Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

FlubberJones

seamus wrote: »

The reopening of indoor dining last Summer, led directly to the surge in cases that required us to re-impose restrictions again in early October.

So, we would all agree that it would be foolish to just reopen indoor dining again in exactly the same way, because you'll just get the same results. And we're starting from a case load that's 10 times higher than it was last year.

In effect you're asking, "Why aren't we making the same mistakes we made last year?"

There were no vaccines last year, we're not comparing like for like

Working class heroes

seamus wrote: »

The reopening of indoor dining last Summer, led directly to the surge in cases that required us to re-impose restrictions again in early October.

So, we would all agree that it would be foolish to just reopen indoor dining again in exactly the same way, because you'll just get the same results. And we're starting from a case load that's 10 times higher than it was last year.

In effect you're asking, "Why aren't we making the same mistakes we made last year?"

What an extremely lob sided view.
It's not the same situation. I wont go into why its not as it's been done to death here, as I'm sure you are very much aware....

Snooker Loopy

Fann Linn wrote: »

Because a few clowns have them hanging out of rear view mirrors?

This was the same lad who stood over the cervical smear scandal, said there could be 700k cases by September without having all the data analysed and went on a rant over some people in Sth. William Street and a few weeks later we've still no major contagion figures from.

Forgive me if I don't share the same confidence in him as you do.

The same people who are demanding opening up now are the same people who demanded opening up last summer, last autumn, and last Christmas, and have been ranting ever since.

The let it rip merchants.

Forgive me if I don't have the same confidence in them as you do.

Hurrache

Fann Linn wrote: »

Because a few clowns have them hanging out of rear view mirrors?

No, because there's many clowns who haven't a clue how to wear them effectively.

bucketybuck

Snooker Loopy wrote: »

Ireland as a society cannot play when it is injured. Returning to play before you're ready will likely mean a further worse injury lay off.

Ireland is more like a Mezut Ozil, there is always some pissy little excuse not to train or play.

Stormyteacup

seamus wrote: »

The reopening of indoor dining last Summer, led directly to the surge in cases that required us to re-impose restrictions again in early October.

So, we would all agree that it would be foolish to just reopen indoor dining again in exactly the same way, because you'll just get the same results. And we're starting from a case load that's 10 times higher than it was last year.

In effect you're asking, "Why aren't we making the same mistakes we made last year?"

But this above is something I really can’t understand people getting behind. Cases were seeding through last Summer, as they were everywhere in Europe. And restrictions were imposed in Autumn, in various forms, in most EU countries as a wave began to surge. The timeline of the wave was influenced by the measures taken by different governments, but it followed a fairly similar pattern across Europe, and was ultimately unstoppable unless a country was operating a zero-covid policy.

So you’re advocating for our ridiculously costly and damaging restrictions between waves, while the majority of other countries get on with things as best they can ahead of another possible surge.

Do you really believe if another surge is coming it will be prevented by not allowing controlled indoor dining?? Public transport, private indoor gatherings, hotels, schools and colleges all open - but no, it’s keeping indoor dining closed that will hold this virus at bay?

Snooker Loopy

bucketybuck wrote: »

Ireland is more like a Mezut Ozil, there is always some pissy little excuse not to train or play.

The fact that you treat an ongoing pandemic that has killed at least 4 million people, and in reality almost certainly several more million, as "a pissy little excuse", does not demonstrate any sort of serious consideration of issues, it demonstrates the opposite.

batman_oh

Stormyteacup wrote: »

But this above is something I really can’t understand people getting behind. Cases were seeding through last Summer, as they were everywhere in Europe. And restrictions were imposed in Autumn, in various forms, in most EU countries as a wave began to surge. The timeline of the wave was influenced by the measures taken by different governments, but it followed a fairly similar pattern across Europe, and was ultimately unstoppable unless a country was operating a zero-covid policy.

So you’re advocating for our ridiculously costly and damaging restrictions between waves, while the majority of other countries get on with things as best they can ahead of another possible surge.

Do you really believe if another surge is coming it will be prevented by not allowing controlled indoor dining?? Public transport, private indoor gatherings, hotels, schools and colleges all open - but no, it’s keeping indoor dining closed that will hold this virus at bay?

Hotel bars and restaurants don't spread the virus. Only non hotel bars and restaurants do. Follow the science

Snooker Loopy

Stormyteacup wrote: »

But this above is something I really can’t understand people getting behind. Cases were seeding through last Summer, as they were everywhere in Europe. And restrictions were imposed in Autumn, in various forms, in most EU countries as a wave began to surge. The timeline of the wave was influenced by the measures taken by different governments, but it followed a fairly similar pattern across Europe, and was ultimately unstoppable unless a country was operating a zero-covid policy.

So you’re advocating for our ridiculously costly and damaging restrictions between waves, while the majority of other countries get on with things as best they can ahead of another possible surge.

Do you really believe if another surge is coming it will be prevented by not allowing controlled indoor dining?? Public transport, private indoor gatherings, hotels, schools and colleges all open - but no, it’s keeping indoor dining closed that will hold this virus at bay?

What you don't do is pour petrol on the flames of an already developing situation.

That's exactly what we did last Christmas.

DarkJager21

Snooker Loopy wrote: »

The same people who are demanding opening up now are the same people who demanded opening up last summer, last autumn, and last Christmas, and have been ranting ever since.

The let it rip merchants.

Forgive me if I don't have the same confidence in them as you do.

You mean the people who are demanding their lives back? How dare they want to return to normality :rolleyes:

kwestfan08

Snooker Loopy wrote: »

What you don't do is pour petrol on the flames of an already developing situation.

That's exactly what we did last Christmas.

So when would you open then? Like a proper 2019 opening no restrictions whatsoever.

Fandymo

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

The “Covid loves to party “ line...

ie to break it down, covid easily spreads

in warm humid enclosed settings

with poor ventilation

Lots of common surfaces and ppl handing glasses to each other and money changing hands

- such as pubs and bars -

especially when the punters are NOT observing distancing

Even more so if ppl have consumed alcohol (in a bar in ireland it’s pretty likely come on) are wasted and falling all over themselves and each other bellowing and singing etc

Now, Regardless of TH personal views on alcohol,

It’s kinda true though?

Pubs would be almost perfect spreading locations for this virus.

And yet hotel bars are allowed open? Strange that this deadly virus can tell the difference between a hotel bar and a pub bar!!

Snooker Loopy

DarkJager21 wrote: »

You mean the people who are demanding their lives back? How dare they want to return to normality :rolleyes:

I'm sure my father would demand his life back if he could, but Covid took him.

Fandymo

shocksy wrote: »

If it wasn't known before (however, it was to many) the covid pandemic, this country has a really serious drinking problem. I await the posters who will jump on this post. However, no matter what way people try and defend it, it is true and really disturbing. There are people frothing at the mouth waiting to be able to drink indoors again and get absolutely stupid drunk again. The whole "social argument" doesn't cut it. It's a lame excuse. There are plenty of other ways to be social. However, all most people can think of doing in this country to be social is getting $hit faced drunk. It's pure desperation in a way that alcohol is their only "fun" way of being social with friends and family etc. It's a sad state of affairs when all people can think of doing is getting into a pub again. Thankfully I don't fit into this part of the population. I'm not anti drinking before anyone says it, but there is serious alcohol addiction in this country that many won't dare admit too. There is also a major drinking problem in this country to the extent that certain cohorts of society won't acknowledge it and will fight to the death on internet forums to deny it exists.

Here was me reading the actual data that we were mid table in Europe for alcohol consumption and dropping year on year. You’ve opened my eyes Shocksy, the EU is obviously lying to us.

Hold on, am I drunk typing this?

seamus

FlubberJones wrote: »

There were no vaccines last year, we're not comparing like for like

Sure. But that doesn't alter the fact that we know opening indoor dining will increase cases. Vaccines mean that the nature of this increase is unknown, but it would be foolish to take the "ah sure be grand" approach.

Stormyteacup wrote: »

So you’re advocating for our ridiculously costly and damaging restrictions between waves, while the majority of other countries get on with things as best they can ahead of another possible surge.

I'm simply saying that the stated goal, as it has been since the end of February, is to avoid having to roll back any restrictions.
Opening indoor dining now, only to have to close it again in 4-6 weeks would be considerably more damaging and costly.
We're expecting another wave to be imminent. The plan is to vaccinate as fast as possible and ride this one through without having to close anything.

"Sure there's a wave coming anyway, we may as well open up before it hits", is a new one, I'll give you that.

niallo27

Snooker Loopy wrote: »

The same people who are demanding opening up now are the same people who demanded opening up last summer, last autumn, and last Christmas, and have been ranting ever since.

The let it rip merchants.

Forgive me if I don't have the same confidence in them as you do.

So would you have stayed in level 5 for the last 18 months. People trying to make a living and you are calling it ranting.

Fandymo

shocksy wrote: »

I'm not anti drinking before anyone says it, but there is serious alcohol addiction in this country.

shocksy wrote: »

The answer is yes. It would also help the serious drinking problem this country has.

Yeah, definitely not anti drinking haha. The mask slipped literally 1 post later.

DarkJager21

Snooker Loopy wrote: »

I'm sure my father would demand his life back if he could, but Covid took him.

Sorry for your loss, but it doesn't change my point.

Shelga

seamus wrote: »

The reopening of indoor dining last Summer, led directly to the surge in cases that required us to re-impose restrictions again in early October.

So, we would all agree that it would be foolish to just reopen indoor dining again in exactly the same way, because you'll just get the same results. And we're starting from a case load that's 10 times higher than it was last year.

In effect you're asking, "Why aren't we making the same mistakes we made last year?"

It's really irritating when you act like it's exactly the same situation now, with 67% of the population having received a vaccine.

We would not all agree that it would be foolish to reopen indoor dining in the exact same way, because it won't be in the exact same way, because the vaccine provides an extremely high level of protection against this disease, including the delta variant.

I'm guessing you have no skin in the game, in terms of your livelihood being completely destroyed?

ELM327

Increasing cases is largely irrelevant.

The only thing we need to be monitoring is the number in hospital and the number in ICU. If either of those get close to troublesome, then instant sharp lockdown with couple hours notice. (like recent happenings in Aus)

Case counts only help the case fetishists. I am fully vaccinated like a large minority of the country. A larger cohort have one dose and there are thousands getting vaccinated in pharmacies each day. I think its time to open up. Viruses cant tell the difference between a hotel residents bar and a normal bar.

TomSweeney

https://youtu.be/WhOg1wFyoDA

Good discussion on the situation in the UK and generally in the world moving on after this ...

Repo101

seamus wrote: »

Sure. But that doesn't alter the fact that we know opening indoor dining will increase cases. Vaccines mean that the nature of this increase is unknown, but it would be foolish to take the "ah sure be grand" approach.
I'm simply saying that the stated goal, as it has been since the end of February, is to avoid having to roll back any restrictions.
Opening indoor dining now, only to have to close it again in 4-6 weeks would be considerably more damaging and costly.
We're expecting another wave to be imminent. The plan is to vaccinate as fast as possible and ride this one through without having to close anything.

"Sure there's a wave coming anyway, we may as well open up before it hits", is a new one, I'll give you that.

Surely, at this point, it is more foolish to take a risk adverse approach and shut the majority of the hospitality sector perpetually because you don't know what is going to happen. I'm getting very tired of listening to people saying we are following the science when it's very clear that the "Irish" version of 'following the science' is contradicted by the majority of countries in the EU.

The reality is that the HSE is a joke and is not fit for purpose. If the issue is a potential increase in hospitalisations then our facilities need to be improved to accommodate that. Shutting down and hoping the vaccine is a silver bullet is not a policy.

It's amazing, that in the age of information, we have people supporting the horrible mismanagement from the likes of Tony Holohan and the government. Other countries wouldn't accept this level of incompetence but the little paddies will always take their medicine.

Russman

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Do you really believe if another surge is coming it will be prevented by not allowing controlled indoor dining?? Public transport, private indoor gatherings, hotels, schools and colleges all open - but no, it’s keeping indoor dining closed that will hold this virus at bay?

You make a fair point, but isn't indoor dining really just a polite way of saying indoor drinking ? I mean, if restaurants were allowed open tomorrow, which I think they probably should be - much more easily controlled environment than a pub lets be honest, the vintners and I suspect most on here would be steaming with rage. Instead of crying about a €9 meal like last year you'd have people saying that they "....can have a bottle of wine in XXXX with their dinner, but they can't go in next door and have a few pints, its a disgrace Joe....."

Anyway, in the race between the vaccines, the delta and the covid pass/cert, I think the vaccines win and we'll be open well before we have a workable covid pass solution.

seamus

Shelga wrote: »

It's really irritating when you act like it's exactly the same situation now, with 67% of the population having received a vaccine.

We would not all agree that it would be foolish to reopen indoor dining in the exact same way, because it won't be in the exact same way, because the vaccine provides an extremely high level of protection against this disease, including the delta variant.

As of yesterday, just over 51% of the total population have received a first dose, and 37% are fully vaccinated.

In terms of case management, that falls far below the threshold required to keep a lid on things. The most vulnerable cohorts are (mostly) complete, but that will only dampen the hospital impact from a surge in cases, it won't prevent ICUs and beds filling up again.

If we're going to relax restrictions with the aim of not tightening them again, then our approach needs to be more measured, and not hit-and-hope that "maybe it'll work out better than last year".

normanoffside

I have always said ISAG had some kind of motive beyond Covid. This tweet and article give us an idea of what their plans are.

Meanwhile they are still getting trotted out over here on every media source as ‘experts’

https://twitter.com/skepticalzebra/status/1411415649994395653?s=21

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1457950/lockdown-labour-scientists-plot-bit-more-restrictions

PTH2009

NPHET should told a thanks but no thanks when they tell the government there recommendations in a few weeks or better again be told they have no input of any kind for the Hospitality industry

Why should they skip todays talks but in a few weeks time swoop in and once again recommemd they close or use some farse of a covid pass system

_Kaiser_

Hurrache wrote: »

No, because there's many clowns who haven't a clue how to wear them effectively.

Or perhaps - and let's be honest - who don't particularly care/aren't worried anyway, and are only doing it so they're not fined rather than anything else.

For anyone in their 40s/50s or younger and generally healthy that's probably a reasonable position at this stage given vaccination progress and better information generally on who's at risk or not.

Don't Chute!

Snooker Loopy wrote: »

I see you have "Kilkenny: 35 and counting" on your profile.

You should then be fairly familiar with the concept of an injured player not playing in order that they will be able to play in the future.

How did Henry Shefflin trying to play on a severed cruciate in 2010 work out? He hobbled off after a few minutes and Kilkenny were well beaten.

The exact same principle is at work during Covid. Ireland as a society cannot play when it is injured. Returning to play before you're ready will likely mean a further worse injury lay off.

What on earth did I just read?! Simplistic nonsense. Although I wouldn’t be surprised if this is the way the government are looking at it too.

DarkJager21

seamus wrote: »

As of yesterday, just over 51% of the total population have received a first dose, and 37% are fully vaccinated.

In terms of case management, that falls far below the threshold required to keep a lid on things. The most vulnerable cohorts are (mostly) complete, but that will only dampen the hospital impact from a surge in cases, it won't prevent ICUs and beds filling up again.

If we're going to relax restrictions with the aim of not tightening them again, then our approach needs to be more measured, and not hit-and-hope that "maybe it'll work out better than last year".

First we had to "flatten the curve", then we had to "hold firm" while our "health service" increased capacity. Then we had to "hold firm" while the vulnerable were vaccinated, now we have to "hold firm" again in case the Delta variant overwhelms the hospitals.

What exactly did the health service do with the time and money provided to them during the above if we are being told the exact same thing again?

Vicxas

normanoffside wrote: »

I have always said ISAG had some kind of motive beyond Covid. This tweet and article give us an idea of what their plans are.

Meanwhile they are still getting trotted out over here on every media source as ‘experts’

https://twitter.com/skepticalzebra/status/1411415649994395653?s=21

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1457950/lockdown-labour-scientists-plot-bit-more-restrictions

They're experts in the way the Iona Institute are experts on same sex marriage and abortions.