Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Richard Hillman

MrMusician18 wrote: »

?? The country IS open.
Shops✓
Construction✓
Pubs ✓
Restaurants✓
Cinema✓
Sports✓
Free internal movement✓
Personal services✓

You'd hardly expect any of the above to be available if the country was closed. You need to return to reality tbh.

When do you think NPHET will lift all restrictions?

Sobit1964

Deleted User wrote: »

How was oxygen flow restricted?

Well.... You have a mouth and nose.... Then something goes in front of it, if it restricts the flow of ambient Nolans, its probably restricting other stuff.

BTW

I approve of restricting Nolans.

MrMusician18

Richard Hillman wrote: »

When do you think NPHET will lift all restrictions?

NPHET didn't impose restrictions. The government did.

Indoor hospitality for the vaccinated will likely return on July 19th or the week after, assuming that the HSE can manage to roll out the covid vax app - not guaranteed due to the hack but all the stops are pulled in order to get it out.

When will the remaining restrictions be fully eased? I don't know, likely when we are approaching herd immunity. So back to the office in late August along with masks and social distancing reduced to an advisory.

growleaves

Deleted User wrote: »

How was oxygen flow restricted?

There's some evidence that wearing face masks may reduce blood oxygenation:

Protective Face Masks: Effect on the Oxygenation and Heart Rate Status of Oral Surgeons during Surgery

Preliminary report on surgical mask induced deoxygenation during major surgery

growleaves

growleaves wrote: »

There's some evidence that wearing face masks may reduce blood oxygenation:

Protective Face Masks: Effect on the Oxygenation and Heart Rate Status of Oral Surgeons during Surgery

Preliminary report on surgical mask induced deoxygenation during major surgery

Results: In all 20 surgeons wearing FFP2 covered by surgical masks

Exactly the same conditions as the average person in Tesco then?

growleaves

raind,

I have seen people walking around Dublin in FFP2 masks.

Are you willing the consider the evidence or not?

It isn't a gotcha game, if you're concerned about health effects from e.g. long covid then why aren't you concerned about (potential) health effects from restrictions?

Is it because you're worried that that will undermine your political support for said restrictions?

Sobit1964

Sobit1964 wrote: »

Well.... You have a mouth and nose.... Then something goes in front of it, if it restricts the flow of ambient Nolans, its probably restricting other stuff.

BTW

I approve of restricting Nolans.

O2 molecule diameters- 0.0000000346mm
Aerosolised respiratory droplet diameter > 0.0010mm.
Nolan diameters > 2 Tubridys

Sobit1964

Deleted User wrote: »

O2 molecule diameters- 0.0000000346mm
Aerosolised respiratory droplet diameter > 0.0010mm.
Nolan diameters > 2 Tubridys

Love it!

growleaves

growleaves wrote: »

raind,

I have seen people walking around Dublin in FFP2 masks.

Are you willing the consider the evidence or not?

It isn't a gotcha game, if you're concerned about health effects from e.g. long covid then why aren't you concerned about (potential) health effects from restrictions?

Is it because you're worried that that will undermine your political support for said restrictions?

First - I am not concerned about long Covid

Second

Conclusions: In conclusion, wearing an FFP2 covered by a surgical mask induces a reduction in circulating O2 concentrations without clinical relevance

gozunda

acequion wrote: »

I haven't seen anybody go as far as you claim and those that have are quickly banned. If you can't handle him being called stuff like Saint Tony or other mild nicknames then maybe you shouldn't be on this thread. I've read brilliant arguments on this thread from both sides of the debate. Holohan is a very public figure so it's inevitable that he'll be much talked about here and inevitable that a lot of it will be very disparaging.

Ah come on now - some of the descriptors have bordered on the rabid and utterly bizarre tbf. Really no need for that kind of thing and no - I'm not a 'fan' just I dont tend to make either idols or hate figures of those in the public sphere. And on that I hope Necro won't mind if I quote him directly

Calling people names such as Dr. Death or Saint Tony etc. only weaken your argument, it's the lowest form of wit.

And that's about it ...

MOR316

gozunda wrote: »

And that's about it ...

I disagree with this part...

Not accusing you but, I've seen many posters on here take up you side of the debate and we've all seen them try to patronise them, insult them and try to embarrass them, all in the name of making one feel good about themselves.
A Moderator on here yesterday tried to one up me and belittle me by highlighting a joke I made.
You might not particapate in it but, I've seen you back it.

It's not a case of people calling Holohan, "Dr. Death" and then try to use everything to belittle others who you disagree with it.
People need to face facts with the guy, Tony Holohan put himself in this position, he's been wrong on several occasions and he has hurt a lot of people, going all the way back to 2009.

gozunda

MOR316 wrote: »

I disagree with this part...

Not accusing you but, I've seen many posters on here take up you side of the debate and we've all seen them try to patronise them, insult them and try to embarrass them, all in the name of making one feel good about themselves. A Moderator on here yesterday tried to one up me and belittle me by highlighting a joke I made. You might not particapate in it but, I've seen you back it.

It's not a case of people calling Holohan, "Dr. Death" and then try to use everything to belittle others who you disagree with it.
Face facts, Tony Holohan put himself in this position, he's been wrong on several occasions and he has hurt a lot of people, going all the way back to 2009.

Eh? Which part exactly?

I think you're getting mixed up tbf

The above comment refers to the issue of calling public figures people names such as Dr. Death or Saint Tony etc. And the fact its a low form of wit at best.

But no I really don't understand what you're referring to in reference to my comment.

MOR316

gozunda wrote: »

Which part?

"Saying Dr. Death weakens the argument" part

It doesn't. I can't understand how people have forgotten his dodgy actions and past since 2009.

It's not speculative, it's a fact! People get emotive over it but, they're not saying anything wrong.

I genuinely dare anyone on here, to go to someone who took the swine flu vaccine in 2010, to someone like Vicky Phelan, to someone whose life has been crippled thanks to his "recommendations," to someone who is still on a waiting list thanks to his misplaced ego and say, "insulting him cheapens your argument." I would genuinely give them €1000 euro if they did.

Bottom line is, they wouldn't!

Tony Holohan is what he is! The denial is insane. He put himself in this position through his actions, therefore he's gonna cop the flak! End of! There is no defending it!

MM, Leo and SD are not spared so why should he be? Facts don't lie!

storker

MrMusician18 wrote: »

?? The country IS open.
Shops✓
Construction✓
Pubs ✓
Restaurants✓
Cinema✓
Sports✓
Free internal movement✓
Personal services✓

You'd hardly expect any of the above to be available if the country was closed. You need to return to reality tbh.

Ironic isn't it? Those who were so quick to accuse others of having no lives and being in hiding are so caught up with their outrage that they don't appear to have noticed the lightening of restrictions that less wound up people are taking advantage of. Pull your heads out of the thread, gents...

MOR316

storker wrote: »

Ironic isn't it? Those who were so quick to accuse others of having no lives and being in hiding are so caught up with their outrage that they don't appear to have noticed the lightening of restrictions that less wound up people are taking advantage of. Pull your heads out of the thread, gents...

"I'm alright so haha **** the rest of you"

gozunda

MOR316 wrote: »

"Saying Dr. Death weakens the argument" part

It doesn't. I can't understand how people have forgotten his dodgy actions and past since 2009.

It's not speculative, it's a fact! People get emotive over it but, they're not saying anything wrong.

I genuinely dare anyone on here, to go to someone who took the swine flu vaccine in 2010, to someone like Vicky Phelan, to someone whose life has been crippled thanks to his "recommendations," to someone who is still on a waiting list thanks to his misplaced ego and say, "insulting him cheapens your argument." I would genuinely give them €1000 euro if they did.

Bottom line is, they wouldn't!

Tony Holohan is what he is! The denial is insane. He put himself in this position through his actions, therefore he's gonna cop the flak! End of! There is no defending it!

MM, Leo and SD are not spared so why should he be? Facts don't lie!

Not me saying that btw. I'm was quoting it. But yes I happen to agree with that idea regardless of who the public figure is.

MrMusician18

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Exactly. I know the internet does anger and rage better than anywhere but the past few days has been ridiculous. Its been a completely ott reaction to what - the restriction on indoor hospitality.

Just get on with it.

There is always a few, no matter how much something is explained to them, they miss the point. Whether its deliberate, or they really arent that bright at all, perhaps both....who knows :rolleyes:

MOR316

gozunda wrote: »

Not me saying that btw. I'm was quoting quoting it btw. See first page of this thread.

I said in my first response that I wasn't accusing you or anything of the kind. I haven't read anything in relation to you defending him. I was venting and mean't overall

As per my post, I find it insane

storker

storker wrote: »

Ironic isn't it? Those who were so quick to accuse others of having no lives and being in hiding are so caught up with their outrage that they don't appear to have noticed the lightening of restrictions that less wound up people are taking advantage of. Pull your heads out of the thread, gents...

Its still like IngSoc compare to other countries. Pull your own head out.

Degag

MOR316 wrote: »

I said in my first response that I wasn't accusing you or anything of the kind. I haven't read anything in relation to you defending him. I was venting and mean't overall

As per my post, I find it insane

I find it insane that you or anyone else can defend it and/or partake in it.

There is outcry everytime a footballer is abused online when they score an own goal, miss a chance, get a red card etc. Celebrities get all manner of abuse. Do you agree with that?

Because this is no different.

It is possible to be critical without being insulting.

Ballynally

From another thread:

Originally Posted by carveone:

I spent the last hour or so looking at the Green Pass specification documents as they're public. It's just a bit of JSON with your name and dob and what your status is. That's sha256 signed, compressed and converted into a QR code. It's a bit waffly but then EU stuff usually is.

To verify, you take the QR code (there are free libraries, it's a doddle on a phone now), retrieve the data, get the public key and validate the content. Easy. If you've ever checked the validity of a Windows executable by checking its signature, it's the same process.

In my (experienced) opinion, it would take an experienced person a few days to set up a QR scanner to validate the certs. I say that because there is code and libraries already on github to do it! And it'd take a few days to get a QR scanner from Amazon (starting at 70 quid).

So why hasn't it been done? No idea. You are validating a data blob. It's not dependent on a HSE database. The only dependency is the certificate chain from the EU root cert but jesus, that's nothing.

If you were sufficiently disinterested in writing code, there's Python code done already. If you weren't arsed in doing any of it, you could ring up another country and ask them to send you theirs.

It's a joke.



The other way around - generating the green cert - involves an entity with access to the certificate private key who can sign the cert. This *could* have been done by trusting the vaccinator to submit a properly formatted JSON file to a server that would sign it on the spot and send back the result. Instant QR code. Done. Cheerio, get on a plane. Bye...

My brother in law got his jab (one shot Jansen) and QR code simultaneously in Romania. Romania for godsake!

But nooooo. I remember some poor woman in the doctor's surgery taking all the information each person gave her and typing that into an Excel spreadsheet. I suppose that was uploaded somewhere at some point to some data centre that had the ransomware event to deal with.

So maybe the way it's being done is to collate all these masses of vaccination data, cross reference that against the PPS numbers to get the name/sirname used in your passport (if they don't match, it would be irritating) and then... what.... magic I suppose. Post out a QR code. Dick about with mygov.ie. Who the hell knows. I certainly dont" (end quote).

Everything could have been in place already, including a QR code on an app/phone, ready for travel on july 19 and as vaccine evidence.
Another balls up..

seamus

Ballynally wrote: »

Everything could have been in place already, including a QR code on an app/phone, ready for travel on july 19 and as vaccine evidence.

According to some randomer who could set up a QR scanner himself in a couple of days, but is very fuzzy on the actual details of what the setup at the HSE is.

Functionally, the difficulty is in generating our certs, and the constraints on available IT resources in the HSE:

This *could* have been done by trusting the vaccinator to submit a properly formatted JSON file to a server that would sign it on the spot and send back the result

Where both the computer in use by the vaccinator and the server which generates the certs are unavailable or otherwise not ready.

Socially, there will be resistance against the use of travel certs for domestic use. It's akin to Gardai demanding your passport if you want to travel between counties. So "you will need your covid travel cert if you want to eat indoors", will cause much....controversy. Even though, "Only vaccinated people can eat indoors" is exactly the same thing, it doesn't have the same authoritarian connotations.

is_that_so

Ballynally wrote: »

From another thread:

Originally Posted by carveone:

I spent the last hour or so looking at the Green Pass specification documents as they're public. It's just a bit of JSON with your name and dob and what your status is. That's sha256 signed, compressed and converted into a QR code. It's a bit waffly but then EU stuff usually is.

To verify, you take the QR code (there are free libraries, it's a doddle on a phone now), retrieve the data, get the public key and validate the content. Easy. If you've ever checked the validity of a Windows executable by checking its signature, it's the same process.

In my (experienced) opinion, it would take an experienced person a few days to set up a QR scanner to validate the certs. I say that because there is code and libraries already on github to do it! And it'd take a few days to get a QR scanner from Amazon (starting at 70 quid).

So why hasn't it been done? No idea. You are validating a data blob. It's not dependent on a HSE database. The only dependency is the certificate chain from the EU root cert but jesus, that's nothing.

If you were sufficiently disinterested in writing code, there's Python code done already. If you weren't arsed in doing any of it, you could ring up another country and ask them to send you theirs.

It's a joke.



The other way around - generating the green cert - involves an entity with access to the certificate private key who can sign the cert. This *could* have been done by trusting the vaccinator to submit a properly formatted JSON file to a server that would sign it on the spot and send back the result. Instant QR code. Done. Cheerio, get on a plane. Bye...

My brother in law got his jab (one shot Jansen) and QR code simultaneously in Romania. Romania for godsake!

But nooooo. I remember some poor woman in the doctor's surgery taking all the information each person gave her and typing that into an Excel spreadsheet. I suppose that was uploaded somewhere at some point to some data centre that had the ransomware event to deal with.

So maybe the way it's being done is to collate all these masses of vaccination data, cross reference that against the PPS numbers to get the name/sirname used in your passport (if they don't match, it would be irritating) and then... what.... magic I suppose. Post out a QR code. Dick about with mygov.ie. Who the hell knows. I certainly dont" (end quote).

Everything could have been in place already, including a QR code on an app/phone, ready for travel on july 19 and as vaccine evidence.
Another balls up..

IT person being unhappy and thinking they can always do it better shocker! A whole lot of the process was the so-called waffly language that addresses all those pesky legal issues, GDPR and any national changes required in 27 countries so you can throw your version together in your coffee break.

FileNotFound

Without picking any side as I don't have the knowledge to really do it.

Are people concerned at all by the commentary from Chris Whitty - rudimentary version being that opening now and taking some hit from the virus to get to real herd immunity per-say during the summer months is the best way to avoid an overwhelmed health system later in the year. Opening when schools is off is also preferable to prevent a sudden sharper surge,
It seems he is indicating that waiting for more vaccines alone will not stop a wave of cases and naturally some hospital cases will arise (assume a large enough number if he imagines it will impact the health service) at the same time as flu which we can expect to be around and other winter illnesses.

If (and yes its another if) he is correct and we are further behind in our vaccination program the concept above leaves me thinking we may well be in for another xmas of lockdowns and limitations here.

While I actually was not in the support full reopening group at all and still am not (masks and some social distancing for the rest of the year would not be too bad). I guess I am now wondering what more stumbling blocks lie ahead for us. Will certain sectors essentially remain shut into next year?

is_that_so

FileNotFound wrote: »

Without picking any side as I don't have the knowledge to really do it.

Are people concerned at all by the commentary from Chris Whitty - rudimentary version being that opening now and taking some hit from the virus to get to real herd immunity per-say during the summer months is the best way to avoid an overwhelmed health system later in the year. Opening when schools is off is also preferable to prevent a sudden sharper surge,
It seems he is indicating that waiting for more vaccines alone will not stop a wave of cases and naturally some hospital cases will arise (assume a large enough number if he imagines it will impact the health service) at the same time as flu which we can expect to be around and other winter illnesses.

If (and yes its another if) he is correct and we are further behind in our vaccination program the concept above leaves me thinking we may well be in for another xmas of lockdowns and limitations here.

While I actually was not in the support full reopening group at all and still am not (masks and some social distancing for the rest of the year would not be too bad). I guess I am now wondering what more stumbling blocks lie ahead for us. Will certain sectors essentially remain shut into next year?

The UK have always had a bit of yen for let 'er rip and Whitty is not your abundance of caution go-to man. We can't afford to go to next year with large sections of the economy shut down. For the winter, mask wearing is probably a given, but may be optional. Our measure should now be effects on the health system and it will be an enormously tough sell to convince a vaccinated public that it is necessary. I really don't see it happening.

the kelt

FileNotFound wrote: »

Without picking any side as I don't have the knowledge to really do it.

Are people concerned at all by the commentary from Chris Whitty - rudimentary version being that opening now and taking some hit from the virus to get to real herd immunity per-say during the summer months is the best way to avoid an overwhelmed health system later in the year. Opening when schools is off is also preferable to prevent a sudden sharper surge,
It seems he is indicating that waiting for more vaccines alone will not stop a wave of cases and naturally some hospital cases will arise (assume a large enough number if he imagines it will impact the health service) at the same time as flu which we can expect to be around and other winter illnesses.

If (and yes its another if) he is correct and we are further behind in our vaccination program the concept above leaves me thinking we may well be in for another xmas of lockdowns and limitations here.

While I actually was not in the support full reopening group at all and still am not (masks and some social distancing for the rest of the year would not be too bad). I guess I am now wondering what more stumbling blocks lie ahead for us. Will certain sectors essentially remain shut into next year?

The thing is despite the idiotic comments you see of a group being called the “let it rip” cohort and the selfishness of the “I’m alright Jack so just get in with it” commentators most people just want to be able to sit down for a cup of bloody coffee without getting pissed on and heaven forbid maybe even have a meal or a pint.

Ye know a small bit of normality, just a bit more than what we currently have.

That’s it and the frustration is with all the vaccinations, 50 in hospitals in the entire country you cannot do that.

All at a time every other country can!

And still, even still they’re people who just refuse to question and belittle those that do because through their own selfishness it doesn’t affect them.

Would it be great to open up fully, sure it would be great but it simply doesn’t make sense imho to do that yet.

Would it be nice to have a pint or a cup of coffee indoors, sure it would and it simply makes absolutely zero sense that we can’t do that yet.

That’s where most people are at imho.

seamus

FileNotFound wrote: »

Are people concerned at all by the commentary from Chris Whitty - rudimentary version being that opening now and taking some hit from the virus to get to real herd immunity per-say during the summer months is the best way to avoid an overwhelmed health system later in the year.

The situation is different in the UK because their vax programme is about to diverge from ours by a bit. Their longer dosing schedule means they don't expect to be finished until October, and they are expecting to add in a booster shot programme for older cohorts in September.

In short, they will have a larger portion of their population who are vulnerable and for longer than we will. So we have no need to use real infections to boost our levels of herd immunity.

I also expect that the political environment is very different in the UK. Boris makes a decision about what he wants to do and Whitty either rows and in puts the best spin he can on it, or he finds himself a new job.
Whatever about the snide comments in terms of the tail wagging the dog, NPHET and the Government here haven't been slow to disagree with eachother in public.

Ballynally

is_that_so wrote: »

IT person being unhappy and thinking they can always do it better shocker! A whole lot of the process was the so-called waffly language that addresses all those pesky legal issues, GDPR and any national changes required in 27 countries so you can throw your version together in your coffee break.

Im not sure what you are exactly hinting at. Please elaborate..

IF you are deriding the poster, his comment was made in the context of the public/open source IT set in place on european level prior to each country's implementation. This to streamline the whole process so each country could hook up to the system w their version. France did it on june 6, before the official start on july 1.
That this system is not yet in place in Ireland, the only country in the EU, reeks of incompetence or deliberate obstruction.
Or both.
The irish government seems rather good in delaying just about anything.
They can easily do that by not smoothing out the kinks in the cable and then blaming it on something in the system, like the HSE hack.

If you agree w the poster i obviously have no point to make

is_that_so

Ballynally wrote: »

Im not sure what you are exactly hinting at. Please elaborate..

IF you are deriding the poster, his comment was made in the context of the public/open source IT set in place on european level prior to each country's implementation. This to streamline the whole process so each country could hook up to the systen w their version.
That this system is not in place yet in Ireland, the only country in the EU, reeks of incompetence or deliberate obstruction.
Or both.

If you agree w the poster i obviously have no point to make

The point is this is a whole lot more than just banging out a bit of code. You may call it incompetence but rollouts take time and it's generally sensible to take the time to get it right.

paw patrol

seamus wrote: »

Whatever about the snide comments in terms of the tail wagging the dog, NPHET and the Government here haven't been slow to disagree with eachother in public.

this isn't true.
Leo tried and then found himself in some bother with stories in the media. FF backed him for the price of not speaking out of turn again. Since MM is a devotee of NPHET there is nobody in government to speak out against NPHET.
You need to trawl the back benchers to reach marc mcsharry .

the only push back against NPHET have been from independents like Michael McNamara, Mattie McGrath and occasionally Peader Tobin of aontu.
I understand that each Independent has limited speaking time so I'm gonna guess that they allow McNamara to use their time cos he does have a lovely way of speaking. So I'll would be hesitant to be critical of them them all

The opposition like SF , SDs , the left have been terrible the whole crisis .
Real nanny state clowns selling even more fear than the previous day.

Labour were in that group but gotta hand it to AK47 he did a good deed the other day attacking the government . credit where it's due