759

I won't have to, it's all coming down the track, I'm actually surprised more hasn't come to attention to date, but I suspect the people are waiting to see how this mica redress works out, and also keeping quiet so as not to devalue their property.

I heard Aodhan O Riordan on the Late Debate last night muttering something along the lines that people were coming to him with concerns, so maybe take it up with him if you don't believe me.

The Government wants to be very careful as to the way this plays out.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963000#Comment_117963000

You've made a statement with no basis or facts to back it up. So yeah technically you do have to. You made the comment after all

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963004#Comment_117963004

If the people living in them don't want to publicly say it can see why I should be bothered to.

But let's just say I worked in construction before the last crash so I have a good basis for my claims.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963000#Comment_117963000

You are right. There is Verdemount in Blanchardstown where there was the fire a couple of years ago and concerns remain about the cost of remediating the problems with those apartments and there are real fears that there are many more out there.

Sleepy

The building figures being touted are baffling me here: a 350k build cost is the kind of figure most of us are only used to seeing on Grand Designs or Building the Dream. Surely it should cost far, far lower than that to rebuild a 200sqm home when you're in a position to re-use the existing windows and doors, roof slates, kitchen and bathroom fixtures and fittings etc?

Going a step further, and avoiding the crazy increases in the cost of wood over the past few years, if you're re-building entirely like for like it should even be possible to do the demolition in a way that would allow you to re-use the existing roof structure, stud-walls, flooring joists (and hell even any carpeting or floating floors). I'm guessing the argument against this is that it would be cheaper to buy new than to pay for the labour and storage of the materials? With the price of wood, however, I think it'd be worth doing a cost-benefit analysis on that.

I'd wager that many, if not most, of the homes in question were self-builds and that the homeowners put a lot of their own time and effort into building them in the first place which they're now looking for any assistance scheme to pay someone else to do in the re-build: paying skilled labour rates for jobs that the average person would have no trouble with. With a bit of joined up thinking there could be some real opportunities here for tackling local unemployment (which if memory serves is very high in Donegal, about18% or so I think?) via the creation of additional apprenticeship schemes where the apprentices could serve their time in assisting with the re-building...

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962918#Comment_117962918

The house size/350k cap issue was raised on Prime Time last night, the mica group rep tried to deflect it by saying that the houses in Donegal were "slightly" above average size. Most of my sympathy for these people evaporated at this point.

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963057#Comment_117963057

They are out there alright, I'm just surprised they are not getting attention, but I suspect a lot are waiting to see how this mica compensation works out.

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963083#Comment_117963083

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963083#Comment_117963083

I suspect that if you gave the house owner the cheque for the cost that a builder would charge you to build it, say 350k. then you decided to build it yourself I would say an awful lot of stuff would be reused.

kirk.

It's going to pandemonium in the building trade

kirk.

Whatever they do don't balls it up again with more mica or pyrite or partial renovation

That would be a disaster

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963131#Comment_117963131

Slightly above average size my arse, just take a drive around northern Donegal. Where did they ever get the cash to build the size of many of the gaffs?

The government would want to be careful here. Roll on a few months and we're back to lack of investment into affordable housing in parts of the country where there are chronic shortages and they will pay a very heavy price. Just think what this proposed €3 billion could achieve where it matters, instead of being splattered over the hills of Donegal.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963535#Comment_117963535

I don't know where they get the money either, maybe they are in the building trade or else family members are and give them good rates. And they "might as well" build a huge house as a smaller one because "economies of scale" and so on.

A common scenario would be building a house on Daddy's land with the husband working in building and the wife working in the local hospital, school, council office etc. Or else husband and wife are both public servants and the husband is stalwart of the local GAA club too.

Many people in rural Ireland are both insecure and property obsessed, they need a 4000 square foot house as the neighbour's house is only 3500 sq feet. Meanwhile, both they and the neighbours are living paycheque to paycheque and can barely afford to heat their houses.

So many of these muck mansions about that if someone builds a 1500 sq foot one off house it almost looks out of place.

MBE220d

People seem to forget that you could build one of these mansions for the price of a 3-bed semi in a city a few years ago, it's all about location, location

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962918#Comment_117962918

You aren't comparing like for like. You can't compare an apartment in Dublin with a detached house in Donegal.

Shedite27

I'm fairly conflicted on this one.

If it happened to me, I'd like to think there'd be someone to help me out, rather than my life financially ruined. I don't for a second think the people are to blame for not checking their builders suppliers. Nor do I think the government are "accountable" as one poster kept saying. There's probably someone to blame for it, but realistically, it could have happened to anyone building a house.

But on the flip side, it's a hell of a lot of money, and as others say, that money could sort quite a bit of our housing crisis.

There's a offer on the table, both sides are negotiating at the moment. I'm sure they'll find some common ground. You need to cap the payout somewhere.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963131#Comment_117963131

Land is cheap in Donegal which means people could afford to build a slightly bigger than average house.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963986#Comment_117963986

Well, yes, I can compare. You may not like the comparison but I can compare.

You do realise that in other countries, there would be an offer of social housing, and pretty much nothing else. For the taxpayer, the better option may well be to build a few estates of three-bed semis in certain villages and offer them to those affected.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963535#Comment_117963535

There are chronic housing shortages in Donegal currently. Would you rather another 5,000 families were left homeless?

10000maniacs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963366#Comment_117963366

Money for old rope with those guys.

I am writing a book.

A Thousand More Novel Ways to Screw Money from the Irish People.

Volume 2. (Post Celtic Tiger edition)

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964000#Comment_117964000

...and what happens to all the estates full of mica houses? What happens to all the social houses that were built with mica blocks? What happens to all the one off houses crumbling in the countryside? Just let them fall?

A few estates? For 5,000 families? That's more than a few estates worth.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964035#Comment_117964035

It is still much cheaper for the taxpayer.

The one-off houses should never have been allowed anyway, and removing that blight from the countryside would be a good thing.

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964121#Comment_117964121

What does it cost the taxpayer to house generations of the same families in council houses in prime city locations every year? handing out A rating houses to people who have never done a days work in their lives costing over 500k a pop like confetti.

I'm as pissed off as the next person with all this, but a least with these people from Donegal and Mayo they got of their holes and build or bought their own houses from themself and their families. but it looks likes anyone that tries to do the right thing in life often makes me wonder why bother.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964274#Comment_117964274

Sorry, maybe you misunderstood, but if I were the State, I would offer to rehouse those affected in brand new estate in the many nearby towns and villages and hand ownership over to them. In return, the State could take ownership of the sites on which the one-of houses were built. A fair deal for everyone.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964285#Comment_117964285

What would the state do with all the sites of one off houses? They would be suitable for nothing else other than for new houses.

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964285#Comment_117964285

Why should they move into estates when they lived in the country all their lives.

Seen that you like the idea of moving people why not move everyone not working out of the cities and let the people working there buy up these council houses. Surely that is a better idea, no.

In this case, the State had an option to recoup the money well into the future with a levy on concrete products or new builds if it wanted. So not comparable to other capital spend either.

We are paying for insurance levies from the 80s. And there's a banking levy in place.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964285#Comment_117964285

Ridiculous suggestion...but you are entitled to put it forward.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964326#Comment_117964326

I am not forcing them, but if they need to be housed, it doesn't have to be in the house of their choice. After all, Margaret Cash et al have been hammered on here for wanting a four-bed semi with a garden big enough for a trampoline.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964708#Comment_117964708

Not equivalent. The mica affected have paid for their houses and will continue paying off their mortgage. They are not looking for anything free. They are looking for full compensation for being sold a defective product.

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964708#Comment_117964708

Comparing Margaret Cash to these families is laughable. like caulk and cheese.